China Bars Purchases of Micron Chips in Escalation of US Clash

大汉奸柳传志 · May 23, 2023

RandyB said:
Chinese companies will also bear a cost for not being able to buy their first choice product

hard to imagine Micron product being the first choice for anyone.

gambit said:
Sure. Micron is more than willing to go to court

no it won't, judging by the response, Micron seems happy to be getting just a slap on the wrist.

zectech · May 23, 2023

Had the chips act had Kingston RAM build the largest manufacturing development project in New York state history, then China would have found a problem with Kingston memory.

It is generally agreed this has to do with the USA getting national independence in computer components. Processors. Memory. So china is retaliating.

So this problem is on the Chinese end. Dangerous security issues that affect those parts China sees as a threat.

Maybe everything from China is a threat. From assembly to production.

And need to end china as a manufacturing hub. It is too dangerous to allow china to be the main global supplier of goods.

China for decades used Micron memory for national security. Then chips act. Then CCP retaliation against Micron for chips act.

Nations that partner with Putin or Trump have more than a security risk. Gut china of manufacturing.

Zsari · May 23, 2023

RandyB said:
Sure, they will. They will probably switch to Samsung and Hynix, though the US government has already been lobbying to prevent that. At the end of the day, Chinese companies were not buying Micron products because they owed them a favour, but because they found them to be the best value for money. Chinese companies will also bear a cost for not being able to buy their first choice product, though there are close substitutes available - which is why the Chinese government targetted Micron and not Nvidia,some of whose chips would have been more difficult to substitute. Ultimately, demand and supply will gravitate towards equilibrium. If Micron chips cant be sold in China, they will find a market in some other country.

Anyway, since the Chinese government has still not announced the list of banned buyers and products , forget about what the security risk was, it is too early to speculate on the impact.

Micron's market share in China is in the teens, so replacing that volume isn't difficult. Also let me give you another reason to target Micron as Micron has been spending millions lobbying Washington to blacklist Chinese competitors, Nividia didn't do such a thing, nor did Intel or AMD. Finally, equilibrium only works where resources are finite, whereas in the case of Micron, other companies will expand production and pickup its market share. I see YMTC would be a big winner.

nahtanbob · May 23, 2023

JSCh said:
This is what Micron put out publicly: "We have received the CAC’s notice following its review of Micron products sold in China. We are evaluating the CAC’s conclusion and assessing our next steps. We look forward to continuing to engage in discussions with Chinese authorities.”

Seem Micron say "continuing to engage", that to me means that Micron knows what the Chinese objection are, and it is currently not putting out an outright deny/defence of wrong doing publicly.

Maybe Micron should take this to court, and let China present the evidence in court? That way everybody would know what the security problem is. But that seem not likely given Micron response.

courts in china

Zsari · May 23, 2023

zectech said:
It is generally agreed this has to do with the USA getting national independence in computer components. Processors. Memory. So china is retaliating.

You answered your own question, as China also needs to get national independence in computer components. So why the problem is with China? To have supply chain dependent on US company is a risk to national security exactly as how the US sees it as well.

zectech · May 24, 2023

Zsari said:
You answered your own question, as China also needs to get national independence in computer components. So why the problem is with China? To have supply chain dependent on US company is a risk to national security exactly as how the US sees it as well.

Can't you Chinese do something productive and get the Latin American mines to be nationalized by their respective countries. Have China take over the mining with management, equipment and logistics. Have the Latin Americans either refine the ore there or ship it to China. China can stockpile thousands of tonnes of silver a year. And Americans would chimp out as China controls over 50% of the global supply of silver. And much of the copper production. Though China wasted their geopolitical standing with supporting Putin.

If China instead of supporting Putin, used their soft power to do this with Latin American mining, China would have succeeded. China wasted their position with Europe and much of the globe with Putin zero brain cell nonsense of MAGA and Trumpism.

Do something useful. With Trump you could not get away with this. With Biden, you would lose your trade franchise. Though it would still be worth it. That is how important Latin American silver is to Washington. And how unimportant Micron is to the USA. You believe MAGA and Washington care about Micron. lol. MAGA is pissed the project went to a Democratic state. When the news was released, the entire south was jealous that a northern city was being benefited. Because the Southern MAGA hate Northerners. So yet again...China at bat, swings and misses. Swing and miss with Putin, since Putin is MAGA. Swing and miss with Micron, since MAGA Southerners want Micron deal to crash and burn.

China is not fighting MAGA. China is helping MAGA.

If Micron went to South Carolina (not NY), I would be wanting China to ban Micron from their entire supply chain. That would be grab the popcorn and watch MAGA cry. China does not make MAGA cry, China supports the MAGA agenda. Over and over again. China is a fraud.

My ideas would end the US deepstate influence over the globe within 2-3 months. MAGA is destroyed. Washington criminals are destroyed. Which is why for each of my ideas, I am aware Washington would completely chimp out. Chinas ideas... and MAGA laughs. You Chinese are total frauds. MAGA are total frauds "fighting the deepstate" when the MAGA are the Republican cia deepstate. MAGA are jokes. China is a joke.

gambit · May 24, 2023

大汉奸柳传志 said:
hard to imagine Micron product being the first choice for anyone.

As if you guys know WTF you are talking about this in the first place. :lol:

大汉奸柳传志 said:
no it won't, judging by the response, Micron seems happy to be getting just a slap on the wrist.

If this does not go to court, it means China backed down. Whether China keep the ban or not, is not the point. Micron can simply say 'Sure' and laughs back to whatever the company was doing. But Micron would have no problems going to court with this.

JSCh · May 24, 2023

Seem some forgotten what has happen last year,

First,

Apple to Buy 3D NAND Memory from Chinese YMTC

Yangtze Memory to supply 3D NAND to Apple.

www.tomshardware.com

and then,

https://chinatechthreat.com/chinas-army-to-infiltrate-iphones-with-ymtc-chips/

https://twitter.com/x/status/1509965066375864324

and then,

U.S. adds China's YMTC and 30 other firms to 'unverified' trade list

The United States on Friday added China's top memory chipmaker YMTC and 30 other Chinese entities to a list of companies that U.S. officials have been unable to inspect, ratcheting up tensions with Beijing and starting a 60 day-clock that could trigger much tougher penalties.

www.reuters.com

...

Apple stops plans to use YMTC storage chips: report · TechNode

Apple has paused its plans to use storage chips from Chinese supplier YMTC due to geopolitical pressure and criticism from US policymakers.

technode.com

and finally,

US adds 36 Chinese entities into Entity List, including YMTC

The US Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) added 36 entities to the Entity List, including China's largest memory manufacturer, Yangtze Memory Technology Corp (YMTC). The stringent license requirements that will severely restrict these entities' access to commodities...

www.digitimes.com

zectech · May 24, 2023

JSCh said:
Seem some forgotten what has happen last year,

First,

Apple to Buy 3D NAND Memory from Chinese YMTC

Yangtze Memory to supply 3D NAND to Apple.

www.tomshardware.com

and then,

https://chinatechthreat.com/chinas-army-to-infiltrate-iphones-with-ymtc-chips/

https://twitter.com/x/status/1509965066375864324
and then,

U.S. adds China's YMTC and 30 other firms to 'unverified' trade list

The United States on Friday added China's top memory chipmaker YMTC and 30 other Chinese entities to a list of companies that U.S. officials have been unable to inspect, ratcheting up tensions with Beijing and starting a 60 day-clock that could trigger much tougher penalties.

www.reuters.com

...

Apple stops plans to use YMTC storage chips: report · TechNode

Apple has paused its plans to use storage chips from Chinese supplier YMTC due to geopolitical pressure and criticism from US policymakers.

technode.com

and finally,

US adds 36 Chinese entities into Entity List, including YMTC

The US Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) added 36 entities to the Entity List, including China's largest memory manufacturer, Yangtze Memory Technology Corp (YMTC). The stringent license requirements that will severely restrict these entities' access to commodities...

www.digitimes.com

This is irrelevant as a reason to ban Micron. Why not target Kingston or another memory maker. MAGA and Trump are with you China. MAGA wants the chips act to fail to have the "Let's Go Brandon" losers defeat Biden. Biden is going to run against Trump again. And China is scoring points for MAGA. Going after a memory chip maker that MAGA want the project scrapped because Joe Biden did it and the project went to a Northern Liberal Democratic state is sheer stupidity. I can write the Trump TV commercial showing weakness of Joe Biden that China is banning chips act manufacturer and if Trump was in the white house, Trump would have responded to make them give up on their ban. Does Chinese have any political acumen. China has zilch.

Biden is controlled opposition to piss you off. So you want Trump. If you don't know the purpose of the Democratic Party 101, then you are at a disadvantage.

Trump had a trade war with Europe. To say China was the only victim is a lie.

China is siding with MAGA again and again. China is doing drive bys in retaliation and not knowing the side China wants to weaken is cheering for China's stupidity.

Though China's soft power is long gone, used up on Putin's war on Europe. China is an irrelevant nation, giving irrelevant reasons for their stupid actions.

China has the snowflakiest of feelings. Because Washington offends China, China does the exact thing Washington expects of China. Same with MAGA. Washington, Hollywood, and Wall Street throw enough drag queens in the faces of MAGA, and are triggered to vote Republican, because MAGA has snowflake feelings, easily manipulated. Chinese are as easily triggered as playing a violin.

Literally China can take down the dollar empire, defeat cia bitcoins with the nationalisation of Latin American mining for the Latin American countries - there are 4 socialist leaning nations that mine silver in Latin America. Have China run the mines and China be the market for over half of the silver mined around the globe. Yet, China has no more soft power to do such a thing.

There is big boy stuff going on. and China is crying wanting revenge and doing the exact thing Washington expects China to do. Children are not this stupid. if China is unable to reason, you move on and realize China is a danger to itself and to neighbors. Not shocking many expect China to invade Taiwan.

JSCh · May 24, 2023

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661220656321576960

Seem Nvidia chief is spooked.

The Taiwanese-American executive warned US lawmakers to be “thoughtful” about imposing further rules restricting trade with China.

“If we are deprived of the Chinese market, we don’t have a contingency for that. There is no other China, there is only one China,” Huang said, adding that there would be “enormous damage to American companies” if they were unable to trade with Beijing.

“If [China] can’t buy from . . . the United States, they’ll just build it themselves,” he said. “So the US has to be careful. China is a very important market for the technology industry.”

Well, the Micron warning shot by Beijing is not US depriving them from China market, it is the Chinese gov't that is doing it. In another word, the US enterprise is taking one two punch from both US and Chinese gov't. No suprise when you let politician make this sort of market disturbing decision.

gambit · May 24, 2023

zectech said:
...China to ban Micron from their entire supply chain.

China is a joke.

What these yay-hoos making these threads and posting ignorant comments do not know is that there are two types of markets for Micron's products, rather, we should say the kind of products that Micron, Samsung, or Hynix makes -- commoditized semicon. Products that everyone makes, just slightly different methods from each other.

The first market type is the contract market. This is where Micron (or Samsung or Hynix) deals directly and openly with clients, such as Apple or NASA. A contract is at least one yr but if there is an established relationship between the two sides, usually 2-3 yrs.

The second market type is 'spot' market. This is where Micron (or Samsung or Hynix) sells non-contracted products almost like an auction to anyone, and the highest bidder take the batch. Non-contracted products do not always exists and they are a mix of 'prime' and lower grades products. Most of the time, what is called 'prime' products are usually taken up by contracts to what is called 'Tier One' customers such as Apple or NASA. Lower grades products are still functional products but they required some 'rework' during the manufacturing processes.

Here is one example of many many many spot market access...

DRAMeXchange - World leading DRAM and NAND Flash market research firm, with more than a decade of most authoritative database

DRAM, NAND Flash, SSD, Module and Memory card, and provides market research on spot and contract prices, daily news, market views and reports, and monthly datasheets of semiconductor industry.集邦科技

www.dramexchange.com

China can ban the sale of Micron products as DIRECTLY sold by Micron via contracts, as in FUTURE contracts. Current contracts are still good. But it will be nearly impossible for China to prevent Micron's products from entering the Chinese electronics ecosystem via the spot market. If a Chinese company want a particular Micron product bad enough, as in over other domestic suppliers, that Chinese company WILL go to the spot market via proxies. The proxy will buy that whatever and kinda sorta 're-sell' that particular Micron product to that Chinese company.

This sort of INDIRECT buying of semicon products happens daily. Spot markets prices are %99.999 of the time higher than contracted prices. Micron (or Samsung or Hynix) do not care who buys on the spot market. They just want to empty their inventories and the Chinese market will get them. Simple as that. :enjoy:

大汉奸柳传志 · May 24, 2023

gambit said:
As if you guys know WTF you are talking about this in the first place.

your bias towards Micron, almost to the level of fanboyism.

gambit said:
If this does not go to court, it means China backed down. Whether China keep the ban or not, is not the point. Micron can simply say 'Sure' and laughs back to whatever the company was doing. But Micron would have no problems going to court with this.

Micron will face much more severe punishment if it fights back, which could include a total ban on import/sales and a substantial fine

Hack-Hook · May 25, 2023

gambit said:
So call the truth -- that Micron's shit is great stuff but we just want to retaliate.

But China know better so the technical facade was erected -- national security risks.

not great , but OK.
its age that South East Asian stuff are better

gambit said:
Micron DRAM NAND products somehow are technically risky, but SMIC YMTC products that uses the same processeses somehow is not technically risky. This is another case of 'Chinese physics'.

just like Huawei and Cisco devices

Hack-Hook · May 25, 2023

RandyB said:
China’s New Chip Ban on Micron Puts South Korea in a Delicate Spot https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas...-puts-south-korea-in-a-delicate-spot-21ce5259

So, Samsung and Hynix have a one year exemption from US semiconductor restrictions on China. If they step in to replace Micron in China, the US adminstration does have the lever to not extend the exemption - which will leave the Korean chips makers the option of choosing between the Chinese and American markets.

as American equipment are actually made in china the logical step would be to choose china otherwise they will have problem providing for USA market without shipping the chips to china first

Hack-Hook · May 25, 2023

gambit said:
Micron do not make appliances but memory components FOR appliances. Big technical difference and one that not even a Chinese semicon engineer will risk reputational dishonor and international mockery in trying to indict Micron at the technical level. Where are the PHYSICAL structures inside a Micron DRAM/NAND memory cell that does not exist in any Chinese semicon product that can collect data and transmit to the US government? There are none and China knows it.

the problem can be in controller they use for those nands and DRams .
that controller can be programmed to do many things while as you said its nearly impossible to do these type of activities with nands and drams themselves while those components are pretty much standard you can do many things with those controllers.
for example at its basic design something like stuxnet to access them or design some secret interrrupts ionside them to access them remotely and read data stored in those nands and drams

gambit said:
That is hilarious. Let?

Micron is somehow preventing the Chinese government from presenting evidences OUTSIDE the legal and public realms? I have no idea the company is that powerful. More like the Chinese GOOBERMINT if Micron is that powerful.

exactly as how powerful Huawei prevented usa government present its evidence anyplace but behind closed doors

China Bars Purchases of Micron Chips in Escalation of US Clash

China fails Micron's products in security review, bars some purchases​

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