China invades "Japanese" territorial waters

[SinoChallenger]

China spanks Japan one last time in 2012!

Japan: Three Chinese government ships seen near disputed islands - UPI.com



Japan has accepted the spanking and both sides refrain from cold war turning hot

The Abe cabinet was officially installed yesterday. There have been many guesses about how this new cabinet will approach the Sino-Japanese relationship. However, China should not get tangled up in this question. When it comes to the always-changing Japanese cabinet, China should maintain a stable attitude.

It is already impossible for China and Japan to resume the friendly ties they had before the Junichiro Koizumi-era. In the short term, it's impossible for the relationship to be what it was before the outbreak of the Diaoyu Islands conflicts.

This should be the starting point of China's future diplomacy toward Japan.

Officials from both China and Japan will continue to stress mutually beneficial relations. However, we cannot realistically expect this. Tension has existed in the Sino-Japanese relationship for more than a decade. Given that the situation in the Asia-Pacific hasn't improved, the relationship of the two countries cannot really become warmer.

China does not intend to confront Japan. However, at this stage, we can only adjust our policies based on reality.

The "cold politics but hot economics" relationship between the two countries is transforming to "cold politics and cold economics." China's economy has also suffered from this.

Sino-Japanese relations have been filled with suspicion and misunderstandings. Both sides expect the other to be overawed by hard-line attitudes, while they also worry about escalation leading to war. We should have the proper strategic vigilance to avoid war. However, we should not transform this vigilance into excessive anxiety.

We can have normal interaction and frictions with Japan under the premise that the bottom line is that both sides won't fight a war. With the rise of China's national strength, we should not pay too much attention to the details of Sino-Japanese relations.

There's a possibility that Japan may decide to tie its future to the US and become an anti-China country even more radical than the US. However, whether this comes true depends on the overall situation in the region. China does not have the capability to take the initiative to prevent this from happening. China's increasing strength may be more effective in defusing Japanese hostility.

There's no domestic political room for China to ease its attitude toward Japan on the issues of the Diaoyu Islands and the Yasukuni Shrine. If Japan does not want to see worse Sino-Japanese relations, it should take on more responsibilities to maintain the friendship between the two countries.

The problems with Sino-Japanese relations were caused by power shifts in East Asia. Both China and Japan should get used to the new reality.

In the final analysis, Japan is different from the US. Confrontation with Japan to a certain extent will not destroy China's overall diplomacy. The US factors deeply into the Sino-Japanese relationship. In this sense, the US is a major concern for China while Japan is only a minor one.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/752524.shtml

 

[mareo2]

Hmm...

Chinese say country still not 'world power': poll

Published: 31/12/2012 at 12:46 PM in the Bangkok Post

...More than 80 percent of Chinese say they do not yet see their country as a "world power", according to a newspaper poll.

The survey, in the Global Times daily, also said that more than half of respondents expressed a "positive view" of Beijing's relations with Washington, though most were pessimistic about ties with Tokyo...

...Asked what was "the most significant event that helped elevate China's international standing" in 2012, 44.6 percent of respondents cited the Chinese navy taking delivery of the country's first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning.

A former Soviet vessel, it went into service in September in a symbolic milestone for China's growing military muscle.

But the paper quoted Zhu Feng, a professor at Peking University's School of International Studies, as saying: "Being a world power is not about how many aircraft carriers it has.

"It's more about demonstrating a humble, elegant, confident image on a global platform."...

SinoChallenger, if it make you very happy to imagine that trespassing is a "spanking" instead of a "slap in the face" and that it show how "powerful" your country is, then that's fine, you can do it to your heat's content. But in my humble opinion keep such provocative behavior with so many countries is counterproductive because it only encourage us to buy more weapons and gradually form an Anti-China military alliance between India, Vietnam, Philippines, Japan, etc...

 

[SinoChallenger]

SinoChallenger, if it make you very happy to imagine that trespassing is a "spanking" instead of a "slap in the face" and that it show how "powerful" your country is, then that's fine, you can do it to your heat's content. But in my humble opinion keep such provocative behavior with so many countries is counterproductive because it only encourage us to buy more weapons and gradually form an Anti-China military alliance between India, Vietnam, Philippines, Japan, etc...

India, Vietnam, Philippines, Japan is too scared to form an anti-China alliance...... Japan faces China all alone..... once USA turns its attention to Syria or Iran..... then China strikes!

But I totally accept Japanese claims on Takeshima and occupying South Korea is okay too!

 

[anon45]

India, Vietnam, Philippines, Japan is too scared to form an anti-China alliance...... Japan faces China all alone..... once USA turns its attention to Syria or Iran..... then China strikes!

*Yawn* then do it already, we'll have more forces on hand as we start winding down in Afghanistan, if you don't strike soon you will lose your chance.

 

[SinoChallenger]

*Yawn* then do it already, we'll have more forces on hand as we start winding down in Afghanistan, if you don't strike soon you will lose your chance.

When the war begins, probably around 2015-2020, both Middle East and East Asia will erupt simulanteously, completely overwhelming USA's ability to react. In the end, USA influence in both Middle East and East Asia will be fatally undermined by Iran, Russia and China. That is when the petrodollar collapses.

 

[anon45]

When the war begins, probably around 2015-2020, both Middle East and East Asia will erupt simulanteously, completely overwhelming USA's ability to react. In the end, USA influence in both Middle East and East Asia will be fatally undermined by Iran, Russia and China. That is when the petrodollar collapses.

but by 2015-2020 our capability to respond will have only grown as well as our our allies as they modernize their own militaries to respond to the emerging threats in their regions. The Philippines, Vietnam, Japan, they will be greater threats to China than they are today, as they have had time to build their militaries to directly counter China's own recent military.

Meanwhile the US will have made leaps and bounds in unmanned drones, the F-35 will be maturing and be in our arsenal in the hundreds, if not thousands. Laser and railgun technology will be in the field, Exoskeletons will reduce the burden on our supply chains, and overall we will be more capable of responding quickly and forcefully to aggression than we are today (not that our position today is weak in absolute terms, it is still quite potent, more than enough for China today). China isn't the only one 'modernizing' Sino, it is a constantly moving pole, and the US is at the forefront, and will be for at least the next decade.

Don't forget that the US will have become more energy independent than ever with the domestic gas and oil boom coming into its own along with more efficient vehicles, forget about oil independence, the US could be an oil exporter itself!

Meanwhile China's population will be growing older, its families more and more reliant emotionally and financially on the only sons they would be sending to their deaths, quite possibly their only source of social security in their old age. China's navy in 2020 will have not even come close to matching America's sheer naval capability today, much less their contemporaries in 2020.

No Sino, your window grows smaller and smaller as time passes. By your timeline not only will we have a stabler economy and recovered from the rigors of Afghanistan on our military structure, we will have continued to modernize, as well as our allies, and your adversaries.

You should attack now and take your chances now or watch as the odds turn further against you when it comes to aggressive action

 

[mareo2]

India, Vietnam, Philippines, Japan is too scared to form an anti-China alliance......

If we are so scared why no one of us as surrendered to the ridiculous territorial claims of the CCP?

Japan faces China all alone..... once USA turns its attention to Syria or Iran..... then China strikes!

Fine, bring it on. Well-informed people know that the MSDF can defeat the PLA Navy single-handedly.

But I totally accept Japanese claims on Takeshima and occupying South Korea is okay too!

The Republic of Korea is not a "thing" that can be given like a spoil of war. Is a sovereign country and the only reason why right now is not on the same level of power of Japan is because the CCP keep the Kim dynasty in power in the DPRK stopping the reunification of Korea. Unlike you, we no longer have delusional dreams of build an Empire. Two cities nuked is a lesson that I hope that Chinese people dont' have to learn.

 

[SinoChallenger]

but by 2015-2020 our capability to respond will have only grown as well as our our allies as they modernize their own militaries to respond to the emerging threats in their regions. The Philippines, Vietnam, Japan, they will be greater threats to China than they are today, as they have had time to build their militaries to directly counter China's own recent military.

LOL third world holes like Philippines and Vietnam will arms race with China? We grabbed Scarborough Shoal from Philippines like candy from a baby. Vietnam is on the verge of a popular uprising against the incompetent and corrupt VCP.

Japan has been economically stagnant for 20+ years now. Its debt-to-GDP ratio is staggering. The 2012 earthquakes are just the tip of the iceberg compared to the 8, 9 and 10 richter scale earthquakes in store in the next few years. Once China mass produces our Type 81 LHD amphibious landing platform, we can grab the whole Ryukyu Island chain.

Meanwhile the US will have made leaps and bounds in unmanned drones, the F-35 will be maturing and be in our arsenal in the hundreds, if not thousands. Laser and railgun technology will be in the field, Exoskeletons will reduce the burden on our supply chains, and overall we will be more capable of responding quickly and forcefully to aggression than we are today (not that our position today is weak in absolute terms, it is still quite potent, more than enough for China today). China isn't the only one 'modernizing' Sino, it is a constantly moving pole, and the US is at the forefront, and will be for at least the next decade.

USA is only at the forefront of science fiction. F-22 doesn't come with oxygen supply. F-35 is still not in service. LCS turned out to be a total failure (read the latest Aviation Week article). Zumwalt can't do area air defense and it only has one single conventional gun (might as well bring back the Iowa). The whole USA military-industrial complex is reduced to science fiction because of rampant government procurement nepotism and waste.

No Sino, your window grows smaller and smaller as time passes. By your timeline not only will we have a stabler economy and recovered from the rigors of Afghanistan on our military structure, we will have continued to modernize, as well as our allies, and your adversaries.

You should attack now and take your chances now or watch as the odds turn further against you when it comes to aggressive action

LOL right now China's GDP is only 60% of USA GDP. Last year (2012) our GDP went up again by 8%. USA
grew at 2% in 2012. If current trends continue, by 2020, USA and China GDP will be about equal

China is patient. Our allies Iran and Russia are patient. USA will get payback for its grotesque hegemony over the past 10+ years.

 

[SinoChallenger]

If we are so scared why no one of us as surrendered to the ridiculous territorial claims of the CCP?

Philippines and Vietnam already surrendered. They started 2012 planning big actions against China. They ended 2012 scared and powerless.

Fine, bring it on. Well-informed people know that the MSDF can defeat the PLA Navy single-handedly.

LOL without USA involvement, MSDF has no chance against combined PLAN, PLAAF and PLA land attack cruise missiles and you know it.

The Republic of Korea is not a "thing" that can be given like a spoil of war. Is a sovereign country and the only reason why right now is not on the same level of power of Japan is because the CCP keep the Kim dynasty in power in the DPRK stopping the reunification of Korea. Unlike you, we no longer have delusional dreams of build an Empire. Two cities nuked is a lesson that I hope that Chinese people dont' have to learn.

When Japan's occupation of Ryukyu Islands end, then China can agree Japan has learned its lesson!

 

[mareo2]

Philippines and Vietnam already surrendered. They started 2012 planning big actions against China. They ended 2012 scared and powerless.

I am not surprised that you try to convince yourself that a "stalemate" is a "surrender". Again do you see any headline talking about any country giving up their territorial claims? Because the headlines I read say that even Philippines is buying more weapons.

LOL without USA involvement, MSDF has no chance against combined PLAN, PLAAF and PLA land attack cruise missiles and you know it.

Under a closer look, combined: corruption + poor leadership + unreliable weapons = not so threatening

...8. The People's Liberation Army, Inc. Since the 1950s, China's armed forces (the People's Liberation Army) have fought a losing battle against corruption. Some of it has been outright theft most of it was diversion of military resources for commercial gain (by senior officers). The government ordered the generals to get rid of all their businesses in the 1990s. The generals have gone through the motions of complying, but the struggle continues over exactly where the money goes. This hurts the ability of the Chinese military to fight, but this is never discussed in China, for obvious reasons. Note that this has been a problem in China for several thousand years...

..10. Who's Ready for What? The size of armed forces usually is reported in terms of quantity, not quality. This is odd, since most wars are decided by the quality of the troops, not how many of them there are. "Readiness" is the term most often used to describe this and you rarely get a straight answer when looking for the readiness of any armed forces. But it's how much readiness a force has, not how many troops or weapons that says it all regarding fighting power...

Conflicts That Matter, That You Hardly Ever Hear About

"...The Navy’s next-generation warship, the 15,000-ton Zumwalt-class destroyer, is no good and can be destroyed by Chinese fishing boats armed with explosives, according to a leading Chinese military commentator, People’s Liberation Army Rear Adm. Zhang Zhaozhong..."

Widely known as China’s “Adm. Gaffe,” Adm. Zhang is a chief weapons specialist and strategist for the Chinese navy, currently serving as a professor at the Chinese military’s Defense University.

The most famous military face on Chinese national TV for the past decade, Adm. Zhang frequently entertains the nation with consistent miscalculations and wacky predictions.

He asserted that the U.S. would never attack Saddam Hussein for fear of getting mired in a Stalingrad-like “people’s war” in Baghdad. That was the day before the assault started in 2003.

He assured the Chinese nation hours before Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi’s demise that Libyan rebels failed to locate Gaddafi’s hiding place.

And one day before North Korea’s failed satellite launch April 14, the admiral announced on Chinese national television that North Korean leader Kim Jong-un would have an “80 percent probability of a launch success.”

Two weeks ago, Adm. Zhang predicted India had only a 60 percent probability of success in launching the Agni-5 ICBM. A couple of days later, India launched the rocket, which was reported to be a 100 percent success.

Inside China: Admiral says China can destroy destroyers By Miles Yu Wednesday, May 2, 2012

"...Whilst on the topic of China, PLAN submarines do not venture far from shore very often, and the navy’s anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability is comparatively weak. For example, no dedicated indigenous ASW helicopter is yet in Chinese service..."

REGIONAL ‘SURGE’ IN SUBMARINES & TECHNOLOGIES

"...According to Reuben Johnson, China’s particular technological development approach produces a common pattern in performance parameters of the systems it develops: “Chinese always seem to be able to achieve around 80% of the performance of whatever they’re trying to mimic; the last 20% would be difficult and expensive to accomplish.”..."

The “Long Pole in the Tent”: China’s Military Jet Engines December 09, 2012 By Andrew Erickson and Gabe Collins

"...A Venezuelan official attributed the jet's crash to "mechanical failure."..."

China-made fighter crashes in Venezuela, pilots safe 2012-11-29 04:18:56 GMT Sina english

"...“The J-11B program is in big trouble; the Chinese have lost a lot of aircraft in crashes,” said the U.S. source. “They have also reached a technological plateau and need help going to the next step beyond the Su-27/J-11.”..."

Is China Buying Russia’s Su-35 Fighter? Nov. 25, 2012 - 11:36AM | By WENDELL MINNICK

“Although the fact that the deal exists is true, some details in the article might be wrong,” warned Vasiliy Kashin, a China military specialist at the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST). “I’m not sure, for example, that the Amurs, which will be assembled in China, will be fitted with the Chinese AIP [air independent propulsion] systems using Stirling engines.”

The Chinese have expressed interest in Russian research in this field in the past, which might mean that their Stirling systems are not that reliable, he said.

Russia Sells New Subs To China

"...Missiles launched from land-based platforms are restricted to striking targets around China’s periphery, not so dissimilar to the range limitations faced by the Second Artillery Force’s inventory of conventional ballistic missiles...."

"...The PLAN, on the other hand, is the only branch of the Chinese military capable of projecting power far beyond China’s shores..."

"...It must be stressed, however, that arming Chinese warships with LACMs is not necessarily a silver bullet in a regional conflict. It is not clear how the PLAN would coordinate with other services such as the Second Artillery Force in the execution of a cruise missile attack. A saturated or sustained cruise missile bombardment from the navy alone may not be achievable given the limited number of ships and munitions..."

Chinese Navy Tests Land Attack Cruise Missiles: Implications for Asia-Pacific
by WILSON CHAU on Jul 25, 2012 • 4:07 pm

I am not an expert, but I think that I read a lot more than you about this. The PRC is still building and learning how to manage a navy bigger and more complex than just a "coastal navy", while Japan have a lot of experience, more quality equipment, more reliable weapons, more readiness and is all volunteer, meaning professional. The reason why the CCP keep playing provocations instead of attacking Japan is because they know that if the PLA lose a war against Japan the population can revolt or the PLA can stage a Coup d'etat.

When Japan's occupation of Ryukyu Islands end, then China can agree Japan has learned its lesson!

I dont' see any Okinawan setting itself on fire for "protest the japanese occupation", like the Tibetans in China. Or attacking people with knifes out of frustration and anger like the Uighurs attacking Han in Xijiang. And for the record: the family of my mother is from Okinawa.

 

[Sanchez]

*Yawn* then do it already, we'll have more forces on hand as we start winding down in Afghanistan, if you don't strike soon you will lose your chance.

IMO, only stupid american boys can dream a land war with China.

 

[Vitchilo]

You don't need a land war. Just park a few battlegroups off China and let the drones and B-2s do the job.

 

[Sanchez]

You don't need a land war. Just park a few battlegroups off China and let the drones and B-2s do the job.

Sure, it'd be all fantacy and a hand job. Do you speak french or english? Have Canadian boys done anything on her own?

Who cares about what Canada says?

 

[SinoChallenger]

I am not an expert, but I think that I read a lot more than you about this. The PRC is still building and learning how to manage a navy bigger and more complex than just a "coastal navy", while Japan have a lot of experience, more quality equipment, more reliable weapons, more readiness and is all volunteer, meaning professional. The reason why the CCP keep playing provocations instead of attacking Japan is because they know that if the PLA lose a war against Japan the population can revolt or the PLA can stage a Coup d'etat.

LOL keep deluding yourself. We already invade your Senkaku Islands with our coast guard ships and aircraft and you are too cowardly to stop us. Remember that F-15J that was shot down in the East China Sea a few years ago? That wasn't a "training accident"

I dont' see any Okinawan setting itself on fire for "protest the japanese occupation", like the Tibetans in China. Or attacking people with knifes out of frustration and anger like the Uighurs attacking Han in Xijiang. And for the record: the family of my mother is from Okinawa.

The Ryukyuans were brutally massacred by you Japanese. They will be an independent nation again. Meanwhile, your Japanese home islands will crack under 8, 9 and 10 Richter scale earthquakes. Yes, all Chinese cheer at the news.

You don't need a land war. Just park a few battlegroups off China and let the drones and B-2s do the job.

They are just target practice for our stealth fighters and submarines.

 

[anon45]

LOL third world holes like Philippines and Vietnam will arms race with China? We grabbed Scarborough Shoal from Philippines like candy from a baby. Vietnam is on the verge of a popular uprising against the incompetent and corrupt VCP.

And yet they are modernizing, and will be a greater threat to China by your timeline than they would be today. That would mean pulling resources from fighting the US to defending against Vietnamese and Filipino incursions, or even simply the possibility as consequences China's diplomatic and imperial missteps come home to roost. China would be in a lose-lose situation, unable to adequately protect itself on either front. This of course discounts India.

Japan has been economically stagnant for 20+ years now. Its debt-to-GDP ratio is staggering. The 2012 earthquakes are just the tip of the iceberg compared to the 8, 9 and 10 richter scale earthquakes in store in the next few years. Once China mass produces our Type 81 LHD amphibious landing platform, we can grab the whole Ryukyu Island chain.

And yet Japan is continuing to modernize its arsenals, a position that won't change by 2020. Japan has always been an earthquake prone country, that is not new, and so not really an issue.

You might want to try to grab the Senkakus first before you make the big and laughable claims of being capable of grabbing Okinawa, you sound like a chihuahua. All talk no bite. You have no credibility .

USA is only at the forefront of science fiction. F-22 doesn't come with oxygen supply. F-35 is still not in service. LCS turned out to be a total failure (read the latest Aviation Week article). Zumwalt can't do area air defense and it only has one single conventional gun (might as well bring back the Iowa). The whole USA military-industrial complex is reduced to science fiction because of rampant government procurement nepotism and waste.

All I can say is you are very uninformed and flat out wrong. the F-22 has had oxygen problems, but they are being fixed, and yes, it comes with an oxygen supply .

You are also flat out wrong about the F-35, the first operational F-35 squadron has already been formed at a marine air force base in Yuma, Arizona. The waste that exists in the US procurement process exists, but it is overhyped and vastly overestimated. The US could not do what it does if its procurement process was so out of whack with the US military's needs, its common sense Sino, use it.

I understand why you think its sci-fi, its very cutting edge mind-boggling stuff, and would totally throw your self-absorbed sense of imperial superiority out of whack. . Don't let that fool you though, it is real, and its coming very soon. You are free to disregard the very real steps the military is taking to prepare for the arrival of these systems at your own peril.

LOL right now China's GDP is only 60% of USA GDP. Last year (2012) our GDP went up again by 8%. USA
grew at 2% in 2012. If current trends continue, by 2020, USA and China GDP will be about equal

China is patient. Our allies Iran and Russia are patient. USA will get payback for its grotesque hegemony over the past 10+ years.

Except this trend is not continuing. China is slowing and the US economy is set to pick up due to a convergence of many trends, not least the economic windfall that comes with a more domestically based fuel economy. Meanwhile China will become more and more vulnerable as it relies more and more on foreign fuel sources.

In either case even if China did have a roughly equal gdp to the US, this would not have been the case for long enough to close the capability and technology gap.

Again you would have a better chance attacking now, so go on, run along and convince Iran and Russia to start wars wherever you expect them to. I'm sure they will agree with you.