China Distorts History Ahead of World War II Commemoration

[William Hung]

惡 does not equal evil in english like I have explained. The concept of evil is associated with a religion that is alien to Chinese. And I think even many Chinese today, would not understand evil in that context, because there is no such word that carry that meaning in Chinese language.

Like I said, it doesn’t matter how Chinese people use 惡 or how westerners use “evil”. What is relevant here is how us Vietnamese use “ac” (惡). And even if we’re using it incorrectly, it doesnt really matter for this discussion. The point was, we don’t have any other equivalent indigenous words for “ac”.

Therefore it is possible that without knowing a word would mean ignorant of the idea associated with the word.

Just like ancient people did not know the word "blue", therefore it is possible that they do not actually "see" the color blue.

This was the theory and argument of your friend. So let’s focus on this.

Since degree of badness that is more than misdemeanor is common in most human culture, I would think that the possibility that your ancestor know would be pretty large.

I would think so too. I’m not trying to argue that ancient Viet society was a pure peaceful utopia.

And I find it very hard to believe that ancient Vietnamese do not have such a word. It seem illogical to have a commonly known concept and yet do not have a word to communicate it.

But we really don’t have any other alternative equivalent indigenous word for “ac”. We have indigenous words for “good” and the lesser “bad”, but none for “evil” like ac.

If you are suggesting that our Viet ancestors once had an indigenous word for the idea of “evil” but then replaced it with “ac” (惡), then that’s entirely possible. But this would also refute the theory you mentioned above.

Therefore it is more likely that since the concept "bad" is not a NEW concept to ancient Vietnamese, then they use the word "bad" in Vietnamese to describe all degree of badness. Or they use some kind of quantifier like "very bad" to differentiate degree.

No, that would not work. Like I said, our indigenous word for “bad” is not equivalent to our word for evil, “ac”. Just like in English, the word “bad” does not convey the exact same meaning as the word “evil”.

Putting quantifiers in front of our indigenous word for bad does not make it equivalent to evil either. I think this is also similar in English.

- kid stealing candies = bad.
- kid stealing money = very bad.
- kid stealing money from parents = extremely bad.
- kid murdering parents for money = extremely extremely extremely bad?? No, these quantifiers would not be enough, the word “evil” would be the more appropriate word for this case.

In Vietnamese, “ac” is totally on a different level from our word for “bad”. I previously tried to differentiate this by saying how our “ac” (惡) has a much “darker” connotation to our word for “bad”. Putting quantifiers in front of “bad” will still not convey the same meaning.

If you were saying that our Viet ancestor once used our indigenous word for “bad” to convey the concept of “evil” but then later changed the the meaning of “bad” amd then replaced it with the chinese character 惡 “ac”, well that’s entirely possible but that too will refute the theory you mentioned.

And “ac” (惡) is just one example. We also have other cases like “tham“/“ham” (borrowed from 貪), our word for “greed” where we have no indigenous words that convey any similar idea at all (at least for 惡, we have indigenous words for “bad” that are related to a certain extent, but for 貪, we do not have any other related indigenous words at all).

So, my original question still remains.

 

[tranquilium]

China Distorts History Ahead of World War II Commemoration
Aug 17, 2015|by Richard Sisk

China spent last week excoriating Japan for twisting the history of World War II while spreading distortions of its own on the 70th anniversary of the war's end.

Even China's Global Times, a tabloid owned by the People's Daily Communist Party newspaper, said China had gone too far by putting photos of an actor portraying Mao Tse-tung (now Mao Zedong) on posters for a movie on the Cairo Conference of 1943.

Mao was not in Cairo for the meeting on war strategy with President Franklin D. Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill but his arch-enemy, Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, was.

The Global Times quoted art critic Sima Pingbang as saying that "By featuring Mao, who was not present at the meeting, but excluding Chiang, the poster shows no respect for history nor to Mao."

China was playing up Mao's exploits during World War II ahead of the Sept. 3 military parade and commemoration of what is known in Beijing as the "Chinese People's War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression and World Anti-Fascist War."

However, most historians say it was Chiang's Kuomintang (KMT) forces that bore the brunt of the fighting against Japan while Mao saved his troops for the 1945-49 civil war, which ended with Chiang fleeing to Formosa (Taiwan).

The Cairo film was one of more than 10 new movies,12 TV dramas, 20 documentaries and 183 war-themed stage performances in China leading up to Sept. 3, Reuters reported.

The military parade in Tiananmen Square has posed a dilemma for world leaders unwilling to attend a display of China's military might yet also unwilling to offend a world economic power.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has said he would attend but the U.S., Britain, India and others have yet to commit. It was also not known if Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe had been sent an invitation.

Last Friday, as Japan marked the 70th anniversary, the conservative and nationalist Abe expressed "deep remorse" for Japan's actions but did not make an apology of his own. He also said that future generations of Japanese should not have to apologize.

The following day, the 81-year-old Emperor Akihito, whose father Emperor Hirohito announced Japan's surrender, expressed his own sorrow over the war in what some Japanese commentators saw as a rebuke to Abe.

"Reflecting on our past and bearing in mind the feelings of deep remorse over the last war, I earnestly hope that the ravages of war will never be repeated," Akihito said.

A commentary in China's official Xinhua news agency charged that the "revisionist" Abe had "shied away from assuming responsibility for launching a war of aggression upon other countries, saying Japan tried to 'overcome its diplomatic and economic deadlock through the use of force.'"

The U.S. left its response to National Security Council spokesman Ned Price who said in a statement that "We welcome Prime Minister Abe's expression of deep remorse for the suffering caused by Japan during the World War II era, as well as his commitment to uphold past Japanese government statements on history."

"We also value Prime Minister Abe's assurances of Japan's intent to expand upon its contributions to international peace and prosperity in the years ahead."

China Distorts History Ahead of World War II Commemoration | Military.com

Oh please, if you have the slightly idea of how the Chines theatre of WWII progressed, you wouldn't believe the idiocy spewed by the article. Lying by omission is still lying.

The war between Japan and China started long before WWII. The Chinese CCP officially declared war against Japan in 1932 with the Japan invasion of Northeast China. The full war started with Japan invasion of rest of the China in 1937. (Funny thing how, KMT, for some reason, did not dare to declare war until 1941 where US entered the war)

The Japanese full invasion of China started in 1937, however, after initial quick advances, it soon become stalled down because Japan had reached its upper limit in mobilization capacity and continued guerrilla warfare waged by CCP has result in 1.5 million Japan troop, roughly half of the total invasion force to China being boggled in occupied region of China. In addition, millions of Japanese collaborator troops are also boggled down by continued attack from CCP's guerrilla forces. CCP's effort means Japan begin to lose both troops and supply at a continued pace. Eventually, the attribution reached a level that Japan is forced to invade southeast Asia for resources, thus putting it in direct conflict with US.

And the idea Mao somehow "saved" his troops for later civil war is idiotic. Let's look at it shall we? You started with a 100,000 poorly equipped soldiers. You spent 8 years deep behind enemy lines and launch daily raid against fortified Japan positions. After 8 long years with no supply from friendly territory, you ended up with 1,500,000 battle hardened troops and popular support of majority of the Chinese in these occupied regions. In your mind, this means Mao "saved" his troops?

 

[JSCh]

Like I said, it doesn’t matter how Chinese people use 惡 or how westerners use “evil”. What is relevant here is how us Vietnamese use “ac” (惡). And even if we’re using it incorrectly, it doesnt really matter for this discussion. The point was, we don’t have any other equivalent indigenous words for “ac”.




This was the theory and argument of your friend. So let’s focus on this.



I would think so too. I’m not trying to argue that ancient Viet society was a pure peaceful utopia.



But we really don’t have any other alternative equivalent indigenous word for “ac”. We have indigenous words for “good” and the lesser “bad”, but none for “evil” like ac.

If you are suggesting that our Viet ancestors once had an indigenous word for the idea of “evil” but then replaced it with “ac” (惡), then that’s entirely possible. But this would also refute the theory you mentioned above.



No, that would not work. Like I said, our indigenous word for “bad” is not equivalent to our word for evil, “ac”. Just like in English, the word “bad” does not convey the exact same meaning as the word “evil”.

Putting quantifiers in front of our indigenous word for bad does not make it equivalent to evil either. I think this is also similar in English.

- kid stealing candies = bad.
- kid stealing money = very bad.
- kid stealing money from parents = extremely bad.
- kid murdering parents for money = extremely extremely extremely bad?? No, these quantifiers would not be enough, the word “evil” would be the more appropriate word for this case.

In Vietnamese, “ac” is totally on a different level from our word for “bad”. I previously tried to differentiate this by saying how our “ac” (惡) has a much “darker” connotation to our word for “bad”. Putting quantifiers in front of “bad” will still not convey the same meaning.

If you were saying that our Viet ancestor once used our indigenous word for “bad” to convey the concept of “evil” but then later changed the the meaning of “bad” amd then replaced it with the chinese character 惡 “ac”, well that’s entirely possible but that too will refute the theory you mentioned.

And “ac” (惡) is just one example. We also have other cases like “tham“/“ham” (borrowed from 貪), our word for “greed” where we have no indigenous words that convey any similar idea at all (at least for 惡, we have indigenous words for “bad” that are related to a certain extent, but for 貪, we do not have any other related indigenous words at all).

So, my original question still remains.

If what you say about Vietnamese is correct, that "ac" is a different concept than just extremely bad, then it could be that the concept do not exist.

Since there is no word for it and no quantifier can be enough, then how would the concept be communicated and shared commonly between member of a society? By explaining through long passage like a book?

 

[William Hung]

If what you say about Vietnamese is correct, that "ac" is a different concept than just extremely bad, then it could be that the concept do not exist.

Since there is no word for it and no quantifier can be enough, then how would the concept be communicated and shared commonly between member of a society? By explaining through long passage like a book?

Well, that would mean that my Viet ancestors did not know evil and greed until they have learnt and adopt it from your han Chinese ancestors. If you follow your reasoning then you would have to accept this conclusion.

This reasoning was similar to the original argument I was replying to. The claim was something like: the Japanese does not have any indigenous words for “guilt” so this concept did not exist in their culture (until they adopt it from the Chinese).

 

[Place Of Space]

The writer Richard Sisk need to enhance his reading ability of Chinese history. Where did he find distorting the history?

After Xi'an incident, the all national unified forces formed, that's the second KMT-CCP cooperation period.
"The KMT fought against on the frontline battlefield, CCP fought against on the battlefield behind enemy lines."

This was the situation and recorded in history book as well.

 

[JSCh]

Well, that would mean that my Viet ancestors did not know evil and greed until they have learnt and adopt it from your han Chinese ancestors. If you follow your reasoning then you would have to accept this conclusion.

This reasoning was similar to the original argument I was replying to. The claim was something like: the Japanese does not have any indigenous words for “guilt” so this concept did not exist in their culture (until they adopt it from the Chinese).

Let I told you, the 惡 in Chinese doesn't mean the same thing as you describe in Vietnamese. So Vietnamese did not learn it from Chinese, they either invent it all by themselves or they imagine the Chinese mean that. Maybe they learn the concept after contact with Abrahamic religion and attribute that concept to the Chinese word 惡. Just like how Chinese get to know about the concept of evil.

And about the "guilt", I think the claim is that the word/concept do not exist in Japanese.

Is there any mention that Japanese learn that concept by adopting Chinese word?

 

[XiangLong]

So in reality, today female soldiers in white man military is military prostitute.

The soldiers fcuk one another and all complaints of rape and sexual harassment or thrown out (these female soldiers serving combat duties should already been tacitly briefed about their roles and yet they feign victim).

Comfort Women was paid 60x the salary of nurse and Japan Army provide education to Comfort Women in occasions. Given that among of salary, I think 30% of women today will choose Comfort women career path.

Comfort Women is like investment banking job.

And Japanese Imperial Army did have some humane side.

The Comfort Women: Sexual Violence and Postcolonial Memory in Korea and Japan - C. Sarah Soh - Google Books
View attachment 248313

The f*ck did I just read?

Also, you might want to check your own source. While she was indeed paid sixty times more than a nurse, her handler deducted her salary for cosmetics, clothes and personal belongings. So in the end, she still had nothing!

While as a nurse she was able to make SOME money at the very least.

 

[William Hung]

Let I told you, the 惡 in Chinese doesn't mean the same thing as you describe in Vietnamese. So Vietnamese did not learn it from Chinese, they either invent it all by themselves or they imagine the Chinese mean that. Maybe they learn the concept after contact with Abrahamic religion and attribute that concept to the Chinese word 惡. Just like how Chinese get to know about the concept of evil.

And about the "guilt", I think the claim is that the word/concept do not exist in Japanese.

Is there any mention that Japanese learn that concept by adopting Chinese word?

I already told you, our concept of evil is not the same as what you said either (inherently bad, redemption, etc.). It just mean extreme bad (but none of our indigenous words for bad can convey that level of badness, even with quantifiers). Not sure if you are being honest if you deny that Chinese has any concept of extreme bad either.

What about 貪 our adopted word for greed? Why did you ignore it? This one should be clear, it means greed and we have no other indigenous words for it. So will you say that my ancestor had no concept of greed before they learnt it from your ancestor?

We use 貪 for greed, not a abrahamic religious word, so I dont think you can say we learnt it from the other non-Chinese foreigners.

 

[Jlaw]

No such thing as good and evil. Get over it people.

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

The f*ck did I just read?

Also, you might want to check your own source. While she was indeed paid sixty times more than a nurse, her handler deducted her salary for cosmetics, clothes and personal belongings. So in the end, she still had nothing!

While as a nurse she was able to make SOME money at the very least.

Lux De Veritas is a schizophrenic idiot. One moment he is making good decent comments and the next he is shitting out of his mouth all over the place.

Sometimes his comments make me want to kick the shit out of him and his blue a55.

 

[JSCh]

I already told you, our concept of evil is not the same as what you said either (inherently bad, redemption, etc.). It just mean extreme bad (but none of our indigenous words for bad can convey that level of badness, even with quantifiers). Not sure if you are being honest if you deny that Chinese has any concept of extreme bad either.

What about 貪 our adopted word for greed? Why did you ignore it? This one should be clear, it means greed and we have no other indigenous words for it. So will you say that my ancestor had no concept of greed before they learnt it from your ancestor?

We use 貪 for greed, not a abrahamic religious word, so I dont think you can say we learnt it from the other non-Chinese foreigners.

Greed probably comes after the concept of property/possession? Desire for things that are legally or morally that are not rightfully yours, would have prerequisite a definition/rule for what is rightfully yours? But feeling envious is probably more basic.

You are correct that 貪 is not a abrahamic religious word, but I believe greed is one of the seven deadly sins.

貪 is a word associated with Buddhism, said to come from a Sanskrit word lobha or rāga. Doesn't Buddhism in Vietnam has the concept of the three poisons, 貪瞋癡? maybe Vietnamese use different words for those? In Buddhism, 貪 means far more than common meaning of greed, it means sin of attachment. As you are probably aware, a Buddhist monk would require to give up almost all property/possession/attachment. Raga (Buddhism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You claim that Vietnamese do not have that word before contact with Chinese, even verbally? Well I do not know if it is true or not. I would have expect the contact to be fairly ancient? Otherwise Vietnamese would have no word to express greed for a long time? Do you guys share everything among yourselves in a community, and do not differentiate property/possession?

Well, I guess it could be that Vietnamese learn everything including basic concept from Chinese, that is hardly surprising, since you are part of the Sinic sphere.

 

[William Hung]

Greed probably comes after the concept of property/possession? Desire for things that are legally or morally that are not rightfully yours, would have prerequisite a definition/rule for what is rightfully yours? But feeling envious is probably more basic.

You are correct that 貪 is not a abrahamic religious word, but I believe greed is one of the seven deadly sins.

貪 is a word associated with Buddhism, said to come from a Sanskrit word lobha or rāga. Doesn't Buddhism in Vietnam has the concept of the three poisons, 貪瞋癡? maybe Vietnamese use different words for those? In Buddhism, 貪 means far more than common meaning of greed, it means sin of attachment. As you are probably aware, a Buddhist monk would require to give up almost all property/possession/attachment. Raga (Buddhism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You claim that Vietnamese do not have that word before contact with Chinese, even verbally? Well I do not know if it is true or not. I would have expect the contact to be fairly ancient? Otherwise Vietnamese would have no word to express greed for a long time? Do you guys share everything among yourselves in a community, and do not differentiate property/possession?

Our Buddhism is Mahayana, spread to Viet Nam through China. Even if 貪 is originally a Buddhist concept, we still learnt it via China. The fact that we once used 貪 itself (Hanzi was once the written language) woyld mean that we borrowed that word from China and not from someone else.

And yes, we really do not have any other indigenous words for it.

Well, I guess it could be that Vietnamese learn everything including basic concept from Chinese, that is hardly surprising, since you are part of the Sinic sphere.

How did you go from the premise that we learn “greed” and “evil” to conclude that we learnt “everything”? we have indigenous words for most other basic things, like the example of “good” I mentioned earlier. So my ancestors did not learnt “every” basic concepts from your Chinese ancestors, but they did learnt some concepts like “greed” and “evil” from your ancestors, according to your reasoning.

 

[JSCh]

Our Buddhism is Mahayana, spread to Viet Nam through China. Even if 貪 is originally a Buddhist concept, we still learnt it via China. The fact that we once used 貪 itself (Hanzi was once the written language) woyld mean that we borrowed that word from China and not from someone else.

And yes, we really do not have any other indigenous words for it.




How did you go from the premise that we learn “greed” and “evil” to conclude that we learnt “everything”? we have indigenous words for most other basic things, like the example of “good” I mentioned earlier. So my ancestors did not learnt “every” basic concepts from your Chinese ancestors, but they did learnt some concepts like “greed” and “evil” from your ancestors, according to your reasoning.

FYI, we do have other word for greed, so the concept is not necessary from Buddhism, but that particular word 貪 has Buddhism association with it. The common usage of 貪 also is not religious but carry the usual meaning of greed.

Saying that Vietnam learn everything from China is obviously incorrect, my mistake. But the concept of greed seem like something so basic that it gave me that impression. That's all.

 

[JSCh]

Our Buddhism is Mahayana, spread to Viet Nam through China. Even if 貪 is originally a Buddhist concept, we still learnt it via China. The fact that we once used 貪 itself (Hanzi was once the written language) woyld mean that we borrowed that word from China and not from someone else.

And yes, we really do not have any other indigenous words for it.




How did you go from the premise that we learn “greed” and “evil” to conclude that we learnt “everything”? we have indigenous words for most other basic things, like the example of “good” I mentioned earlier. So my ancestors did not learnt “every” basic concepts from your Chinese ancestors, but they did learnt some concepts like “greed” and “evil” from your ancestors, according to your reasoning.

I think greed or covet/strife for materialistic gain/spiritual comfort is natural to all human. Therefore I think the behaviour associated with greed would have exist naturally. When society grow to a certain size, it would evolved to define such concept that could be taught in order to guard against or putting limit to greed. Confucius teaches moderation to guard against excesses including greed. And like I mentioned before greed is one of the seven deadly sin in Christianity. Since most ancient civilization has it, I would argue that those are concept that are important or even prerequisite for further advancement of society. Therefore I think at least for concept such as greed, it will be good for Vietnamese to learn it from Chinese.