China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan

[Syed_Adeel]

5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?

Well This is more suitable for IAF Rafael procurement and LCA development.
for us we took time for JFT maturing and getting more funds and tech options in the mean while.
and if you look closely then you will find that tech gap and hightech platform gap between PAF and IAF has been significantly decreased.

j10 is always available to PAF so thats not the issue(including finances) to procure in any emergency condition
su 35 is some thing US is worried about and thats some thing great for PAF.

in the end we are not like IAF who cannot maintain its fleet strength despite of having funds and multiple options.
even in very bad times, PAF maintained its strength and IAF couldnt dare to do any adventure despite of having numerical and technological superiority(both of which are fast disappearing now).

 

[zebra7]

Brahmos coming in will not hit the PAF fighters in the air already that were scrambled the second the SU-30's took off!!! The PAF's conventional Radars can see over a 100 miles inside India from all directions. Add AWACS to it, anything landing or taking off from your bases its seen and tracked. Unless you are firing Brahmos from the ground, in which case, why are we talking about an Air battle?? Then the other side will respond with their missiles and TRUST me, in a low nuclear threshold, any missile would be considered "HOT" and Kaboom!!! No one can risk to be hit first in this situation and Pakistan can't afford it as its depth isn't much. So that leaves missiles out of the war.

Now the -16 will see and lock the SU-30 when the SU-30 will lock and see the -16. No one has mature weapons that can hit out a plane from over 100 miles. That's simply not applicable in Pakistan-India's case as a plane can land and what happens to the missile when the lock disappears?? There are 12 things you can do to waste missiles from that far out.

Now both the SU and the -16 will lock and fire BVR's at a similar distance 60 miles or close to it, plus - minus 10%. From this point on, the -16 will never fire one missile as it knows that an advance missile like the AMRAAM C5 or D, will make it to the jet and the best option the SU would eventually have, is to use its TVC.

So the second AMRAAM will be fired knowing that calculation and it'll hit the SU when its recovering or has JUST recovered from the TVC lag. On the other hand, if the SU also fired two missiles, the other Viper is gone too. With advanced missiles, this is almost a sure kill scenario on either side. Whether its M2K or Su-30 or the Viper.

In WVR, pilot training and skills matter a lot. On high altitudes, M2K seems to be more agile and has a heavier thrust. But on normal altitude, the F-16 would eat the M2K for lunch. The USAF trains with the Western planes a LOT. With SU-30, an experienced F-16 dog fighting pilot can win. Just like they win from the F-15's and F-18's. The -16 is just very difficult to shake in a dog fight. But remember, that skill is either with the USAF, Israeli AF, or the Pakistani AF. No other air-force with -16's has the combat experience to produce these battle hardened combat pilots for dog fights!

Ask a superior F-15 pilot what does he fear the most, his answer would be, the Viper!!! He's be comfortable facing everything else but the Viper. Same applies to this scenario here.

Good answer and logical post leave aside nuclear threshold aside.

1. Air Launched, and Land launched Brahmos could be first used to soften the target and to target the hardened and well protected targets like forward bases, radars, installation etc. The advantage of using Brahmos is the sheer speed aka low response time and difficult to intercept for pakistan with the current SAMs. If I would have been the IAF chief our prime target would have been the ground radars, and the bases including the bases for the AWACS instead of AWAC platform i.e SAAB 2000. For surgical strike SEAD mission using UAV like heron and antiradiation missile like KH55.
Prime target distroy the radars installation there is no need to distroy the SAM tel which will be concluded during DEAD when ground attack Jaguars low flying ability would be needed.

2. India nuclear doctrine have provided ballastic missile as the delivery platform and not the supersonic cruise missile like brahmos and both have different tragectory and it could be distinguished easily in radar screen than which nuclear threshold.

3. Do you really think after depleting radars and sams threat Indian Su 30 or the su 30 formation will come alone. My guess is it will come with the formation of Mix of Mki acting as command station with KLINIT SPJ providing SAM jamming cover to the formation of Mirrage 2000UPG/mig29 UPG and Jaguar and during air to air conflict with F-16 the BVR R-77 with superior range and more BVR load will have upperhand. Yes if Indian followed the russian strategy of firing 2 BVR i.e 1 with the active mode and 2nd with IR guided mode per aircraft than the chances of BVR hitting the target will increased upto 85%. IAF have advantage of longer BVR experience and strategies build over decades as compared to PAF and more friendly exercises and have more different array of BVR than the PAF counterpart

4. In WVR guns vs guns i think is over but anyway with the event of high boresight, highly manuevour missile like R-73, Python and AIM MX have closed the window for the dogfights of planes with trailing gunfires. Regarding f16 trained pilot skills I cannot comment because it differ from one pilot to another but I can assure you that Indians pilot are no FUSS. They spend long time in air practicing and there is in pilot skill development of Indian Airforce is not bad at all by any standard.

5. Disadvantage of PAF is in nos How many F-16 is available with the Paf. Keeping one more thing in mind that the Indians have equiped even Mig 21 Bison with BVR.

I post a whole bolded response on how you never even touched the points which you wanted to be proved to you ... i.e (F-16 going toe to toe with IAF assets) ... and you don't even have the audacity to touch that part with any serious response, never mind a real reply in any shape or form ..

So .. your defense of the whole statement of PAF having XYZ stand off assets never mind our entire repertoire of missile assets is that "Brahmos has different versions" .. atleast look up the things your posting before you post them .. eg. CM-400 AKG is an asset that can also be used to attack fixed targets .. and speaking of different versions ... the versions you quote ... like an ALCM Brahmos hasn't even been tested as of yet ..

Test Launch of Operational BrahMos Missile From Su-30MKI in 2016

As for being defend able ... that is a whole different debate .. The patriot is supposedly the world's best when it comes to interception of missiles etc. but the success rate against SCUDS (which was originally made in the Soviet union era) is 70% in war/real situations ... As for having assets .. we do have Surface to air missile assets that do have the capacity to undertake such tasks .. such as SPADA 2000 ...

Janab thanking you for your points. There is no point of discussion with you after I read

As for being defend able ... that is a whole different debate .. The patriot is supposedly the world's best when it comes to interception of missiles etc. but the success rate against SCUDS (which was originally made in the Soviet union era) is 70% in war/real situations ... As for having assets .. we do have Surface to air missile assets that do have the capacity to undertake such tasks .. such as SPADA 2000 ...

Scuds is ballastic missile by the way Janab

 

[abdulbarijan]

Good answer and logical post leave aside nuclear threshold aside.

1. Air Launched, and Land launched Brahmos could be first used to soften the target and to target the hardened and well protected targets like forward bases, radars, installation etc. The advantage of using Brahmos is the sheer speed aka low response time and difficult to intercept for pakistan with the current SAMs. If I would have been the IAF chief our prime target would have been the ground radars, and the bases including the bases for the AWACS instead of AWAC platform i.e SAAB 2000. For surgical strike SEAD mission using UAV like heron and antiradiation missile like KH55.
Prime target distroy the radars installation there is no need to distroy the SAM tel which will be concluded during DEAD when ground attack Jaguars low flying ability would be needed.

2. India nuclear doctrine have provided ballastic missile as the delivery platform and not the supersonic cruise missile like brahmos and both have different tragectory and it could be distinguished easily in radar screen than which nuclear threshold.

3. Do you really think after depleting radars and sams threat Indian Su 30 or the su 30 formation will come alone. My guess is it will come with the formation of Mix of Mki acting as command station with KLINIT SPJ providing SAM jamming cover to the formation of Mirrage 2000UPG/mig29 UPG and Jaguar and during air to air conflict with F-16 the BVR R-77 with superior range and more BVR load will have upperhand. Yes if Indian followed the russian strategy of firing 2 BVR i.e 1 with the active mode and 2nd with IR guided mode per aircraft than the chances of BVR hitting the target will increased upto 85%. IAF have advantage of longer BVR experience and strategies build over decades as compared to PAF and more friendly exercises and have more different array of BVR than the PAF counterpart

4. In WVR guns vs guns i think is over but anyway with the event of high boresight, highly manuevour missile like R-73, Python and AIM MX have closed the window for the dogfights of planes with trailing gunfires. Regarding f16 trained pilot skills I cannot comment because it differ from one pilot to another but I can assure you that Indians pilot are no FUSS. They spend long time in air practicing and there is in pilot skill development of Indian Airforce is not bad at all by any standard.

5. Disadvantage of PAF is in nos How many F-16 is available with the Paf. Keeping one more thing in mind that the Indians have equiped even Mig 21 Bison with BVR.


Janab thanking you for your points. There is no point of discussion with you after I read

As for being defend able ... that is a whole different debate .. The patriot is supposedly the world's best when it comes to interception of missiles etc. but the success rate against SCUDS (which was originally made in the Soviet union era) is 70% in war/real situations ... As for having assets .. we do have Surface to air missile assets that do have the capacity to undertake such tasks .. such as SPADA 2000 ...

Scuds is ballastic missile by the way Janab

I do know the Scuds are ballistic missiles ... do you have success rates of such SAM's against cruise missiles in a war time situation ... maybe you'd like to quote the success rates of some systems because I was not able to find them ...

I did find your reply interesting, certainly alot more then the previous ones with no arguments .. only talk of prove this prove that ... Since there is no point in discussing with me ... don't read the following cuz it might just hurt your feelings ..

There are QUITE A FEW "assumptions" that you use to build your case ...

-The assumption that future weapons of India are already in service .. eg. Air launched version of Brahmos is already inducted when its not even tested .. (was originally scheduled for 2015 but now its 2016)

-The assumption, that Pakistan would be responding accordingly with the Indian doctrine of non usage of nuclear weapons in cruise missiles ... like brahmos which are nuclear capable as per some sources ...so in the chaos of the war ... you think that somehow Pakistan will hold back against a weapon that could probably carry a nuclear war head...

-The assumption that PAF, and PA won't respond to "softening" of the defense ... what happens when Pakistan unleashes its own barrage of stand off weapons and cruise missiles that we possess against India ...

-The assumption that IAF will be able to deplete Pakistan's radar and SAM assets ... we have an airforce that is designed from the outset to have low turn around times and high availability owing to platforms that require low maintenance ...so how do your SEAD and DEAD operations go, while you face resistance .. and the threat of being subjected to the taste of your own medicine ...coupled with the fact that your airforce is largely composed of maintenance intensive fighters.. quadrupled with the fact that you have an airforce in PLAAF that is a known hostile .. so what steps will the IAF take as contingencies against these sorta odds ...

-The series of assumptions you use with the aircrafts going up against each other ...
-The first being the IAF will be more proficient with BVR usage because it has more experience compared to the Pakistani pilots .. however somehow in WVR pilot training is brushed off with statements such as as ...

"I cannot comment because it differ from one pilot to another but I can assure you that Indians pilot are no FUSS" --

what do you think PAF pilots were doing when they did not have the BVR's ?? .. they were perfecting the WVR which the airforce is famous for and quite proficient in ...

-The second assumption being, the R-77 has a more superior range compared to the AMRAAM's ... discounting the fact that most BVR engagements would take place in distances where pilots are the missile is most likely to score a kill ... that discounts the range advantage although there is no range advantage to begin with as ... the IAF operates the R-77 RVV-AE which has around approx 54 NMI range ... Aim-120 C5 on the other hand has approx 57 NMI range .. so unfortunately for you .. the version IAF currently operates, range wise is actually inferior to the Aim-120 C5 ...

-Thirdly, do look up F-16 configurations as to what type of weapon mix it can carry ... hint .. alot deadlier then you think ...

 

[zebra7]

I do know the Scuds are ballistic missiles ... do you have success rates of such SAM's against cruise missiles in a war time situation ... maybe you'd like to quote the success rates of some systems because I was not able to find them ...

You will not find that because you are more interested in the web of words and making talk complex.

I did find your reply interesting, certainly alot more then the previous ones with no arguments .. only talk of prove this prove that ... Since there is no point in discussing with me ... don't read the following cuz it might just hurt your feelings .. as there are some assumptions that you use to build your case ...

Hurt my feeling buddy what are you talking again I ask simple question and you should have answer simple like spada2000 or HQ-9 etc why are you migling words its meaning thats irritating.

The assumption that future weapons of India are already in service .. eg. Air launched version of Brahmos is already inducted when its not even tested .. (was originally scheduled for 2015 but now its 2016)

-The assumption, that Pakistan would be responding accordingly with the Indian doctrine of non usage of nuclear weapons in cruise missiles ... like brahmos which are nuclear capable as per some sources ...

-The assumption that PAF, and PA won't respond to "softening" of the defense ... what happens when Pakistan unleashes its own barrage of stand off weapons and cruise missiles that we possess against India ...

-The assumption that IAF will be able to deplete Pakistan's radar and SAM assets ... we have an airforce that is designed from the outset to have low turn around times and high availability owing to platforms that require low maintenance ...

You fail to understand the idea its all the hypothetical talk in hypothetical sceniorio otherwise I could be the defense expert and giving service to the India defence forces. Why working so hard you are bringing only chinese supplied weapons in case of Pakistan and in case of Indians only Indian developed weapon. Just google how many thypes of weapon could be fired from the MKI its more than 70 type of Russian origin including air launched cruise missiles, antiradiation, long range sams, ground attack cruise missile supersonic and subsonic.

By the way do you really believe the range of Brahmos is 300 km due to MTCR in reality.

 

[abdulbarijan]

You will not find that because you are more interested in the web of words and making talk complex.

Hurt my feeling buddy what are you talking again I ask simple question and you should have answer simple like spada2000 or HQ-9 etc why are you migling words its meaning thats irritating.

You fail to understand the idea its all the hypothetical talk in hypothetical sceniorio otherwise I could be the defense expert and giving service to the India defence forces. Why working so hard you are bringing only chinese supplied weapons in case of Pakistan and in case of Indians only Indian developed weapon. Just google how many thypes of weapon could be fired from the MKI its more than 70 type of Russian origin including air launched cruise missiles, antiradiation, long range sams, ground attack cruise missile supersonic and subsonic.

By the way do you really believe the range of Brahmos is 300 km due to MTCR in reality.

Meaning you don't have an answer yourself .. hence " you make talkkk complexx " .. and I already answered your question .. which never even touched the original topic at hand btw but for someone who complains like a little child over "making talk complex" you certainly have no problem in throwing in those hypothetical situatuions of yours...

The only difference is when you do google it (referring to your more then 70 weapons which can be used with the SU-30) Do refer to what weapons and versions your airforce operates Mr defense expert .. and like wise do look at the weaponry that PAF also operates before you go on your long tirades of hypothetical situations ... in which only 2 lines are devoted to the original topic and the rest is ...

"Do you believe ..... XYZ" "Do you believe ... ABC" ... that being more or less your entire defense ...

 

[zebra7]

Meaning you don't have an answer yourself .. hence " you make talkkk complexx " .. and I already answered your question .. which never even touched the original topic at hand btw but for someone who complains like a little child over "making talk complex" you certainly have no problem in throwing in things like this .. (the hypothetical situatuion of yours)

The only difference is when you do google it referring to your more then 70 weapons which can be used with the SU-30 .. Do refer to what weapons and versions your airforce operates Mr defense expert .. and like wise do look at the weaponry that PAF also operates before you go on your long tirades of hypothetical situations ... in which only 2 lines are devoted to the original topic and the rest is ...

"Do you believe ..... XYZ" "Do you believe ... ABC" ... that being more or less your entire defense ...

If you have answered my question ?? What is left then ?? What was the answer by the way ??

I said the whole idea !! If you got the idea of my point that what is left for the discussion ??

Google was just for the example to show that how you interpret from the words of someone and if you understand than good and if you fail to understand more well and good.

Nobody can win from you !! Lage raho !! By the way the topic of the thread is J10b engine al31fn to pakistan.

 

[abdulbarijan]

If you have answered my question ?? What is left then ?? What was the answer by the way ??

I said the whole idea !! If you got the idea of my point that what is left for the discussion ??

Google was just for the example to show that how you interpret from the words of someone and if you understand than good and if you fail to understand more well and good.

Nobody can win from you !! Lage raho !! By the way the topic of the thread is J10b engine al31fn to pakistan.

Wait so now google is an example of how I interpret things ?? -- irrespective of the fact that you were putting in to simulation a weapon that isn't even tested ... considering the fact that your entire posts are composed of "do you believe this .... " or "prove this" ..

"Google was just for the example to show that how you interpret from the words of someone and if you understand than good and if you fail to understand more well and good."

So this excuse of a sentence .. which is supposed to mean something .. is related to the example showcasing how interpret stuff ...

No no, please carry on ... enlighten us more ... next consider PAK-FA in your hypothetical situation .. no one can equal your intelligence ... or the textual genocide that you commit every time you try to post something ... so keep dreaming ..

Ok if you insist why not the problem with you is that you keep reading the sentence word by word and try to search the mistakes in them and then try to make fun of him. With idea means the the logic or the thing what he wants to explain or what he feels but since you are only concentrating in words with you brain ready to unaccept anything different what you knows or what you believe thats why you feels bad or hurt when someone differ than you. Thats why there is no way I could answer you. And because you have already made your assumption that i have the brain of peanut or small computing power just chill and post this underline words and put some :rofi image and make my fun. Ok.

Your entire "idea" was what ??? -- ohh yes .. your idea of an "idea" is ...

" do you really believe this is whats going on" ---

or rather your hypothesis ... where a country is firing nuclear capable missiles on the other and there is not even a response to that ... keep believing that ... might help you sleep at night ...

 

[zebra7]

Wait so now google is an example of how I interpret things ?? -- irrespective of the fact that you were putting in to simulation a weapon that isn't even tested ... considering the fact that your entire posts except 1 and that too has bits and pieces of the same "do you believe this .... "



So this excuse of a sentence .. which is supposed to mean something .. is showcasing how interpret stuff ...

No no, please carry on ... enlighten us more ... next consider PAK-FA in your hypothetical situation .. no one can equal your intelligence ... or the textual genocide that you commit every time you try to post something ... so keep dreaming ..

Ok if you insist why not the problem with you is that you keep reading the sentence word by word and try to search the mistakes in them and then try to make fun of him. With idea means the the logic or the thing what he wants to explain or what he feels but since you are only concentrating in words with you brain ready to unaccept anything different what you knows or what you believe thats why you feels bad or hurt when someone differ than you. Thats why there is no way I could answer you. And because you have already made your assumption that i have the brain of peanut or small computing power just chill and post this underline words and put some :rofi image and make my fun. Ok.

 

[kshaib]

China will give 10b plane to Pakistan, Russia will not reject, Russia need china for many reason, china is Mother to Pakistan.

 

[araz]

China will give 10b plane to Pakistan, Russia will not reject, Russia need china for many reason, china is Mother to Pakistan.

As always the real question is not what our Chinese brethren will hand over to us. The relationship calculus more or less matches the US Israeli relationship in many aspects. The question is whether there is a need for a second single engined mid range fighter from the same source or whether things have moved on. I maybe totally wrong but the J10 boat sailed by in 2010. The main cause of PAFs reluctance was the lack of a Chinese engine posing a logistical nightmare, Russian reluctance to export AL31 FN 3 to PAF and the lack of a tangible advantage from inducting the platform. I suspect the spectre of J10 was effectively utilized by PAF to gain more 16s which not only are a much less labour intensive platform to induct as compared to J10 but have more or less closed the door for further J10 imports. I suspect we will finally get upto 110 platforms and if possible caccoon a couple of squadrons for emergency use.
The other interesting fact was that back in 2009/10 PAF started saying J10 will not be integrated in PAF due to lack of any significant advantage and the immense upgradability potential of JFT. None of us understood what was being talked about and even senior AF people like pshamim expressed his doubts about the resolve of PAF and the motives behind it. Six years down the line we now understand why PAF had said what it said at the time. JFT is PAFs destiny and this is how this play is going to the curtain.
A

 

[zebra7]

Chinese have invested heavily in Engine R&D but still the development of engines is not only easy but required heavy investment and industrial base. I think Chinese still lacks in metallugy and the manufacturers of Russia, french, us have decades of experience in its development. Chinese engines required time to get matured enough to gain the confidence of the other nations. I believe PAF and other Pakistani expert might have done analysis of this factor and the risk of taking the chinese engine into consideration. I agreed with you on the point regarding J10b export into PAF.

 

[black-hawk_101]

I think Pakistan and China are working on the possible supply of 50 J-31s with same engine as of JF-17s

 

[ChennaiDude]

Another correction that 1956 was the first constitution so naturally it was for the first time it changed its name. Pakistan was about to be an Islamic state on 1940 and in 1948 after objective resolution.

Thanks for the clarification..I stay corrected.

 

[HAIDER]

@MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing. And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35 and Gen Raheel negotiated the deal. Another addition, PAF is trying to adopt AESA in block 3, but not sure that would be able to do that.

 

[Quwa]

There is one scenario where the J-10 could end up joining PAF and that is if additional F-16s just cannot be had. In the medium weight category the PAF already has a solid system (F-16), so it makes sense that it'd build upon the existing infrastructure layout for C/D and A/B by procuring as many used and new airframes as possible.

But while this is the obvious choice, it is puzzling that PAF hasn't really taken this route. Seems to me there is an actual political hold-up on the U.S side. Sure, let's assume PAF doesn't have the money for new frames or even the funds to upgrade old ones, but why not just procure the frames as is like it did with Jordan? We know PAF has financial issues, but I seriously don't think it'd be as bad as being unable to buy fighters for $10-15 million a unit.

If the PAF seriously thinks there is a need to keep building up the medium weight category and not perhaps split it more extremely between heavy (Su-35) and light (JF-17) fighters, then it could end up with J-10 (or J-10B). The other option might be the MiG-35, which could have engine commonality with JF-17!