China defense industry faces homemade engine troubles

[tanlixiang28776]

Wrong !

On the contrary they have signed AL-31 engine deal with Russia in June this year only :

China Signs $500 Million Russian Jet Engine Deal, Vedomosti Says - Bloomberg

Those AL 31 FN are spares for the J 10s

 

[Chinese Century]

Those AL 31 FN are spares for the J 10s

lol u owned that guy.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

There are 2 planes in China's inventory that uses foreign engines.

The J 10, and the SU 27/SU 30s China bought from Russia. The J 11B has WS 10As since 2009 and the J 15 also has a naval variant of the WS 10. The J 20 uses a WS series engine for the flight prototype.

The 117S with its 142 Kn of thrust is barely more than the WS 10A with 132 Kn. The WS 15 is what will power the J 20 and its prototype already achieves 165 KN with a goal of 180Kn

 

[somebozo]

The other side of building aircraft engines is access to sophisticated metallurgy techniques and exotic alloys.
Both fo which china lacks not due to technological drawback but due to international sanctions.
Take the sanctions away and one shall see China soar really high.

 

[Pakchina]

China defense industry faces homemade engine troubles​

SINGAPORE -- China can send a man into space and a rocket into lunar orbit but, paradoxically, its defense industry cannot build a top-end aircraft engine. Or an engine sophisticated enough to power advanced surface ships and armored vehicles.

But this broad statement requires a caveat: China's defense industry can indeed design, develop and produce propulsion systems for relatively simple military platforms — certain transport aircraft, patrol boats, some types of main battle tanks and armored personnel carriers. But high-performance combat aircraft, destroyers and similarly demanding platforms are another matter.

Only submarines appear an exception to this general rule. Most new types are fitted with locally developed propulsion systems, although the technology's origins are not known.

This technical shortcoming was most recently highlighted in a report in the Russian newspaper Vedomosti stating that Beijing last month bought 123 AL-31FN turbofan engines from Russian manufacturer NPO Saturn. These cost over US$500 million. The order follows earlier tranches that since 2001 have totaled 930 engines.

The AL-31FN currently powers China's J-10 multirole fighter and J-11A/B air superiority fighter, as well as the J-15 carrier-based fighter which is under development. Russia's Klimov RD-93 engine is fitted on the Chinese JF-17 multirole fighter and FC-1 attack fighter. A French engine drives the Z-11 helicopter and an American one powers the civilian ARJ-21 jet airliner.

Indicative of this trend elsewhere in the People's Liberation Army, the navy's Song-class submarine has MTU diesel engines from Germany, while the Luhai-class destroyer has Ukrainian gas turbines and German diesels. Among ground forces, the ZBL-09 8x8 infantry combat vehicle is fitted with a Deutz engine from Germany and the Type 99 main battle tank has a locally produced power plant derived from German technology.

Just a handful of companies worldwide have truly mastered the engineering challenge of developing high-performance engines, and China's dependence on foreign suppliers is deeply problematic for Beijing. But a new report concludes that change may be imminent.

Gabe Collins and associate professor Andrew Erickson, in a comprehensive study published recently by specialist website China SignPost, focus on military jet power plants.

“The Chinese aerospace industry is driven by four strategic imperatives as it pursues the ability to manufacture large volumes of high-performance aircraft engines — parts dependence avoidance, Russian supply unwillingness, aircraft sales autonomy and poor Russian after-sales service,” the authors state.

They say that quality control remains spotty, resulting in problems with reliability, and key weak points include turbine blade production and process standardization. Beyond these issues, “(China) appears to remain limited with respect to components and systems design, integration and management ... and to making logistical and operational plans at the force level based on reliable estimates thereof.”


Progress is uneven but, the authors add, China's dominant aerospace conglomerate — the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), with 10 subsidiaries and 400,000 employees — has now placed a high priority on engine development and plans over the next five years to invest 10 billion yuan (US$1.5 billion) in jet engine research and development.

This is particularly significant because Russia looks to be an increasingly reluctant supplier, partly because of production pressures due to heightened domestic requirements, but also because of China's rising international sales competitiveness. Such reticence could seriously impede Beijing's push to upgrade its air force with J-10, J-11, J-15 and J-20 fighters — the last of these a fifth-generation fighter under development, with Moscow seemingly hesitant to provide the 117S engine it needs for sufficient power.

“We estimate that, based on current knowledge and assuming no major setbacks or loss of mission focus, China will need two to three years before it achieves comprehensive capabilities commensurate with the aggregate inputs in the jet engine sector and five to 10 years before it is able to consistently mass produce top-notch turbofan engines for a fifth-generation type fighter,” said the study.

“If China's engine-makers can attain the technical capability level that United States manufacturers had 20 years ago, it will be able to power its fourth-generation and fifth-generation aircraft with domestically made engines. These developments would be vital in cementing China as a formidable regional air power and deserve close attention from policymakers.”

Collins and Erickson characterize China's inability to domestically mass produce advanced jet engines of consistent quality as an enduring Achilles' heel in its military aerospace sector. And there are important strategic and commercial implications inherent in overcoming this problem.

Presumably, if more priorities arise, doing so through AVIC's new initiative may also provide lessons that could be applied to ground and naval platforms.

China defense industry faces homemade engine troubles - The China Post

Technological and military embargoes injustly imposed on China by Western powers are impediments for Chinese engine development. No country in the world can withstand such kind of embargoes and no country in the world can stand alone without knowledge sharing and cooperation. The US has developed such capacity in engine technology due to world wide cooperation, technological, R & D sharing and the US also attracts best engineers from all parts of the World. Same cannot be said in the case of China which is subject to the most stringent embargoes imposed by the US and the EU. Hats off and respect to China which despite the embargoes, has achieved enought breakthrough in technology to become a world superpower. Without embargoes on rocket launching-the US has imposed an embargo on China in such a way that no country can use a Chinese rocket to launch its satellite; on space technology-the US has barred China from participating in the international space programme; on engine technology-the US has even blocked the request from China to import helicopter engine in view of providing relief and aid to civilians in the aftermath of the Sichuan earthquake which had claimed the lives of 300,000 civilians including 80,000 children etc, China would certainly have been a top country in engine technology and innovation.

 

[cn_habs]

China started off in 1949 with nothing but a war-torn country whereas the Western powers were already making fighters and bombers in the early 20th century. If you look it that way, our technological progress is more than breathtaking.

 

[SpArK]

conclude the article in one sentence, China cant produce turbofan engine.

i know u spark, i know what u want to say, u say it by highlighting those sentences...

about j-20 fitted with what engine, no one knows, so i wont border u, please have a party spark, believe what u want to believe, and i request u dont border the Chinese poster here, let them also believe what they want to believe...

and dont try to convince them or me with posting such "informative" article... with speculations of how many years China need to achieve blah blah blah... if it referring specific turbofan engine production procedure, point out what exactly China lack in engine production chain, the article worth something. well, its not, the author sounds like a typical Russian or Indian "expert".

oink oink oink....

 

[houshanghai]

Wrong !

On the contrary they have signed AL-31 engine deal with Russia in June this year only :

China Signs $500 Million Russian Jet Engine Deal, Vedomosti Says - Bloomberg

you know that al31f ≠ al31fn???

china has stopped the import of al31f (j11)engine from russian now.

china have signed aL31fn(j10) engine deal with Russia this year

 

[rcrmj]

isnt this been posted by an indian member before? hunderds of JH-7s, J-11B and K-8 using domestic engines``so our problem now is to produce something like F-119 used on F-22```has india even mastered the know-how of Turbojet engine yet let alone Turbofan engine

 

[ao333]

India can produce turbofans that China cannot.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

India can produce turbofans that China cannot.

License produce AL 31s with less thrust than WS 10As. So what was it they could produce that we couldn't you troll?

 

[manojb]

No wonder india facing hyge challenge with kaveri engine.

 

[Akasa]

The problem with Chinese engines is not that the Chinese can't develop them. We've seen multiple indigenous projects in testing:
- WS-10
- WS-12
- WS-13
- WS-15

And we also see some engines in development:
- WS-18

However, the reason why there are so many "problems" (meaning, delays) in the Chinese engine industry is because of quality control and testing. The engines are not exactly of premium quality and thus faces many faults during its development. If the Chinese are able to hammer out the problems I have no doubt China's engine industry will skyrocket.

The best thing for them to do is to continue testing. Steady and slow wins the race.

 

[Akasa]

India can produce turbofans that China cannot.

Name some.

And don't say the "Kaveri", which is (1) still in development, and (2) produces a maximum thrust less than that of a WS-9 or WP-8.

 

[JingDong]

Name some.

And don't say the "Kaveri", which is (1) still in development, and (2) produces a maximum thrust less than that of a WS-9 or WP-8.

Maximum thrust have no meaning in itself.
The weight of the engine is equally important.

Perhaps you should look for thrust to weight.