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China is in for ‘a tough time’ as U.S. targets tech sector, expert says

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China is in for ‘a tough time’ as U.S. targets tech sector, expert says
PUBLISHED MON, SEP 7 20203:10 AM EDT
Yen Nee Lee
KEY POINTS
  • China is in for “a tough time” in the short term as the U.S. tries to deny it access to crucial tech components, said Richard Martin, managing director of IMA Asia.
  • He said that China will have to move the entire semiconductor production chain domestically, but such effort may take two or three years to complete.
  • Analysts from Jefferies estimated that 40% to 50% of SMIC’s equipment is from the U.S.
SINGAPORE — China is in for “a tough time” in the short term as the U.S. tries to deny it access to crucial tech components, a business consultant told CNBC on Monday.

Tensions between the two countries in the technology space heated up over the weekend with the U.S. considering blacklisting China’s largest chipmaker, Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation or SMIC.

The measure would restrict SMIC from obtaining specific goods made in the U.S. Even though China has been developing its own semiconductor manufacturing capabilities, companies such as SMIC still relies on American equipment in its production line.

Richard Martin, managing director of IMA Asia, told CNBC’s “Squawk Box Asia” that China may have to “look elsewhere” for supply of semiconductors if SMIC’s ability to produce them is crippled by the U.S. move.

“The problem with looking elsewhere is if you go to Europe or if you go to Japan, the companies in Europe and Japan are using U.S. machinery at some point in their production process. And therefore ... they can be hit by this U.S. effort to choke it off,” he said.

“So what China needs to do is move the entire supply chain into China,” he added.

Such effort may take years given that SMIC is still “a long way” behind its rivals in terms of chip-making capabilities, said Martin.

“That’s going to be the big drive,” he said. “It’s going to take them two or three years to get past this and move the whole supply chain into China.”

Analysts from Jefferies estimated that 40% to 50% of SMIC’s equipment is from the U.S. They said in a Sunday note that a ban on exports to SMIC — and potentially other Chinese semiconductor producers — is a “lose-lose proposition.”

They explained that China is a major buyer of equipment to produce semiconductors and is expected to account for around 24% of global purchases this year. Therefore, blacklisting companies such as SMIC could also hurt makers of the equipment, including those from the U.S., the analysts said.

The U.S.-China tech dispute is part of a broader conflict between the world’s top two economies. While a damaging tariff war has been halted, the two countries have recently clashed over a wide range of issues that include the origin of the coronavirus and Hong Kong’s autonomy.

Before the announcement of SMIC’s potential blacklisting, the U.S. had made other moves against Chinese tech players, noted Martin. That includes requiring foreign manufacturers using American chip-making equipment to get a license before selling semiconductors to Huawei, he said.

“They’ve really been trying to close down the China tech sector.”

— CNBC’s Arjun Kharpal contributed to this report.

 
Semiconductor industry is the last fort of US industry empire. We are witnessing the decisive battle between China and US in economy. If China succeeds, US will inevitably sink.
it won't be easy. US has decades of basic research on china. Right now without any US tech, China could only get to around 65nm processes. So this fight will definitely take a long time and a tremendous amount of investment without any returns for that time. Problem is most chinese companies besides huawei and a few are not on board.
 
No one is going to sink but USA will surely loose it's monopoly in this sector.
 
it won't be easy. US has decades of basic research on china. Right now without any US tech, China could only get to around 65nm processes. So this fight will definitely take a long time and a tremendous amount of investment without any returns for that time. Problem is most chinese companies besides huawei and a few are not on board.
You will be surprised I gurantee you ?
 
it won't be easy. US has decades of basic research on china. Right now without any US tech, China could only get to around 65nm processes. So this fight will definitely take a long time and a tremendous amount of investment without any returns for that time. Problem is most chinese companies besides huawei and a few are not on board.
Huawei invested in Beijing Universty's new semiductor material research.
 
it won't be easy. US has decades of basic research on china. Right now without any US tech, China could only get to around 65nm processes. So this fight will definitely take a long time and a tremendous amount of investment without any returns for that time. Problem is most chinese companies besides huawei and a few are not on board.

65 nm processes are already good enough to maintain industrial and automotive electronics. for industrial electronics, many still run on 8-bit microcontrollers like ATMegas which are built on 3 micron processes. Even the high end industrial mixed signal chips such as NXP i.MX 5 with 800 MHz clock speed (which is sufficient for 99.99999% of embedded software tasks) can be built on 65 nm.

Also, do you mean no US tech, or no foreign tech? With foreign, non-US tech, there's Nikon for lithography which is suitable for 7 nm. Mixed signal chips can be simulated with Empyrean software, and even Samsung and Western Digital use Empyrean. Chemistry side (etch/deposition) in China is moving towards being globally competitive with AMEC and Naura.

For digital logic, requirements are higher due to high density, high speed, but it isn't magic. It is harder to go from no fab to 200 mm, 0.18 micron fab, than it is to go from a 0.18 micron to 14 nm fab.
 
65 nm processes are already good enough to maintain industrial and automotive electronics. for industrial electronics, many still run on 8-bit microcontrollers like ATMegas which are built on 3 micron processes. Even the high end industrial mixed signal chips such as NXP i.MX 5 with 800 MHz clock speed (which is sufficient for 99.99999% of embedded software tasks) can be built on 65 nm.

Also, do you mean no US tech, or no foreign tech? With foreign, non-US tech, there's Nikon for lithography which is suitable for 7 nm. Mixed signal chips can be simulated with Empyrean software, and even Samsung and Western Digital use Empyrean. Chemistry side (etch/deposition) in China is moving towards being globally competitive with AMEC and Naura.

For digital logic, requirements are higher due to high density, high speed, but it isn't magic. It is harder to go from no fab to 200 mm, 0.18 micron fab, than it is to go from a 0.18 micron to 14 nm fab.
All foreign tech is based on US tech. So they are basically under US control like how US can tell ASML to block Huawei and SMIC. 65nm is no where enough for 5G, AI, and microprocessors.
 
All foreign tech is based on US tech. So they are basically under US control like how US can tell ASML to block Huawei and SMIC. 65nm is no where enough for 5G, AI, and microprocessors.

it is definitely enough for 5G:


it is enough for some AI:


it is not enough for microprocessors competitive with Intel or AMD as of 2020. It is enough for microcontrollers in mixed signal applications and legacy microprocessors. Remember that 65 nm is late 2000's for non-TSMC companies like Intel, with cores up to 3 GHz clock speeds possible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_D#Pentium_Extreme_Edition

It is not that far off. Even today Intel only recently transitioned from 32 nm to 14 nm.

I think you have an extreme overestimation of the computational requirements of 99% of electronics. Alot of the die shrinks recently are not for increased raw performance but due to mobile constraints on power usage and size. if you don't give a shit about power usage and size i.e. stationary applications hooked up to external power, the range of possibilities expands drastically.
 
For chip design and making, China has a full spectrum of supply chains, with space and military chips being almost in parallel with the US ones and civilian chips 2 generations behind the world's best.

The good thing is, now they can start catching up without being worried whether western countries still treat China as a market economy. Even better, business entities in China, especially the state owned organisations and companies can wait for this catch-up to accomplish to some extent, such as mostly self sufficient with all domestically made 28nm or better chips and 70% market consumption being fulfilled by Chinese companies, and DO NOT HAVE TO to consume the latest generations of chips like their western counterparts.

Yes, with a gigantic but also hybrid economy, they are able to wait while western competitors have no chance to wait in similar situations.

That's why people can see big investments have been poured into China's semiconductor industry in recent years.

As China is now consuming 60% of global chip supplies including 70% import, this change in the coming year would cause a lot of western companies along the chip making value chains, especially the American ones, losing their highly skilled workforce.
 
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Semiconductor industry is the last fort of US industry empire. We are witnessing the decisive battle between China and US in economy. If China succeeds, US will inevitably sink.
The US has no chance to win.

Remember China has full spectrum of chip making capabilities. Not like chip making machines in SMIC at which foreign suppliers can jump in at any time to check the imported machines usage, all China's space and military chips are being made using self made equipment and hence such capabilities are completely immune to any foreign sanctions.

In this regard, they are not starting from scratch. They are only behind in civilian chip making and the biggest problem is mask aligners. Even for that they can still manufacture 90nm ones in scale and will start making 22nm/28nm ones in next 2 years.

So, they have skill sets with which they can continue pushing things forward, and they have money, time and a huge market as well. That's why they are confident to reduce annual chip import to 30% of total consumption in next few years. It will bring down a lot of American companies as keeping their highly skilled engineers onboard will very soon become financially infeasible, just like their long gone civilian ship building and under-ongoing-collapse civilian aircraft making (Boeing).
 
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No, it really isn't. SMEE's SSA800 is already in SMIC's hands for trial and verification and will be rolled out commercially next year. That takes care of chips out to 7nm at least (perhaps even 5nm) until the issues with the EUV light source are resolved.

If SMIC is restricted it cannot purchase any further foreign components (which is fantastic motivation for self-sufficiency), there's nothing the US can do to prevent SMIC from using what it already has until substitutes are available.
 
No, it really isn't. SMEE's SSA800 is already in SMIC's hands for trial and verification and will be rolled out commercially next year. That takes care of chips out to 7nm at least (perhaps even 5nm) until the issues with the EUV light source are resolved.

If SMIC is restricted it cannot purchase any further foreign components (which is fantastic motivation for self-sufficiency), there's nothing the US can do to prevent SMIC from using what it already has until substitutes are available.
If SMIC's production line can still run under US sanction, it is good news for Huawei. We were worried that SMIC would not supply chips to Huawei to avoid US sanction. Since the sanction is alread there, there is nothing to worry about then.
 
If SMIC's production line can still run under US sanction, it is good news for Huawei. We were worried that SMIC would not supply chips to Huawei to avoid US sanction. Since the sanction is alread there, there is nothing to worry about then.
Smic said it would stop supplying Huawei after US pressure
 
Smic said it would stop supplying Huawei after US pressure

since they are sanctioned anyways they're likely to supply Huawei - out of self interest, as now they'll need every customer they can get.

you also know that you don't need OEM parts for semiconductor equipment much of the time, right? it's like a car. you can get 3rd party aftermarket parts.
 
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