China, India battle for aerospace lead

[history]

Actually it is not that complicated

My ex-GF worked in Sri-lanka with the world bank and I got the whole inside deal

Can we get back onto topic now please......

Was it the same GF whose links with the world bank president came under media scrutiny recently?

back to the topic, i think all this Ind-China thing is overblown. China is waaaay ahead in their aerospace devlopment. India wishes to get competitive and it looks that only India is the other major power in Asia that is serious about aerospace. Therefore the obvious comparisions.

 

[Titanium]

The more complicated part is the harmonics, The GT is just an open pipe (just like a flute), The problem is with so many components and stages and complex turbo machinery is that it is difficult to predict accurately about the resonant behavior right upto 6th harmonics or so, given the natural vibration modes of the huge number of components, I believe what they do is that they try to keep the number of turbine blades as prime numbers to avoid resonance, Make no mistake. The engineering challenges are huge and you will never learn these until you actually do this hands on and implement a design and learn from the inevitable mistakes. A CAD software or a text book is not going to throw the answer at you. This engineering "secret" sauce is one of the cakes what the top guys have learnt the hard way over 60 years and is a very closely guarded secret.

World engine developement never followed a fixed route of developement to reach a fixed design goal from first unlike what we were forced to do being late in the game, they developed a thrust level first then tweaked/redesigned it to gain the required thrust level, here GRTE is in such a position that it cannot install the engine in LCA if it gives 18000 lb's of thrust as they need the thrust of it to increase the thrust of the GE IN20's to be worth installing, and also not to kill the time required, you need to realise how hard it is to develope a engine directly to reach >20000 lb's of thrust in first try, they have done a long way, mis-management did happened in GRTE but thats another method of discussion.

To simply put it some shortfalls of the K9+ series will be solved in K10 series with colaboration, but no one will give you single crystal blade metallurgy, we have to come up with our own in that. none of this parametres denotes the engine being non-indigenous other than your insecure mind from nationalistic point of view. On the positive side they have been working masisvely on IR stealth and reduction technology and has achieved good amount of success, but then again developing it is way easy than developing single crystal turbine blades. Inspite of mismanagement, high bureaucracy, low payscale, and severe attrition they have came quite far.

I will await the next 20 years and will see what aero engine Pakistan will come up with.

Joey,

Tell me honestly did the "scientist and engineers" find all this complexity now, after 25 years of work in progress? Surely they must have known all the pitfalls when they took up the task of "Indeginous" LCA development.

What is more annoying is the blame game on "Inspite of mismanagement, high bureaucracy, low payscale, and severe attrition " as if these are not present in anywhere in the world. It is pure smoke screen for the inability of the scientists. These are facts which needs to accepted, rather than be in delusion and selfdeception.


Here is one more issue [or is it more than one] which they forgot in design stage maybe :

"Sea-level flights of Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), have thrown up questions relating to its installed thrust. If these are not resolved, it is possible that India’s fourth generation fighter aircraft programme, launched in 1983, could get further delayed.

The sea-level tests, basically meant to test the reliability of Tejas’ systems in dense (hot and humid) atmospheric conditions and its low-level flight characteristics, were “largely successful.” But it also became clear that the performance at sea level did not meet some key points in its flight envelope: notably in terms of maximum speed and take-off. Here the aircraft was not able to meet its targeted maximum speed of Mach 1.05, although it had been touching Mach 1.6 at higher altitudes"

 

[joey]

Joey,
Tell me honestly did the "scientist and engineers" find all this complexity now, after 25 years of work in progress? Surely they must have known all the pitfalls when they took up the task of "Indeginous" LCA development.

Your denial is legendary, but do I care about your opinion? nope, your previous replies attests to the fact of your quality of understanding or your ability to bring opinions from Utopia. Do I care about correcting about what you say in this thread? well I do since I came in this thread in the first place to reply. But if you continue trolling (look the definition of it in wikipedia before you lash out), I'll promptly ignore you just like the other gent did.

What is more annoying is the blame game on "Inspite of mismanagement, high bureaucracy, low payscale, and severe attrition " as if these are not present in anywhere in the world. It is pure smoke screen for the inability of the scientists. These are facts which needs to accepted, rather than be in delusion and selfdeception.

Have you read my post before replying from your figments of imagination like you did before? Or Now do you want me to paint my reply with blue and green dotted lines to catch your eye how to read a reply?

Here is one more issue [or is it more than one] which they forgot in design stage maybe :

"Sea-level flights of Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), have thrown up questions relating to its installed thrust. If these are not resolved, it is possible that India’s fourth generation fighter aircraft programme, launched in 1983, could get further delayed.

The sea-level tests, basically meant to test the reliability of Tejas’ systems in dense (hot and humid) atmospheric conditions and its low-level flight characteristics, were “largely successful.” But it also became clear that the performance at sea level did not meet some key points in its flight envelope: notably in terms of maximum speed and take-off. Here the aircraft was not able to meet its targeted maximum speed of Mach 1.05, although it had been touching Mach 1.6 at higher altitudes"

As I have told you I know more about Indian defence system than you will ever dream of knowing, The report is by Ravi sharma who reported how tejas only did some 30 test flights to test its envelope and all others were infront of ministers and foreign delegations. The same journo was also the one who wrote off the MMR as a failure (along with Arror whom I personally know) only to have details released later that the A2G mode was to be finalized. He also claimed that there were such huge losses in power transfer that range was reduced- on the LCA. Turned out that it was the HACK the MMR testbed, and the LCA in contrast has a fully allotted rack for the electronics to be colocated with the RF transmitters.This same twit also wrote that the LCA sufferred from poor estate management- upon asking, it turned out that it was an issue with the first TDs because of all the Flight test instrumentation stuffed into the bird. Fool also wrote that "anything less than an AESA is obsolete"- this when the MKI has a PESA, the Mirage and MiG-29 upgrades are getting MSA!

'Informed Sources' in Indian defence as per article also speaks, how good Shtil 1 system is over Barak they also speaks how bad Arjun is over T90 and also speaks how good Gorshkov is for India.

I'll quote,

P.S. Subramanyam, Programme Director LCA from the same article which seperates the chaff from wheat,

“The programme is on the fast track. We are planning to fit drop tanks and mid port bombs very shortly. Missile firing is also being planned. The present engines (F 404) will see me through IOC and FOC.”

Alas he cant even quote him properly, there is nothing called as mid port bombs.

Also reports,

A new, more powerful engine such as the GE 414 (which powers the F-16 Super Hornet), whose core is the same as the GE 404 but is heavier or a similar engine, may have to be tried.

F16 Falcon becomes a F-18 Super-Hornet when it get Super Hornet's F414 engine. Or put space shuttle engine and LCA will become a spacecraft.

 

[Titanium]

Your denial is legendary, but do I care about your opinion? nope your previous replies attests to the fact of your quality of understanding. Do I care about correcting about what you say in this thread? well I do since I came in this thread in the first place to reply. But if you continue trolling (look the definition of it in wikipedia before you lash out), I'll promptly ignore you just like the other gent did.

Joey,

Why are you getting personal? I never bothered whether my opnion matters to you or not. I am simply commenting on the recent finding of yours "how complicated the engine is!" post, as if HAL had not known this from H-24 MARUT experiance. I do understand you are emotional about LCA and also understand that you have been following the LCA development for more than 2 decades but does not make every critic or comment which does not suit you taste unworthy. So chill out your opinion matter least to me also.

As I have told you I know more about Indian defence system than you will ever dream of

Am not contesting here ..anyway the subject here is not "battle of aerospace between you and me"

knowing, The report is by Ravi sharma who reported how tejas only did some 30 test flights to test its envelope and all others were infront of ministers and foreign delegations. The same journo was also the one who wrote off the MMR as a failure (along with Arror whom I personally know) only to have details released later that the A2G mode was to be finalized. He also claimed that there were such huge losses in power transfer that range was reduced- on the LCA. Turned out that it was the HACK the MMR testbed, and the LCA in contrast has a fully allotted rack for the electronics to be colocated with the RF transmitters.This same twit also wrote that the LCA sufferred from poor estate management- upon asking, it turned out that it was an issue with the first TDs because of all the Flight test instrumentation stuffed into the bird. Fool also wrote that "anything less than an AESA is obsolete"- this when the MKI has a PESA, the Mirage and MiG-29 upgrades are getting MSA!

According to some most of the defence correspodents in india are traitors and the list is long shiv aroor, parsun sengupta, rahul bedi, ajai shukla, vijendra thakur ..... now add this gentleman.

P.S. Subramanyam, Programme Director LCA from the same article chich seperates the chaff from wheat,

Is it not the project directors promising one dead line after another --which is most realible for you.

the problem is not with engine thrust, but installed thrust. i.e. matching the inlet and diffuser geometry to provide optimal capture area, mass flow, pressure recovery and minimal distortion as required by the engine. It is an airframe-engine integration issue

Back to drawing table? see you then!!

 

[joey]

Joey,
Why are you getting personal? I never bothered whether my opnion matters to you or not. I am simply commenting on the news. I do understand you are emotional about LCA and also understand that you have been following the LCA development for more than 2 decades but does not make every critic or comment which does not suit you taste unworthy. So chill out your opinion matter least to me also.

no one is getting personal, but Its becoming irritating to see your level of intellect, whether it is deliberate or not is for all to see the reason I realised should have stopped replying to you right when chukkar did.

LCA is not emotional for me it was must for India, the LCA project has led to the MKI project the Jaguar upgrade, mig 23/27 upgrades the CAT programme and all these are major programms.

Am not contesting here ..anyway the subject here is not "battle of aerospace between you and me"

The subject here is nothing but to understand what is being said and reply in that rational sense, the attrition is a problem, the funding IS one of the problem, GRTE happens to be one of the most mismanaged lab and the lab to face most attrition was one of the reason I gave you, your flawed understanding has nothing to do with your drum beating about mis-interpretations of facts.

According to some most of the defence correspodents in india are traitors and the list is long shiv aroor, parsun sengupta, rahul bedi, ajai shukla, vijendra thakur ..... now add this gentleman.

Its not a matter of being traitor, Its a matter of being on whose vested interested these peoples are reporting it is as simple as it if you dont know or are not in the business you aint informed about these things, you should have seen war for media the blog which was deleted after the journalist was threatened with his life.

Ajay Shukla is a downright moron, and I have interacted with him. His points are void of PURE facts.

Shiv arror - does not knows what he was talking about, dont ask me from where I got this I'm reluctant to give the source and the proof, if you still insist I might. and now he has got a pic of the upcoming cruise missile which no-one did.

prasun sengupta - of Force villifies the claims that we have a JV with brazil for LRSAM, Irbis is AESA, MKI is invincible and what not seriously from how many times are you following force? Prasun is facing a lawsuit from somewhere else for his plagiriasation.

Rest not go into the others.

Is it not the project directors promising one dead line after another --which is most realible for you.

The project director of LCA is here from quite long time, and the date of LCA WAS FIXED FROM ITS FIRST FLIGHT IN 2001 that it will be 2010 for IOC and subsequent FOC, Read what Air Marshal Wollen writes on it. Again you distort what I tried to say, the reporter is even misquoting what the project director is saying, mid-port bombs?

Back to drawing table? see you then!!

hehe unfortunately that is not the case, the both engines are absolutely similar and they are performing flawlessly the integration of IN20 is being done as we speak dont know with which engine this bird went up air because of its similarities with the older engine which has passed all tests, the older engine did performed flawlessly as well and it has less thrust than the new one. The sea level tests is much more than testing in the low level altitude.

 

[Titanium]

Its not a matter of being traitor, Its a matter of being on whose vested interested these peoples are reporting it is as simple as it if you dont know or are not in the business you aint informed about these things, you should have seen war for media the blog which was deleted after the journalist was threatened with his life.

Ajay Shukla is a downright moron, and I have interacted with him. His points are void of PURE facts.

Whose interest are they working? surely not ISI I hope, the way you are painting their knowledge.

Give some due to the Ajay shukla, after all he is retired Colnel, he may know a thing or two about defence equipment. Ofcourse he may not share the same views as you about Arjun tank.

 

[joey]

Whose interest are they working? surely not ISI I hope, the way you are painting their knowledge.

Give some due to the Ajay shukla, after all he is retired Colnel, he may know a thing or two about defence equipment. Ofcourse he may not share the same views as you about Arjun tank.

Their knowledge and facts can be OPENLY verified, I'm not claiming anything from my foot over ones head stuff, Logic and official sources proves them wrong in most ocassions that is not what i'm painting but what I see I judge and I conclude on.

Yeah retired colonel talks about planes, and its timelines , regarding tanks check the CNN IBN the video posted, it was done by ajay shukla only on arjun tank, a long time cricizer of Arjun suddenly becomes a proponent of Arjun? what gave away the change?

get real, colonel can have different opinion regarding the doctrine and sutiability of arjun tank including logistics et al but mis-reporting facts, timelines et al hardly proves his credibility which he did and does.

As I have told you problems can be there which can happen but issue here is HOW THE MEDIA REPORTS THINGS is not the correct way because it does not paints the true picture, I have already posted the issue regarding previous articles of Ravi sharma.

Bottomline, there is no way of confirming anything until and unless we get to hear de-factro official report, we can only judge the status of a reported based on his past reporting and verifying the same with official sources when they came out.

 

[Titanium]

Bottomline, there is no way of confirming anything until and unless we get to hear de-factro official report, we can only judge the status of a reported based on his past reporting and verifying the same with official sources when they came out.

What do you expect from "official" report? that LCA is being redesigned as we just found out that air-intake is not adequate and moreover the aerodynamic design also found to be induce excessive drag also one more thing we will install a monstrous GE 414 Engine so that this light aircraft will become supersonic brahmos?

Seriouslu Joey, you claim so much indian defence Knowledge and still behave like naive.

 

[Chukkar]

What do you expect from "official" report? that LCA is being redesigned as we just found out that air-intake is not adequate and moreover the aerodynamic design also found to be induce excessive drag also one more thing we will install a monstrous GE 414 Engine so that this light aircraft will become supersonic brahmos?

Seriouslu Joey, you claim so much indian defence Knowledge and still behave like naive.

Titanium, please stop acting like a juvenile, and trolling all over the place. Its a wonder that Joey has responded patiently to you, without losing his cool.
Only an imbecile would make generalizations the manner in which you have, not to mention the mocking tone in which you write with silly emoticons. You are taking this forum down with your behaviour, and its a wonder that the admins havent stopped you yet. Till now everyone here has kept quiet and not looked askance at your behaviour, but for how long.

Coming to your claims, its no surprise that any aircraft which has an engine not designed for it, will have to be optimized to have that engine perform at its maximum. The Indians were developing a flat rated Kaveri which would deliver the same dry thrust irrespective of operating altitude, ambient temperature and height. The Ge404IN20 on the other hand, delivers more thrust than the F2J3 and should meet what the Indians require of it. Before you get too ahead of yourself with your jingoism, even the JF-17 had its intakes redesigned to account for a performance shortfall. The J-10 likewise, when the AL-31FN replaced the original Chinese origin powerplant at the time, which went back into R&D mode and will probably appear in the future (WS-10). This is but common sense.

Coming to the LCA and low altitude, the Indians are trying for a very high benchmark- namely a fighter that can go supersonic at very low altitude on thrust equivalent to the Ge404 F2J3, thats a job best left to the IN20 equipped LCAs, especially when the F2J3 offers the same thrust as the planned Kaveri, but is not flat rated so will suffer a performance drop at low altitude without the FADEC spoolup for higher thrust. In contrast the IN20 will offer more power. That is why the Project Director is not unduly concerned about the engine at present, and justifiably regards the weaponization as the more critical task. There is no way the Indians will delay the program to put in a Ge414 especially when the engine is by no means of any proven provenance and has a long way to go to mature.

 

[Titanium]

Titanium, please stop acting like a juvenile, and trolling all over the place. Its a wonder that Joey has responded patiently to you, without losing his cool.
Only an imbecile would make generalizations the manner in which you have, not to mention the mocking tone in which you write with silly emoticons. You are taking this forum down with your behaviour, and its a wonder that the admins havent stopped you yet. Till now everyone here has kept quiet and not looked askance at your behaviour, but for how long.

Did I invite you to comment? or forcing you and your gang to respond? If what am saying, which are facts, makes you uneasy please you can stay away and it is not compulsary for you to reply..You may have your opinion,I have mine based upon my sources. Moreover you are not a mod here to advice, so stop THE BS.

The Indians were developing a flat rated Kaveri which would deliver the same dry thrust irrespective of operating altitude, ambient temperature and height.

Could we start with simple diesal engine, whic by the way is in development from 1973, before embarking on Jet engine.

The Ge404IN20 on the other hand, delivers more thrust than the F2J3 and should meet what the Indians require of it.

Is the lack of engine thrust? how much thrust do you think a light aircraft of size of LCA require? If you do not know about aircraft, don't write something to make a fool of yourself. The problem is with the poor design. In trying to make "Indegenous" design, a perfect design handed down by Dassault is ruined. Now either get back to the original design or make a soup of the already frankiestain design... tough choice hah!
.

Coming to the LCA and low altitude, the Indians are trying for a very high benchmark- namely a fighter that can go supersonic at very low altitude on thrust equivalent to the Ge404 F2J3,

Go on tell the world. you were on the way to set world record.

That is why the Project Director is not unduly concerned about the engine at present,

Have you guys still have hopes in the deadline set by the projects managers or is it have to do with limited chioce?

LCA is not emotional for me it was must for India, the LCA project has led to the MKI project the Jaguar upgrade, mig 23/27 upgrades the CAT programme and all these are major programms.

Accept as Joey finally accepted that LCA was must for India, now LCA is History, we can debate what it could have become or what really gone wrong, as we so often debate the history.

 

[joey]

What do you expect from "official" report? that LCA is being redesigned as we just found out that air-intake is not adequate and moreover the aerodynamic design also found to be induce excessive drag also one more thing we will install a monstrous GE 414 Engine so that this light aircraft will become supersonic brahmos?

Seriouslu Joey, you claim so much indian defence Knowledge and still behave like naive.

No 1. Official Report is classified as follows,

1. Direct verificable Quotes from The peoples in the team.
2. Official Newsletters.
3. MOD report every year.
4. Parliamentary report.

None of which qualifies for the report that came out, Am I Clear?

No 2. There will be no re-design of air-intake, nor any report talks about aerodynamic design being inefficient.

No 3. There is no question about installing GE F414, Conclusion based on philology is not considered one to be worthy, Please refrain from trolling else be ready to get ignored like many

No 5. So far you have not shown your credibility to be worthy considering the one who can judge who is naive here and who is not.

Did I invite you to comment? or forcing you and your gang to respond? If what am saying, which are facts, makes you uneasy please you can stay away and it is not compulsary for you to reply..You may have your opinion,I have mine based upon my sources. Moreover you are not a mod here to advice, so stop THE BS.

Facts according to whom you? Gracious spare us from the BS.

Could we start with simple diesal engine, whic by the way is in development from 1973, before embarking on Jet engine.

You want to start to do something with us? Is it what the question STATED to you? or your inable to read what is being written? I have puted enough data regarding Kaveri to you.

Is the lack of engine thrust? how much thrust do you think a light aircraft of size of LCA require? If you do not know about aircraft, don't write something to make a fool of yourself. The problem is with the poor design. In trying to make "Indegenous" design, a perfect design handed down by Dassault is ruined. Now either get back to the original design or make a soup of the already frankiestain design... tough choice hah!

Sorry to bust your bubble, Aircraft thrust is determined in the GQASR (GENERAL QUALITITATIVE AIR STAFF REQUIREMENTS) and it was long known that the F2J3 thrust will not be what will LCA need and thus the need of IN20 engines. With an unusual twist of things the IN20 engines will be incorporated from LSP 02 onwards which will make up for any shortfall of thrust, then the kaveri is there. Thus all this loss of thrust is much ado about nothing. the need for higher thrust engine aka the IN20 and subsequently the IN20 was long felt over the presently installed F2J3.

Your re-stating the myths proven wrong before thus losing your already lost credibility, There has been NO qualms about design.

Accept as Joey finally accepted that LCA was must for India, now LCA is History, we can debate what it could have become or what really gone wrong, as we so often debate the history.

Do you need a Wren & Martin high school grammer book to comprehend English? The was signifies the developement of LCA and the project LCA which started in the past which is reflected in the word 'was'.

 

[Titanium]

we all agree you are the only knowledgeble person on defence matter, but don't loose the perspective, when adverse comment on LCA passed. We don't want to lose you Joey like Adux and MM, just stick to the topic in discussion, whether I am as knowledgeable as you or just troll , leave it to mod or admins, ok?

Sorry to bust your bubble, Aircraft thrust is determined in the GQASR (GENERAL QUALITITATIVE AIR STAFF REQUIREMENTS)

Joey the all Knowledgeble person of Indian defence, which no one can Dream of

As I have told you I know more about Indian defence system than you will ever dream of

could you please provide the GQASR here, for forum memebers benefit. Thanks in advance.

and it was long known that the F2J3 thrust will not be what will LCA need and thus the need of IN20 engines.

And we are talking about Light aircraft for whom GE 404 thrust felt inadequate? heh..

With an unusual twist of things the IN20 engines will be incorporated from LSP 02 onwards which will make up for any shortfall of thrust, then the kaveri is there. Thus all this loss of thrust is much ado about nothing. the need for higher thrust engine aka the IN20 and subsequently the IN20 was long felt over the presently installed F2J3.

Is there bollywood story behind that... that will end in happy ever after. Seriosly Joey the kind of attachment you have developed and the optimism ....what can I say.

There is a saying, a horse trainer Identify the race horse from a would be, very early just by observing "the way it walks". Tragically it looks like, Lca is anything but a race horse.

 

[EagleEyes]

Instead of making fun of posts. Please put it in a simple way. "I dont agree." And if you have a counter argument provide it, or just loose it.

 

[joey]

we all agree you are the only knowledgeble person on defence matter, but don't loose the perspective, when adverse comment on LCA passed. We don't want to lose you Joey like Adux and MM, just stick to the topic in discussion, whether I am as knowledgeable as you or just troll , leave it to mod or admins, ok?

Look for the definition of the word I used, IT was not out of context.

Joey the all Knowledgeble person of Indian defence, which no one can Dream of could you please provide the GQASR here, for forum memebers benefit. Thanks in advance.

First of all you lack English reading skills and what to read when in what context, If you again see what you wrote I never claimed of having the ASR,

Is the lack of engine thrust? how much thrust do you think a light aircraft of size of LCA require? If you do not know about aircraft, don't write something to make a fool of yourself. The problem is with the poor design. In trying to make "Indegenous" design, a perfect design handed down by Dassault is ruined. Now either get back to the original design or make a soup of the already frankiestain design... tough choice hah!

Soo many conclusion and repetitive use of the same point inspite of being proven wrong? and then asking me to provide the ASR?

Read my statement again, You defined the shortfall in thrust due to poor design due to changing the design handed over by Dassault which has been proven wrong , I stated F2J3 was never meant to give the ASR thrust it needs, the reason IN20 engines was needed from the right very first, the reason it is absolutely necesary for kaveri to touch the 20000 lb mark. It can be verified from many open sources.

And we are talking about Light aircraft for whom GE 404 thrust felt inadequate? heh..

yes! It was deemed inadequate right from beginning, Same goes for Gripen and LCA, its not matter of light and heavy.

Is there bollywood story behind that... that will end in happy ever after. Seriosly Joey the kind of attachment you have developed and the optimism ....what can I say.

There is a saying, a horse trainer Identify the race horse from a would be, very early just by observing "the way it walks". Tragically it looks like, Lca is anything but a race horse.

Hehe I used that word with a 'unusual twist of fate' to test how fill or empty the pot really is.

The F2J3 engine thrust was felt less from very first, even Gripen uses a Volvo Modified RM12 engine, which has more thrust the IN20 engine will solve the thrust issue which was known from years will be incorporated from LSP 02 this is nothing twist in the tale but known fact refer to AFM issues and some others than when IN20's will be integrated, it just passed succesful equivalent 1000 hours ground tests in Bangalore. Even if IN20 gets in shortfall of thrust Kaveri will do it which is a flat-rated engine, but its matter of speculation.

Regarding optimism, I'm not concluding anything till I see IOC nor I can conclude anything, the only things I'm stating are proven facts, the only thing your argueing with is unproven myths.

 

[Titanium]

First of all you lack English reading skills and what to read when in what context, If you again see what you wrote I never claimed of having the ASR,
.

You don't know what ASR requirement and you never had ASR ,still you went ahead to claim:

Aircraft thrust is determined in the GQASR (GENERAL QUALITITATIVE AIR STAFF REQUIREMENTS) and it was long known that the F2J3 thrust will not be what will LCA need and thus the need of IN20 engines.
.

Should we not ask for ASR from a person who is more knowledge than any person can dream of ?

asking me to provide the ASR?
.

Who shall I ask for proof, if not from a person who claimed GQASR?

Read my statement again, You defined the shortfall in thrust due to poor design due to changing the design handed over by Dassault which has been proven wrong , I stated F2J3 was never meant to give the ASR thrust it needs, the reason IN20 engines was needed from the right very first (really?), the reason it is absolutely necesary for kaveri to touch the 20000 lb mark. It can be verified from many open sources.

yes! It was deemed inadequate (who?)right from beginning, Same goes for Gripen and LCA, its not matter of light and heavy.
.

Proven!!! When ???
Care to provide your open sources for every one's benefit instead of Bioler plates?

Even if IN20 gets in shortfall of thrust Kaveri will do it which is a flat-rated engine, but its matter of speculation.
.

You are now carefully hedging your bets on IN20, Smart boy! If GE 404 thrust is not sufficient then a bigger engine will not solve the problem. The problem is called "Installed thrust" not engine thrust, if you know the difference!!Kaveri ? do you want me to comment?

Regarding optimism, I'm not concluding anything till I see IOC nor I can conclude anything, the only things I'm stating are proven facts, the only thing your argueing with is unproven myths.

See, I mentioned in my previos post, we can discuss India's aerospace prowess "when LCA get IOC or after 15 years" which ever is earliest. You and I seem to agree here ATLEAST Till then LCA is myth not fact, OK?