China lodges protest after Obama approves Taiwan frigate sale

[Aepsilons]

China start AEGIS on type 051C.
052C can be considered the first mature AEGIS syste,
052D is an improved one with more function and 055 is still under development..



Nihonjin San
From my personal opinion, I fully agree with you that we should be in peace in east Asia..
Yet US did intervene in Taiwan issue in 1996.
As Japan is an ally of US, I doubt if Japan can stay away.
That is why China is developing its military force, to stop this kind of intervene..

For Taiwan issue, usually we can solve it by economy..
As Taiwan`s economy is much rely on mainland China, we will use economy rather than war..
Yet we should have the capacity to stop intervene.
China will not start a war, yet will not be afraid of war..

@hans - sama,

As it is now, we Japanese value our partnership with China. The only China we recognize is the People's Republic of China, as per our two nations' 1978 Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which we Japanese had explicitly stated that we recognize only One China, and that is the People's Republic of China, and not the Republic of China. Tho we do have business relations with Taiwan, we do not consider Taiwan as an independent state, but, rather, a rogue province of China, officially. As per our agreements.

Given Japan's historical presence in Taiwan and our much-praised economic cooperation with Taipei, you have to understand that our appreciation and interest in Taiwan is that of a cultural one, as well as an economic one. The same goes for China, which also has a strong cultural, historical and economic relationship with Taiwan.

China-Taiwan-Japan have deep interlocking interests and prerogatives, which requires peace and stability. Right? Our peoples want peace, the majority of our peoples are peace loving, cherish and admire harmony. Compromise and diplomacy is also an important characteristic. Because of this aspect, I doubt that a situation would arise wherein China and Japan are at gun point over Taiwan. You know what I mean? We have no claims over Taiwan, we only want peaceful development for them and the promise of safety for our interests , investments in Taiwan (the same with China).

As it stands Japan and China are developing emergency communication channels to ensure that our militaries will evade any worrisome exigency. And this step is part of the overall warming of ties between Tokyo and Beijing. And this is why I do not think Japan will engage in any military escalation, but will probably play a role in de-escalating in the event it is required.

My friend, we know full well what is going in the volatile areas of the world such as in Subsaharan Africa, Middle East and parts of South and Central Asia where conflict is rampant. We , as East Asian Race, should not wish that kind of instability and disharmonious state to ever befall on our Region. East Asia must remain peaceful, developing and progress together. We are, as a region, integrating already. Let us hope that our respective leaders will see the wisdom of peaceful development.

 

[William Hung]

Taiwan thanks U.S. Congress for passing bill on frigates sale | Politics | FOCUS TAIWAN - CNA ENGLISH NEWS


Taiwan thanks U.S. Congress for passing bill on frigates sale

Taipei, Dec. 11 (CNA) Taiwan on Thursday expressed gratitude to the U.S. Congress after the House of Representatives on Wednesday followed the Senate by unanimously passing a bill that authorizes the sale of four Perry-class frigates to Taiwan.

In Taipei, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a statement Thursday to express the country's gratitude for Congress' support and to welcome the passage of the bill.

The bill will now be sent to the White House for President Barack Obama to sign into law within 10 days, after which the legal procedure necessary to make way for a sale of the decommissioned frigates will be completed.

The move "demonstrates the U.S. Congress' commitment to our security in line with the Taiwan Relations Act" and also "shows U.S. congressmen's support for Taiwan-U.S. ties," the ministry said.

 

[hans]

Nihonin San
I fully agree with you that east Asia should be in peace.
China mainland and Taiwan, Korea, Japan should all in peace and good economy and politic relationship.

Yet as there are still US military presence in east Asia, mainly targeting at China, trying to intervene the Taiwan issue, I would say this kind of peace will still take some time.
We need to wait until China has the capacity to balance US force in east Asia and free Korea and Japan from US military force.
The future is good but we need to work hard.

@hans - sama,

As it is now, we Japanese value our partnership with China. The only China we recognize is the People's Republic of China, as per our two nations' 1978 Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which we Japanese had explicitly stated that we recognize only One China, and that is the People's Republic of China, and not the Republic of China. Tho we do have business relations with Taiwan, we do not consider Taiwan as an independent state, but, rather, a rogue province of China, officially. As per our agreements.

Given Japan's historical presence in Taiwan and our much-praised economic cooperation with Taipei, you have to understand that our appreciation and interest in Taiwan is that of a cultural one, as well as an economic one. The same goes for China, which also has a strong cultural, historical and economic relationship with Taiwan.

China-Taiwan-Japan have deep interlocking interests and prerogatives, which requires peace and stability. Right? Our peoples want peace, the majority of our peoples are peace loving, cherish and admire harmony. Compromise and diplomacy is also an important characteristic. Because of this aspect, I doubt that a situation would arise wherein China and Japan are at gun point over Taiwan. You know what I mean? We have no claims over Taiwan, we only want peaceful development for them and the promise of safety for our interests , investments in Taiwan (the same with China).

As it stands Japan and China are developing emergency communication channels to ensure that our militaries will evade any worrisome exigency. And this step is part of the overall warming of ties between Tokyo and Beijing. And this is why I do not think Japan will engage in any military escalation, but will probably play a role in de-escalating in the event it is required.

My friend, we know full well what is going in the volatile areas of the world such as in Subsaharan Africa, Middle East and parts of South and Central Asia where conflict is rampant. We , as East Asian Race, should not wish that kind of instability and disharmonious state to ever befall on our Region. East Asia must remain peaceful, developing and progress together. We are, as a region, integrating already. Let us hope that our respective leaders will see the wisdom of peaceful development.

 

[William Hung]

China start AEGIS on type 051C.
052C can be considered the first mature AEGIS syste,
052D is an improved one with more function and 055 is still under development.

ate hans,

"AEGIS" is a special designation for a specific type of (western) ships. You cannot just call the 052 as AEGIS. If you're refering to them as AEGIS in the sense that they have similar capabilities, then that's also wrong. The 052D is not in the same league as the western AB class AEGIS.


love,

BF

 

[Aepsilons]

Nihonin San
I fully agree with you that east Asia should be in peace.
China mainland and Taiwan, Korea, Japan should all in peace and good economy and politic relationship.

Yet as there are still US military presence in east Asia, mainly targeting at China, trying to intervene the Taiwan issue, I would say this kind of peace will still take some time.
We need to wait until China has the capacity to balance US force in east Asia and free Korea and Japan from US military force.
The future is good but we need to work hard.

We must think of long term goals. I think that in a century or so, we will see a completely integrated East Asia. We may not enjoy the fruits of our labor, but our great, great grandchildren will.

 

[hans]

personally I will be more optimistic
I think it will take another 15-20 years for China to balance US in east Asia..
You know US has superior military force. Yet it need to focus on so many place.
While China will only focus on east Asia..

We must think of long term goals. I think that in a century or so, we will see a completely integrated East Asia. We may not enjoy the fruits of our labor, but our great, great grandchildren will.

AEGIS is an integrated weapon system on warship, combining radar, missile, commanding system together
052D is more advance than current US AB block II. similar to AB block III which is not built yet..
052C is the first AEGIS that China has, it is pretty clear..

ate hans,

"AEGIS" is a special designation for a specific type of (western) ships. You cannot just call the 052 as AEGIS. If you're refering to them as AEGIS in the sense that they have similar capabilities, then that's also wrong. The 052D is not in the same league as the western AB class AEGIS.


love,

BF

 

[Genesis]

ate hans,

"AEGIS" is a special designation for a specific type of (western) ships. You cannot just call the 052 as AEGIS. If you're refering to them as AEGIS in the sense that they have similar capabilities, then that's also wrong. The 052D is not in the same league as the western AB class AEGIS.


love,

BF

In many ways the Chinese AEGIS are better, if we must designate a name for ships of that role and capability.

First of all we use ASEA radar rather than PESA radars, this alone gives us the advantage. In terms of missiles, we started with Russian ones and improved and developed further into Chinese missiles that were better than Western counter parts to begin with.

In terms of electronics, and stealth design, we incorporated modern thinking and products into the ships. The Nimitz still manually set the launch power for jets based on a paper chart.

Our VLS is better in that it can accommodate any missile into any one of the slots, which made other launchers irrelevant and thus increased stealth, and efficiency as well as flexibility.

Though to be fair to the Americans, their ships were built some 20-30 years ago, and DDG-1000 is a very modern ship.



You claim it's in a different league than our ships, why don't you list some facts, since you are so confident, that it's not in the same league.

We must think of long term goals. I think that in a century or so, we will see a completely integrated East Asia. We may not enjoy the fruits of our labor, but our great, great grandchildren will.

why do you want integration, China advanced furthest when there was conflict in warring states, Han, Tang, Ming, and Song. When we are same it's lame. Like Qing.

Europeans forged their empire through blood and iron, while we can do without the iron, competition is needed to keep up the advancement.

Why did Japan, and China advance so fast, during our respected periods, it certainly wasn't because everything was dandy.

I say let there be chaos, just keep it far away from me, I hate noise, unless there's a drink in my hand.

 

[IsaacNewton]

Sure, i've considered that. But let me introduce another point of reflection: Why should China care for Arleigh Burke Class? The Type 052Ds is China's own version of an 'AEGIS' destroyer ?

While 052D is a great ship, it is about 3000 tons short of being an Arleigh Burke. AB class has 96 VLS vs 052D 64, and AB has enough room to carry 2 helicopters while 052D has only room for 1.

In terms of radar and missile defense computer system, the AB is quite proven while 052D is a mystery, although judging by how advance Shanghai looks and how China was able to land on moon last year, I don't doubt that Chinese engineers can program a good missile defense system and build powerful radars.

One advantage that 052D has is cost (estimated at 800-1billion) whereas an AB cost 1.6-2billion, double that of 052D. Secondly, 052D has a more stealthy design.

It might not be an AGEIS, but if China can build 64 052D like how US builds 64 Arleigh Burkes, it will have enough firepower destroy Taiwan under a rain of missiles.

 

[Aepsilons]

I say let there be chaos, just keep it far away from me, I hate noise, unless there's a drink in my hand.

lol.

this is for you (given the current season!)

Santa Baby! "Original Song 1953" Eartha Kitt! - YouTube

 

[hans]

You know US need to focus so many place in the world. That is why US need to keep such size of military force.
So keep 1/3 of US navy size is sufficient for China to balance US power in East Asia..
If more power, China will put more focus on India Ocean and Africa.
India Ocean and Africa is where material and energy supply to China.

While 052D is a great ship, it is about 3000 tons short of being an Arleigh Burke. AB class has 96 VLS vs 052D 64, and AB has enough room to carry 2 helicopters while 052D has only room for 1.

In terms of radar and missile defense computer system, the AB is quite proven while 052D is a mystery, although judging by how advance Shanghai looks and how China was able to land on moon last year, I don't doubt that Chinese engineers can program a good missile defense system and build powerful radars.

One advantage that 052D has is cost (estimated at 800-1billion) whereas an AB cost 1.6-2billion, double that of 052D. Secondly, 052D has a more stealthy design.

It might not be an AGEIS, but if China can build 64 052D like how US builds 64 Arleigh Burkes, it will have enough firepower destroy Taiwan under a rain of missiles.

 

[Aepsilons]

why do you want integration, China advanced furthest when there was conflict in warring states, Han, Tang, Ming, and Song. When we are same it's lame. Like Qing.

Why not? I dream of an East Asian Union, something similar to that of the European Union, but one that is composed of only China, Japan, South Korea (+ North Korea), Taiwan.

Think about it: China (1.3 billion people + $10 Trillion economy) + Japan (128 million people + $5 Trillion economy) + South Korea (50 million people + $1.7 trillion economy) + Taiwan + North Korea. Combined, the region has the man power, has the economic clout, has the technological capability, to meet any threat.

 

[hans]

That sound great!
I would say there will be only three great economy in the future
North America, Europe and Far east Asia..

Why not? I dream of an East Asian Union, something similar to that of the European Union, but one that is composed of only China, Japan, South Korea (+ North Korea), Taiwan.

Think about it: China (1.3 billion people + $10 Trillion economy) + Japan (128 million people + $5 Trillion economy) + South Korea (50 million people + $1.7 trillion economy) + Taiwan + North Korea. Combined, the region has the man power, has the economic clout, has the technological capability, to meet any threat.

 

[Aepsilons]

While 052D is a great ship, it is about 3000 tons short of being an Arleigh Burke. AB class has 96 VLS vs 052D 64, and AB has enough room to carry 2 helicopters while 052D has only room for 1.

In terms of radar and missile defense computer system, the AB is quite proven while 052D is a mystery, although judging by how advance Shanghai looks and how China was able to land on moon last year, I don't doubt that Chinese engineers can program a good missile defense system and build powerful radars.

One advantage that 052D has is cost (estimated at 800-1billion) whereas an AB cost 1.6-2billion, double that of 052D. Secondly, 052D has a more stealthy design.

It might not be an AGEIS, but if China can build 64 052D like how US builds 64 Arleigh Burkes, it will have enough firepower destroy Taiwan under a rain of missiles.

You make solid points and I agree with you that we should not underestimate the capabilities of the Chinese. I think they've proven their technological know-how already. Given, the Type 052Ds are "technically" not ABs so to say, but their performance and specs are quite similar. The point is that the PLAN is developing its size and fire power ; so much that dreaming of direct confrontation between PLAN and USN would be catastrophic for both sides. The size of the PLAN will reach critical mass wherein it will act as a deterrent, even for the great navies in her contiguous maritime boundary.

Thus, it goes back to my original conjecture that a conflict in the region will not happen. It is counter intuitive. A conflict is representative of a zero-sum praxis and would be the manifestation of failure of any Leadership.

 

[Genesis]

While 052D is a great ship, it is about 3000 tons short of being an Arleigh Burke. AB class has 96 VLS vs 052D 64, and AB has enough room to carry 2 helicopters while 052D has only room for 1.

In terms of radar and missile defense computer system, the AB is quite proven while 052D is a mystery, although judging by how advance Shanghai looks and how China was able to land on moon last year, I don't doubt that Chinese engineers can program a good missile defense system and build powerful radars.

One advantage that 052D has is cost (estimated at 800-1billion) whereas an AB cost 1.6-2billion, double that of 052D. Secondly, 052D has a more stealthy design.

It might not be an AGEIS, but if China can build 64 052D like how US builds 64 Arleigh Burkes, it will have enough firepower destroy Taiwan under a rain of missiles.

The 52D can be seen as secondary destroyer, it's role is mainly on smaller missions or as a secondary role to a bigger ship.

Propulsion has also been a problem in the past, but the 055 is bigger than the Burke class and is a lot more advanced than even the 52D.

In terms of numbers the 055 will likely match or exceed the number of DDG-1000 and any other variant that will replace the Burke class, which I heard is the Burke III.

To sum up, size isn't a problem, and numbers, also not a problem. In terms of weapons, you are right, we are getting more advanced, and while somethings are hard to judge, certain other things are not.

Why not? I dream of an East Asian Union, something similar to that of the European Union, but one that is composed of only China, Japan, South Korea (+ North Korea), Taiwan.

Think about it: China (1.3 billion people + $10 Trillion economy) + Japan (128 million people + $5 Trillion economy) + South Korea (50 million people + $1.7 trillion economy) + Taiwan + North Korea. Combined, the region has the man power, has the economic clout, has the technological capability, to meet any threat.

numbers game, lame. If numbers matter China and India would still dominate, but we are where we are because it doesn't. I rather we be 1.3 billion useful people, than 1.3 billion morons too lazy, and comfortable to even change the channel.

We will continue this technological advancement in all fields because we have competition, like the Mars Missions, we wouldn't have made it a priority if India wasn't involved, but now that they are we must work to surpass them in the field without question, and thus the 2020 Mars rover.

Like a very important man once said, get your foot off my couch and get the hell out of my office.

 

[William Hung]

In many ways the Chinese AEGIS are better, if we must designate a name for ships of that role and capability.

First of all we use ASEA radar rather than PESA radars, this alone gives us the advantage. In terms of missiles, we started with Russian ones and improved and developed further into Chinese missiles that were better than Western counter parts to begin with.

In terms of electronics, and stealth design, we incorporated modern thinking and products into the ships. The Nimitz still manually set the launch power for jets based on a paper chart.

Our VLS is better in that it can accommodate any missile into any one of the slots, which made other launchers irrelevant and thus increased stealth, and efficiency as well as flexibility.

Though to be fair to the Americans, their ships were built some 20-30 years ago, and DDG-1000 is a very modern ship.

You claim it's in a different league than our ships, why don't you list some facts, since you are so confident, that it's not in the same league.

Not this again. So you want fact. Heres a simple one. You said:

In terms of missiles, we started with Russian ones and improved and developed further into Chinese missiles that were better than Western counter parts to begin with.

Let's talk about SAM missiles (I can agree that the US SSM are relatively outdated), the only SAM on the 052D worthy of note is the HHQ-9. While the US has a wide range of SAMs, including SM-2s, SM-3s, SM-6s.

The max. engagement range of the HHQ-9 against AshM cruise missiles is well under 100km. While the latest block SM-2 and SM-6 engagement range is well over 100KM. The US system allows these missiles to be uplinked with mid-course guidance from other platforms.

As for the SM-3s, its range is well above the 220KM max range of the HHQ-9. It does midcourse interception (exoatmospheric) against ballistic missiles. The latest block SM-3 can even take out LEO satellites. HHQ -9 can't do any of this.

No point in talking about superior VLS when the only decent SAM the 052D have is the HHQ-9, which is stil inferior the mentioned US SAMs.

There's no point in playing this d*ck measuring contest. Those who know (including Chinese enthusiasts), will not claim that the 052D is on the same league. I'm not here to copy-paste these d*ck measurments. The only thing worthy of mentioning on the 052D is its superior supersonic AshM.