China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan

[Viper0011.]

France has assured India of deliveries of their Rafales starting 2017.

My sources told me from the Pakistani side that don't you worry, either J-10B or the SU-35's will be coming around the SAME time, and with some -16's used with low flying hours on them.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

@MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing. And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35

Are they (PAF) waiting For J-10B or J-10C ?? Plus how come J-10 is Pakistan China Joint Venture?

Plus the Possible chance of TOT and manufacturing? i don't see that happening

 

[New World]

@MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing. And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35

what JV of j-10??

@MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing. And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35

what's the problem in it if J-10 is JV?? and why china not want to sell j-10 with tot and manufacturing rights??

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing. And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35

Very interesting... New engine for JF-17 is ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_M88 .... It will be powering the JF-17 B (twin seater). Already known...
If it is some other engine that it could be possible that JF-17 is going to Saudi Arabia and the engine that is going to power it would be Euro Jet.

J-10 B & C is a JV that was also conformed when an initial order for 36 aircraft was placed. China does not want to give TOT for such a low number but if PAF increases the order then it would come. Secondly there were news regarding an other place where PAF would be manufacturing aircraft once export orders are obtained and the same facility would have the infrastructure to manufacture the J10's.. This was also stated earlier nothing new.

There is also news that PAF has been testing some Chinese types for some time and some have also landed for the PAF as Sir @MastanKhan already stated.

SU-35 MOU is signed between China and Russia for 60+ aircraft but China does not want them so it is asking PAF to take these. This would give Pakistan and China the latest Russian Stealth technology and newer engine. How ever PAF is looking for an aircraft that the PN could offord and is capable of operating hence they are inclined towards the J-15's It would really be interesting if The Russians offer Pakistan SU-24's as well then they could really have a nice combo. This way the carrier progration would not be limited of PN and also PAF.

There is one scenario where the J-10 could end up joining PAF and that is if additional F-16s just cannot be had. In the medium weight category the PAF already has a solid system (F-16), so it makes sense that it'd build upon the existing infrastructure layout for C/D and A/B by procuring as many used and new airframes as possible.

But while this is the obvious choice, it is puzzling that PAF hasn't really taken this route. Seems to me there is an actual political hold-up on the U.S side. Sure, let's assume PAF doesn't have the money for new frames or even the funds to upgrade old ones, but why not just procure the frames as is like it did with Jordan? We know PAF has financial issues, but I seriously don't think it'd be as bad as being unable to buy fighters for $10-15 million a unit.

If the PAF seriously thinks there is a need to keep building up the medium weight category and not perhaps split it more extremely between heavy (Su-35) and light (JF-17) fighters, then it could end up with J-10 (or J-10B). The other option might be the MiG-35, which could have engine commonality with JF-17!

PAF would rely to much on the US and the maximum numbers of F-16's would not exceed 110 aircraft. PAF is looking to replace F-7's and Mirages along with adding a dedicated air-superiority fighter aircraft. PAF knows it can not operatate the F-15s hence they wanted the F-18 but the ones that were offered were not up to the standards that PAF was looking. Hence F-16 that PAF has at present would be enough till a proper fifth gen is available. the F-16's would then be replaced. This would most likely turn Pakistan towards the Turkish fighter x and the Korean Fighter x as they would be using this engine.

My sources told me from the Pakistani side that don't you worry, either J-10B or the SU-35's will be coming around the SAME time, and with some -16's used with low flying hours on them.

The F-16 you are mentioning are the ones that are stored in the US. They can only be available to PAF if Pakistan joins the War against ISIS. Then only the US parliament could opt for providing PAF. PAF could also be looking towards getting the F-35's.

Are they (PAF) waiting For J-10B or J-10C ?? Plus how come J-10 is Pakistan China Joint Venture?

Plus the Possible chance of TOT and manufacturing? i don't see that happening

PAF is looking east then west because PAF and PN knows that it much more simpler to deal with the Asian.

 

[v9s]

BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR, because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's

PAF was indeed BVR capable before the AMRAAMs came into play. Our F-7's are BVR capable. In-fact I recall Pakistan developing a BVR missile with the help of South-Africa (I think) called the "Red-Cresent." It was leaked on this very forum, back when defence.pk was lax on intel security.

@MastanKhan
About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese

How is J-10b a joint venture? I think the PAF personnel must have his vocab mixed up. The J-10A was improved upon with some input from PAF for the J-10B back when we were interested in inducting it. That doesn't make it a Joint Venture though - we didn't put up any money for it.

 

[zebra7]

1) Rafale's RCS isn't .1m2. Its much more than that. Rafale is a twin engine plane......the comparison with a Mirage 2000, was: (1): for marketing, and (2): frontal only.
US radars (TPS 77) and other advanced Chinese radars Pakistan has, are 3-D. Frontal RCS means nothing......try about .7m2 for Rafale, which is still very good for its size. If you were flying against Sudan or Nigeria or Bogota, you might get .1m2 due to older radars being used.

2) The J-10B has around .8m2 to 1m2, depending on the configuration (I am quoting A2A and frontal only). Add heavier bombs or anti-ship missiles, it adds up an additional 1.5m2 or slightly above. So overall, around 2m2-3m2, depending upon the loadout. J-10A has a bigger RCS around 4-5m2.

1. How can RCS changes with the Radar of sudan,nigeria,bogata and with the pakistani radar ??? This is the first time i am hearing that. Can you give me some more information on that.

 

[Viper0011.]

1. How can RCS changes with the Radar of sudan,nigeria,bogata and with the pakistani radar ??? This is the first time i am hearing that. Can you give me some more information on that.

Did you just ask me this? Where is the actual "question"?? How about you re-read what I am saying, re-think before posting just silly statements and ACTUALLY ask a question?

I specifically mentioned the TYPE of Radar being used and other 3-D radars. What does TPS-77 has to do with Pakistan or Nigeria?? We are talking about its mechanics and how it works, you can put it on top of your house and it'll work the same way!!!

If you really want me to respond to a post, ask something that makes sense. Otherwise, don't bother in wasting a post of yours and a post of mine in response!

 

[zebra7]

Did you just ask me this? Where is the actual "question"?? How about you re-read what I am saying, re-think before posting just silly statements and ACTUALLY ask a question?

I specifically mentioned the TYPE of Radar being used and other 3-D radars. What does TPS-77 has to do with Pakistan or Nigeria?? We are talking about its mechanics and how it works, you can put it on top of your house and it'll work the same way!!!

If you really want me to respond to a post, ask something that makes sense. Otherwise, don't bother in wasting a post of yours and a post of mine in response!

Oh don't take it too seriously buddy.
What I know which may be wrong is Radar that provide only range and bearing information are referred to as
two-dimensional(2D) radars. Radar sets that supply range, bearing, and height are called three-dimensional radars.

and RCS is Radar cross section is the size and ability of a target to reflect radar energy.

σ = 4·π·r2·Sr /St
where
σ: measure of the target's ability to reflect radar signals in direction of the radar receiver, in [m²]
St: power density that is intercepted by the target, in [W/m²]
Sr: scattered power density in the range r, in [W/m²]

So the Rcs will depend on the material of the plane, its gemetory, the frequency of the radar and the direction of the illuminating source of the radar.

1. Just want to know how could the use of the better radar could increase the rcs so much.
2. How are you getting all these frontal RCS values of the fighter planes which you have mentioned above period; if the radars quality plays such big effect in the calculation of RCS because when the measurement is been done by different countries is there any default and standard radar for the sake of unformity.
3. When no OEM, pilot officially gives out any value of the RCS how did you get all these values I mean the source.

 

[zebra7]

One Point BVR isnt at simple as much you guys make it , BVR if fired from long distance it also gives opponent chance to evade because distance comes in play , To cover that number of Missiles are fired but at with a time gap so even if your opponent evades your 1st missile , he wont be able to lose 2nd or 3rd because he will lose his energy in evading 1st missile
Now Coming to Pakistan and India , US is depending alot on BVR Or other long range stand off missiles because of the its location , in Pakistan in india equation it will result will come in seconds and mostly it will be WVR



Now J10 and J11 are good platforms no doubt about it But All you guys who are talking if india gets Rafale Paf will go for j10 or j11 , No doubt Rafale is one of the best 4.5 gen jet available in market , Can j10 or J11 match in its performance
Because as when ever someone talks about air battle most of the members here talking about MKI and migs RCS , even there were some news about J11 has less rcs than Sukhoi family still going for that ,
You Wont See Rafale joining IAF before 2018 to 2019 So best time to upgrade fleet with a newer jet and than some same funds to go on shopping

For the Air superiority Aircraft BVR plays the primrary role and its superiority goes down with the distance decrease between the two adversories. But the problem is that the ratio of sucessfull BVR hitting the target is not very good right now. It can be jammed, or fool with different tactics. A good examples of tactics are to out manuver the BVR missile because lot of people thinks the BVR like AIM120 with 40g at mach 4 could not be maneuver with the 9 g at 0.9 mach. It is because the BVR travelling at mach 4 have big turn radius than the fighter plane at slower speed and maneuver e.g barel roll, jinking, turn back and dive etc etc can be employed to evade the missile. But the problem is with the timing with which the pilot have to make the decision prompt because the missile is travelling to him at very high speed and could get only 20 sec to think and decide. WVR missile such as python 5 is something that is very very difficult to evade actually. Its agile, seeker and intelligent computer makes him something very very deadly and the only tactics with that is only flares. Off bore sight missile like python, aim 9x, r73 a-11 archer cued with the helmet mounted targeting makes it even more complicated and the deadly weapon.

Hi,

The next few year we will see the emergence of a different kind of aircraft. A re-furbished 3 gen aircraft with the technology and weapons of the 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft. We are actually seeing some of them now.

The KFIR with and aesa upgrade------the BLK 52 F 16 with an aesa upgrade----the mirage 2000 with an aesa upgrade----the JH7B with an aesa upgrade.

All these aircraft will get the state of the art avionics, radars, jammers and missiles and smart bombs. 5th gen aircraft are extremely expensive to manufacture---maintain and operate---so these older updated aircraft will do most of the leg work.

Right now we can only speculate---but with the high kill ratios of these modern day BVR missiles---it will not be very easy to assess what the first couple of days of air war look like.

The Tornados could launch WVR range missiles as well as BVR missiles----along with their regular weapons load----this just gave them some tools to fight back with.

The problem over here is with coming to grips with the technology---the conventional wisdom takes technology only so far----after that they just don't want to accept its powers and strengths.

So---let us put two aircraft side by side---A J11 and a JH7B-----both aircraft have the same aesa radar---bth have the same number of SD10B BVR missiles-----both are facing a similar oncoming target at the same distance-----both are going to launch at the same time---so why would the results are going to be different---no reason to under similar circumstances---because it is the radar lock and the missile doing the talking and not the aircraft---which is just a conduit of delivery at BVR.

Great post mastan Bhai but my view little bit different. This is based on the tests and analysis by the Japanese airforce and found that it is much better to have slow simple cheaper plane with loads of bvr say 20 bvr which would be guided and getting the passive data va link with a single high end fighter plane with superior radars and ew sensors. In other words it will only act as the load loader carrying bvr and firing the baragge of missile then to have all high quality 4.5 gen fighter planes.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

PAF is looking east then west because PAF and PN knows that it much more simpler to deal with the Asian.

I know that.... But the thing that J-10 is a joint venture is shocking one for me..

Wish we can just buy 100 of em and Su-35 to replace Mirages.....

100 J-10
76 F-16
150 JF-17
30 JF + 18 Su-35 for Navy
18 Su-25 for PAF

we have a Damn good Airforce
some dreams

 

[HAIDER]

PAF was indeed BVR capable before the AMRAAMs came into play. Our F-7's are BVR capable. In-fact I recall Pakistan developing a BVR missile with the help of South-Africa (I think) called the "Red-Cresent." It was leaked on this very forum, back when defence.pk was lax on intel security.



How is J-10b a joint venture? I think the PAF personnel must have his vocab mixed up. The J-10A was improved upon with some input from PAF for the J-10B back when we were interested in inducting it. That doesn't make it a Joint Venture though - we didn't put up any money for it.

This news was surface during Musharraf time too. That PAF engineers are working on Chinese Delta wing project. Musharraf made trip to J10 complex.

There is one scenario where the J-10 could end up joining PAF and that is if additional F-16s just cannot be had. In the medium weight category the PAF already has a solid system (F-16), so it makes sense that it'd build upon the existing infrastructure layout for C/D and A/B by procuring as many used and new airframes as possible.

But while this is the obvious choice, it is puzzling that PAF hasn't really taken this route. Seems to me there is an actual political hold-up on the U.S side. Sure, let's assume PAF doesn't have the money for new frames or even the funds to upgrade old ones, but why not just procure the frames as is like it did with Jordan? We know PAF has financial issues, but I seriously don't think it'd be as bad as being unable to buy fighters for $10-15 million a unit.

If the PAF seriously thinks there is a need to keep building up the medium weight category and not perhaps split it more extremely between heavy (Su-35) and light (JF-17) fighters, then it could end up with J-10 (or J-10B). The other option might be the MiG-35, which could have engine commonality with JF-17!

Well, PAF wants J10 , they already did lot of homework for this plane and they won't let it go easily. PAF has put lots of man hours for the development of htis plane. So, TOT is due and plane has lots of room for modification .

 

[Last Samuri]

Vipers post

My sources told me from the Pakistani side that don't you worry, either J-10B or the SU-35's will be coming around the SAME time, and with some -16's used with low flying hours on them.

BRAND NEW WARPLANES from both china & Russia

J10 or SU35

Where you finding the $4 billion.

INFACT is there even this much money in Pakistan. itself

 

[Viper0011.]

Vipers post

BRAND NEW WARPLANES from both china & Russia

J10 or SU35. Where you finding the $4 billion.

INFACT is there even this much money in Pakistan. itself

Why do you lie so much and mis-quote posts for your propaganda based benefits???? I never said " brand new planes from both Russia and China". What are you? From some Indian media outlet, focused on JUST sensation and hype so others can "like" your posts? Those people are called "Attention Wh***** " in American English

Read the post before you respond. And JUST to set the record, Pakistan has over $ 20 billion in her savings account and its growing at an average of .4-.5 billion a month. So $ 4 billion is a piece of cake if they REALLY have to pay cash. But they will easily get loans like India and everyone else.

The Pakistan you knew back in 2012, is not there anymore. The Pakistan today is over her path to be the top 15th economy in the next two decades. A similar journey that India took due to Bill Clinton's help. You guys should put his picture above Nehru and Gandhi as he's really the one who with a single hand (and his Presidential powers), worked very hard and resulted in outsourcing billions of jobs and investments to India.

So you are not where you are because of something special that "India" did or the 'Indian Nation" did. You are there because of the Western investments that went into the Indian system. Similarly, Pakistan has started on that path ALREADY.

In the next 3-5 years, they'll have over a MILLION people ready to start doing outsourcing for Mobile computing platforms. Pakistan has over 110 MILLION young males, ages 16-23 (working age), with 30 years of work life in them. So TRUST ME, Pakistan in the next 20 years, from an ROI's standpoint, has a LOT more return to offer than anyone else. There is a reason why their stock market has been performing in top 5 for the past two consecutive years

So buying $ 4 - 6 or 8 billion worth of weapons that are usually paid in 3-5 years, is not a big deal. I think the PAF need to make up their mind in terms of if the JFT + -16 is REALLY a great combo that they can let it work, or if they REALLY need other platforms and which ones (J-10 or J-11 or SU-35). This jet issue is really waiting on the PAF's settling on one option. Not because of the money!!

 

[Kakaspai]

Why do you lie so much and mis-quote posts for your propaganda based benefits???? I never said " brand new planes from both Russia and China". What are you? From some Indian media outlet, focused on JUST sensation and hype so others can "like" your posts? Those people are called "Attention Wh***** " in American English

Read the post before you respond. And JUST to set the record, Pakistan has over $ 20 billion in her savings account and its growing at an average of .4-.5 billion a month. So $ 4 billion is a piece of cake if they REALLY have to pay cash. But they will easily get loans like India and everyone else.

The Pakistan you knew back in 2012, is not there anymore. The Pakistan today is over her path to be the top 15th economy in the next two decades. A similar journey that India took due to Bill Clinton's help. You guys should put his picture above Nehru and Gandhi as he's really the one who with a single hand (and his Presidential powers), worked very hard and resulted in outsourcing billions of jobs and investments to India.

So you are not where you are because of something special that "India" did or the 'Indian Nation" did. You are there because of the Western investments that went into the Indian system. Similarly, Pakistan has started on that path ALREADY.

In the next 3-5 years, they'll have over a MILLION people ready to start doing outsourcing for Mobile computing platforms. Pakistan has over 110 MILLION young males, ages 16-23 (working age), with 30 years of work life in them. So TRUST ME, Pakistan in the next 20 years, from an ROI's standpoint, has a LOT more return to offer than anyone else. There is a reason why their stock market has been performing in top 5 for the past two consecutive years

So buying $ 4 - 6 or 8 billion worth of weapons that are usually paid in 3-5 years, is not a big deal. I think the PAF need to make up their mind in terms of if the JFT + -16 is REALLY a great combo that they can let it work, or if they REALLY need other platforms and which ones (J-10 or J-11 or SU-35). This jet issue is really waiting on the PAF's settling on one option. Not because of the money!!

Sir these indians are still living in denial.they dont have any thing beside saying we don't have cash but in reality they do know its just that they dont want to except it

 

[Quwa]

Vipers post





BRAND NEW WARPLANES from both china & Russia

J10 or SU35

Where you finding the $4 billion.

INFACT is there even this much money in Pakistan. itself

We took money from India, that's why your MRCA program fell hard.