What's new

China Can Sink American Ships Faster Than America Can Replace Them

beijingwalker

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
65,195
Reaction score
-55
Country
China
Location
China
China Can Sink American Ships Faster Than America Can Replace Them
Aerospace & Defense
Jun 21, 2020,08:00am EDT

During a long war with China, the U.S. Navy probably wouldn’t be able to work fast enough to fix or replace the ships the Chinese sank or damaged.

That’s not alarmism. Rather, it’s the cool conclusion of two rather boring studies by industrial and military groups in recent months.

After decades of government neglect, American shipyards barely can build and repair the ships the U.S. fleet already has, to say nothing of the additional ships it would need—quickly—to keep fighting a determined, high-tech foe with major industrial resources of its own.

Heart-rates surely spiked across Washington, D.C. on Wednesday when Paul McLeary, a reporter for Breaking Defense, got his hands on a draft report by U.S. Marine Corps commandant David Berger.

Berger, a major military reformer, has been studying the U.S. shipbuilding landscape as part of his wide-ranging effort to transform the Marine Corps into a lighter, more mobile force that can range across the Pacific Ocean, occupying small islands in order to fire long-range anti-ship missiles at Chinese vessels.

If the United States and China got into a serious, long-lasting fight, the American fleet would start to shrink as ships got sunk or damaged, Berger warned. The Chinese fleet on the other hand would be in a better position to make good its losses.

“Replacing ships lost in combat will be problematic, inasmuch as our industrial base has shrunk, while peer adversaries have expanded their shipbuilding capacity,” Berger wrote. “In an extended conflict, the United States will be on the losing end of a production race—reversing the advantage we had in World War II when we last fought a peer competitor.”

For all its import, Berger’s study isn’t revealing anything new. A January report from the Virginia-based National Defense Industrial Association stated essentially the same thing. America’s According to the NDIA, the U.S. shipbuilding industry has just enough capacity to cover a doubling of its workload. Any increase above 100-percent of its current work would exceed its capacity.

To put that into context, the industry’s current workload is the result of the roughly 10 new warships the Navy annually has ordered in recent years. In other words, the big shipyards the fleet counts on to assemble its major warships could, in a pinch, build around 20 new ships at a time instead of just 10.

That is to say, the Navy could, in theory and in a reasonable span of time, replace or repair just 10 ships. If Chinese forces sink more than those 10 American vessels, the overall U.S. fleet will begin to shrink.

How likely is the Chinese military to take out 10 American warships? In 2015, the California think-tank RAND gamed out war scenarios in the western Pacific. The think-tank estimated that a single barrage of around 50 DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missiles could take out a single American ship. China possesses hundreds of DF-21Ds and other anti-ship ballistic missiles.

And don’t forget China’s fleet of around 70 submarines. RAND estimated that, by 2017, China’s subs combined would get around four torpedo or missile shots per week at any American aircraft carrier sailing in the western Pacific.

Add up those risks and others, and it’s not hard to see how, over the course of weeks or months, the Chinese navy could inflict serious damage on the U.S. Navy—damage that could result in a major industrial mobilization in the United States. The question is just how quickly, and to what extent, American shipyards could expand to replace losses.

960x0.jpg


To be clear, industrial capacity and wartime force-projection are complex subjects that defy easy explanation in short surveys. And there are additional factors in the Navy’s ability to replace losses, such as the large number of recently-decommissioned warships that the fleet keeps in reserve and which, in an emergency, could recommission for front-line service.

But it’s hard to dispute that, for a major maritime power, the United States in 2020 lacks adequate shipbuilding infrastructure. As recently as the late-1970s, the U.S. shipbuilding industry was thriving, thanks in large part to subsidies and financing guarantees that were part of Pres. Richard Nixon’s economic and military platforms. There were, at the time, 22 large shipyards in the United States.

Pres. Ronald Reagan withdrew the subsidies and guarantees in the early 1980s. “The shipbuilding industry in the United States collapsed and, in the five years that followed, employment fell by a third and the number of active shipyards was reduced by 40 percent,” Tim Colton and LaVar Huntzinger explained in a 2002 report for the Center for Naval Analyses in Virginia.

The industry further shrank following the end of the Cold War and the subsequent decline in U.S. defense spending. Meanwhile, countries willing to heavily subsidize their shipbuilding industries—Japan, South Korea and China—came to dominate the international market for large commercial vessels. America’s own shipyards soon were building only military ships and smaller commercial vessels.

Today 14 companies build ships of any size for the Navy, Coast Guard and other government agencies. Ten of those companies also build commercial vessels. Just six shipyards—five of them belonging to either General Dynamics GD or Huntington Ingalls Industries—construct large warships. Every year on average, the Navy doles out to each of this big yards contracts for one or two new ships.

960x0.jpg

Those same yards, plus four yards the Navy itself owns, also repair existing ships. But those repairs almost never finish on time, further underscoring the industry’s limited spare capacity. One ship maintenance center the U.S. Government Accountability Office studied in early 2020 was only able to complete three out of 24 ship-repairs on schedule.

China apparently does not have the same capacity problem. After a decade of explosive growth starting in the early 2000s, the Chinese shipbuilding industry now includes nearly 50 major shipyards, 12 of them belonging to the two major state-owned enterprises, China State Shipbuilding Corporation and China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation.

China’s naval buildup has both benefited and benefited from the industrial expansion. The Chinese fleet grew by half between 2005 and 2019 while the U.S. fleet expanded by around 10 percent.

Today the United States and China operate roughly the same number of warships—300—although the Chinese ships typically are smaller and less heavily-armed than their American counterparts are. The U.S. fleet can deploy with around 12,000 large missiles. Chinese ships in total can carry 5,200 equivalent munitions.

But the industry that supports the Chinese fleet is newer, bigger and potentially more capable of fixing and replacing combat-damaged ships than is the industry behind the American fleet.

So if the United States and China get into a major war, the Chinese could win by steadily chipping away at America’s own front-line naval strength while more easily making good its own losses.

In the naval-war numbers game, the United States loses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...r-than-america-can-replace-them/#d3c54806b45c
 
. .
In the long run, long war of attrition depends on a country's overall industrial and manufacturing capacity, US and Soviet Union can eventually beat Germany basically because they both can out produce Germany.
 
.
China is taking a wrong panga here, sure china has developed a lot of military tech (mostly with the help of russia), but even russia is still miles above chinese military tech, china wouldn't even come second or even third, USA is a millennium ahead of chinese tech or any other country, it would roast china badly if economic factors are not taken into consideration

China can bully india but it doesnt mean it starts bullying USA, which is too premature

the rest of the world is still following catch on with USA military tech.

regards

China is taking a wrong panga here, sure china has developed a lot of military tech (mostly with the help of russia), but even russia is still miles above chinese military tech, china wouldn't even come second or even third, USA is a millennium ahead of chinese tech or any other country, it would roast china badly if economic factors are not taken into consideration

China can bully india but it doesnt mean it starts bullying USA, which is too premature

the rest of the world is still following catch on with USA military tech.

regards
 
.
China is taking a wrong panga here, sure china has developed a lot of military tech (mostly with the help of russia), but even russia is still miles above chinese military tech, china wouldn't even come second or even third, USA is a millennium ahead of chinese tech or any other country, it would roast china badly if economic factors are not taken into consideration

China can bully india but it doesnt mean it starts bullying USA, which is too premature

the rest of the world is still following catch on with USA military tech.

regards

China is taking a wrong panga here, sure china has developed a lot of military tech (mostly with the help of russia), but even russia is still miles above chinese military tech, china wouldn't even come second or even third, USA is a millennium ahead of chinese tech or any other country, it would roast china badly if economic factors are not taken into consideration

China can bully india but it doesnt mean it starts bullying USA, which is too premature

the rest of the world is still following catch on with USA military tech.

regards
China directly and indirectly engaged in 2 wars with US, one was in Korea , one was in Vietnam, US won neither of them, and today's China was no longer that super poor and weak nation with no industrial power to start with half a century ago.
 
.
russia is still miles above chinese military tech, china wouldn't even come second or even third, USA is a millennium ahead of chinese tech or any other country, it would roast china badly if economic factors are not taken into consideration
regards

Can you explain how china is miles behind russia? (how have you measured it?)

How is US millennium ahead of chinese tech? please enlighten us on this as well.

On economy, i would like to ask you what does US have except the dollar, that it can roast china with.
 
. .
Through this Covid-19 crisis we can clearly see that China can quickly mobilise all the available human, financial and material resources of the country to achieve one goal, one object or purpose without any internal resistance. US can't. It's an deciding edge for winning a war or a crisis like Covid-19.

US is literally completely defeated by this Covid-19, the whole country plunged into chao, everything is running out, even toilet paper is hard to come by, it shows how vulnerable US is when facing a crisis, this virus called US bluff and stripped it naked for the world to see.
 
.
China must recognize that the coming war, will be a war of attrition. It will be a nuclear war and it will destroy most if not all, military hardware and facilities. Perhaps China maybe aware, or not, but the Zionist States of America has taken this into account and built subterranean (air, ground and maritime) facilities in order to be able to fight and dominate a post nuclear war world. China must also recognize that it's closest allies in a pre and post nuclear war world, will always be Russia and Pakistan. No other country will be able to withstand and continue the fight against the Zionist Power, post nuclear war to challenge and defeat the Zionists, other than Russia and Pakistan.

It is imperative for China to forge deep and comprehensive ties with both countries. The time ahead is fraught with unimaginable challenges and what appears to be, isn't what really is. Remember that!
 
.
China must recognize that the coming war, will be a war of attrition. It will be a nuclear war and it will destroy most if not all, military hardware and facilities. Perhaps China maybe aware, or not, but the Zionist States of America has taken this into account and built subterranean (air, ground and maritime) facilities in order to be able to fight and dominate a post nuclear war world. China must also recognize that it's closest allies in a pre and post nuclear war world, will always be Russia and Pakistan. No other country will be able to withstand and continue the fight against the Zionist Power, post nuclear war to challenge and defeat the Zionists, other than Russia and Pakistan.

It is imperative for China to forge deep and comprehensive ties with both countries. The time ahead is fraught with unimaginable challenges and what appears to be, isn't what really is. Remember that!
USSR lost the cold war because it wasted most resources on defence only while US dominated in trade, major industries and manufacturing, in the end USSR can no longer sustain itself, today's US is pretty much like yesterday's USSR.
 
. .
USSR lost the cold war because it wasted most resources on defence only while US dominated in trade, major industries and manufacturing, in the end USSR can no longer sustain itself, today's US is pretty much like yesterday's USSR.

nope, communistic economy does not work. In communism a doctor should earn just as much a laborer which then takes the incentives of a doctor to be doctor. That was the problem with USSR. And their economy did not grew in relation to their defense spending. Even China started prospering when it introduce some capitalistic tendencies with their communistic structure.

US today still today have the biggest economy but most of all has stayed consistent with their defense spending as a percentage of gdp. Right now US spends 3% of gdp on its defense. China spends 2%,As long as that percentage is under 5% . It’s deemed bearable

Soviet’s were spending close to 20% which is very very volatile
 
.
China Can Sink American Ships Faster Than America Can Replace Them
Aerospace & Defense
Jun 21, 2020,08:00am EDT

During a long war with China, the U.S. Navy probably wouldn’t be able to work fast enough to fix or replace the ships the Chinese sank or damaged.

That’s not alarmism. Rather, it’s the cool conclusion of two rather boring studies by industrial and military groups in recent months.

After decades of government neglect, American shipyards barely can build and repair the ships the U.S. fleet already has, to say nothing of the additional ships it would need—quickly—to keep fighting a determined, high-tech foe with major industrial resources of its own.

Heart-rates surely spiked across Washington, D.C. on Wednesday when Paul McLeary, a reporter for Breaking Defense, got his hands on a draft report by U.S. Marine Corps commandant David Berger.

Berger, a major military reformer, has been studying the U.S. shipbuilding landscape as part of his wide-ranging effort to transform the Marine Corps into a lighter, more mobile force that can range across the Pacific Ocean, occupying small islands in order to fire long-range anti-ship missiles at Chinese vessels.

If the United States and China got into a serious, long-lasting fight, the American fleet would start to shrink as ships got sunk or damaged, Berger warned. The Chinese fleet on the other hand would be in a better position to make good its losses.

“Replacing ships lost in combat will be problematic, inasmuch as our industrial base has shrunk, while peer adversaries have expanded their shipbuilding capacity,” Berger wrote. “In an extended conflict, the United States will be on the losing end of a production race—reversing the advantage we had in World War II when we last fought a peer competitor.”

For all its import, Berger’s study isn’t revealing anything new. A January report from the Virginia-based National Defense Industrial Association stated essentially the same thing. America’s According to the NDIA, the U.S. shipbuilding industry has just enough capacity to cover a doubling of its workload. Any increase above 100-percent of its current work would exceed its capacity.

To put that into context, the industry’s current workload is the result of the roughly 10 new warships the Navy annually has ordered in recent years. In other words, the big shipyards the fleet counts on to assemble its major warships could, in a pinch, build around 20 new ships at a time instead of just 10.

That is to say, the Navy could, in theory and in a reasonable span of time, replace or repair just 10 ships. If Chinese forces sink more than those 10 American vessels, the overall U.S. fleet will begin to shrink.

How likely is the Chinese military to take out 10 American warships? In 2015, the California think-tank RAND gamed out war scenarios in the western Pacific. The think-tank estimated that a single barrage of around 50 DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missiles could take out a single American ship. China possesses hundreds of DF-21Ds and other anti-ship ballistic missiles.

And don’t forget China’s fleet of around 70 submarines. RAND estimated that, by 2017, China’s subs combined would get around four torpedo or missile shots per week at any American aircraft carrier sailing in the western Pacific.

Add up those risks and others, and it’s not hard to see how, over the course of weeks or months, the Chinese navy could inflict serious damage on the U.S. Navy—damage that could result in a major industrial mobilization in the United States. The question is just how quickly, and to what extent, American shipyards could expand to replace losses.

960x0.jpg


To be clear, industrial capacity and wartime force-projection are complex subjects that defy easy explanation in short surveys. And there are additional factors in the Navy’s ability to replace losses, such as the large number of recently-decommissioned warships that the fleet keeps in reserve and which, in an emergency, could recommission for front-line service.

But it’s hard to dispute that, for a major maritime power, the United States in 2020 lacks adequate shipbuilding infrastructure. As recently as the late-1970s, the U.S. shipbuilding industry was thriving, thanks in large part to subsidies and financing guarantees that were part of Pres. Richard Nixon’s economic and military platforms. There were, at the time, 22 large shipyards in the United States.

Pres. Ronald Reagan withdrew the subsidies and guarantees in the early 1980s. “The shipbuilding industry in the United States collapsed and, in the five years that followed, employment fell by a third and the number of active shipyards was reduced by 40 percent,” Tim Colton and LaVar Huntzinger explained in a 2002 report for the Center for Naval Analyses in Virginia.

The industry further shrank following the end of the Cold War and the subsequent decline in U.S. defense spending. Meanwhile, countries willing to heavily subsidize their shipbuilding industries—Japan, South Korea and China—came to dominate the international market for large commercial vessels. America’s own shipyards soon were building only military ships and smaller commercial vessels.

Today 14 companies build ships of any size for the Navy, Coast Guard and other government agencies. Ten of those companies also build commercial vessels. Just six shipyards—five of them belonging to either General Dynamics GD or Huntington Ingalls Industries—construct large warships. Every year on average, the Navy doles out to each of this big yards contracts for one or two new ships.

960x0.jpg

Those same yards, plus four yards the Navy itself owns, also repair existing ships. But those repairs almost never finish on time, further underscoring the industry’s limited spare capacity. One ship maintenance center the U.S. Government Accountability Office studied in early 2020 was only able to complete three out of 24 ship-repairs on schedule.

China apparently does not have the same capacity problem. After a decade of explosive growth starting in the early 2000s, the Chinese shipbuilding industry now includes nearly 50 major shipyards, 12 of them belonging to the two major state-owned enterprises, China State Shipbuilding Corporation and China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation.

China’s naval buildup has both benefited and benefited from the industrial expansion. The Chinese fleet grew by half between 2005 and 2019 while the U.S. fleet expanded by around 10 percent.

Today the United States and China operate roughly the same number of warships—300—although the Chinese ships typically are smaller and less heavily-armed than their American counterparts are. The U.S. fleet can deploy with around 12,000 large missiles. Chinese ships in total can carry 5,200 equivalent munitions.

But the industry that supports the Chinese fleet is newer, bigger and potentially more capable of fixing and replacing combat-damaged ships than is the industry behind the American fleet.

So if the United States and China get into a major war, the Chinese could win by steadily chipping away at America’s own front-line naval strength while more easily making good its own losses.

In the naval-war numbers game, the United States loses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...r-than-america-can-replace-them/#d3c54806b45c


I agree USA Zumwalt-class destroyer is too expensive to repair and it had many mechanical troubles in the past.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/n...yer-in-navy-history-breaks-down/291-355002155
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/uss-zumwalt-trial_n_56f19e6ce4b03a640a6c0508

The industry further shrank following the end of the Cold War and the subsequent decline in U.S. defense spending.

If this is true than what about that might $750 dollar worth of defense budget, if they can't spend it isn't this considered a hoax in modern times when your adversary is shouting too loud to have something that could frightened you? After all USA forces heavily rely on their Navy, if much of that spending is not happening here than where is that all money headed to?
 
.
I agree USA Zumwalt-class destroyer is too expensive to repair and it had many mechanical troubles in the past.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/n...yer-in-navy-history-breaks-down/291-355002155
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/uss-zumwalt-trial_n_56f19e6ce4b03a640a6c0508



If this is true than what about that might $750 dollar worth of defense budget, if they can't spend it isn't this considered a hoax in modern times when your adversary is shouting too loud to have something that could frightened you? After all USA forces heavily rely on their Navy, if much of that spending is not happening here than where is that all money headed to?

these “man who cried wolf” articles have been a pinnacle of pentagon to scare the congress into giving them more money. I remember in 2004 USAF purposely lost to India in red eagle when Congress wasn’t giving approval for F-22 and said US doesn’t need that aircraft and then pentagon told them see how desperately we need to upgrade our Air Force . After that congress readily approved F-22.

I reckon they’re doing it to get money to install laser weapons on NAVY which is the new toy they and Lockheed have been dabbling with

Afterall the navy’s budget alone is twice than that of China’s entire military budget
 
.
I remember in 2004 USAF purposely lost to India in red eagle whe
when was that happened? Can you share some reference to that please? Was it really India? Or were you refering to The Hainan Island incident occurred on April 1, 2001?

or were probably referring to some of the mutual military exercises?
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom