Hero from our side. From Pakistani side a traitor I guess. Unless you are talking about Matiur Rahman Nizami.
Chill Bangladesh Thread
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Michael Corleone
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imo, he is traitor regardless... speaking of the airforce alone... i would much rather celebrate Saiful Azam as a hero
imagine we were wagin the war against west pakistan and Minhas tried to steal the plane... would he let Minhas defect to India?
Minhas is the real hero of that day... end of the day pakistan, good or bad... they pledge to follow the state irrespective of the order given to them... if the order strikes their moral compass... quit like a real man and fight like the rest did in Kilo flight
Arthur
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Why regardless? From his perspective he was simply following his personal moral leaning. And for people with such level of patriotism often could careless of what other will think of him 40-50 years down the lines.
Also Matiur's case isn't as simple as you think.
Matiur was arrested in March/April '71 from his native home by Pak authority & deported to west, while he was attempting to defect to India to join the liberation effort.
The real question should be why PAF high officials let such a person to fly that plane on that day?
Considering Matiur's political leaning it was only matter of time for defection. So why wasn't he under house arrest like all other Bengali officers of Pak army and such?
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Michael Corleone
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i say regardless because judging by his moral standards, it was pretty shitty thing to do for a military man, irrespective of allegiance
Matiur or any of the bengali officers weren't flight cleared during the war... all bengali officers were ground, the accounts is that Matiur forced himself in while Minhas was taxing to the runway and knocked him out... took off and flew low to avoid radar detection, but while 40 miles away from the indian border... Minhas gained back consciousness and used his controls to crash the plane... apparently he wasn;t strapped in and his body was found not too far from the aircraft... minhas's body was within it...
now here is an example of a miitary man the world celebrates
Rommel was thought to be a traitor by the Nazi govt and was given an option to commit suicide or risk military trials and dishonor of his family, because the nazis found his name involved with connections to coup against Hitler
where the fact of the matter is although he didn't agree with Hitler's policy, he wasn't involved or aware of coup attempts on Hitler... but the plotters plan to Name his as successor was enough to seal his fate...
The dude was clever enough to cut short the length of the war, the dude directly disobeyed hitler's orders and treated his prisoners right, which is a quality a good military man should possess which Matiur lacked.
other bengali members either quit the service, formally pledge allegiance and defected to join the armed struggle or didn't participate at all on either side because their moral compass didn't allow it...
like Saiful Azam... the hero we don't talk about
plus that's the way the prophet instructed us to fight
Arthur
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Did you even read your own post? You just answered your own question.
What 'shitty' thing? You do realise he too did change alligiance to BD and was trying to defect to join the liberation struggle? You sound like Pakistanis were just letting him go left & right wherever he wished to?
To officers like Matiur, ATM Haider, Zia, Osmani who joined the liberation war, Pakistanis were just enemies plundering their homeland. Now do we need to teach them how to fight such enemies?
Do you even know Zia killed his commanding officer before revolting? Do you think Col. Taher, Khaled Musharraf, ATM Haider, Major Jalil & all others would have thought twice if they needed to do the same?
Do you think Pakistanis would have just letten them go if they had the chance to kill them? Did Minhas thought twice before crashing the plane, even knowing it will kill him & his instructor?
Why should he to follow what others were doing? He wanted out of prison & join liberation war and he took the way that was open before him. Knowing full well that people will judge him in their own standards that isn't even coherent. Comparing Him with Rommel simply doesn't make sense.
To become a hero you need the courage to dive in when the calling comes. Both Matiur & Minhas are heros in their respective country. Why? They simply called their shot when the shot came calling.
That's why Saiful Azam is respected by both but hero of none.
Problem is you are judging someone by your personal moral standard. If we go by that narrative, Pakistanis are right. Tikka, Rao farman, Niazi were the heroes saving the day, while muktibahinI were just shitty thugs undermining the state. You see where this narrative leads to?
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Nilgiri
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I agree. It seemed underhanded way. Benedict Arnold is not seen as some patriot by British either....because what he did was also very underhanded (use the US uniform and friendship with George Washington even to secretly prepare for his switching sides). Both sides realised this in that instance (in post analysis and peace treaty)....I dont get why this pilot chap matiur is emotionally given such a hero status in BD.
Its best one openly states they are not under the uniform they wear anymore.
Michael Corleone
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oh god this is a long one... so i'll read line by line and reply
you don't change allegiance and for yourself into your enemies plane to take it to use against it.
infact again the germans did do this, they painted their fighters and tanks in enemy colors and this kind of actions are not something that's encouraged, atleast in the western world
we say he was arrested, but pakistani sources tell otherwise... he was missing for quite sometime involved in armed struggle within bd but later went back to pakistan himself... there were other pilots who were arrested in bd, none were send to pakistan, rather kept in bangladesh and tortured... so there is some truth to that
Zia, Osamani and others, unlike Matiur didn't wear the enemies uniform to fight from within, they were vocal about their views and took gentleman like decisions
well Zia already had revolt in mind like Matiur, but unlike matiur he didn't go back to pakistan to get equipments to use against the very idea up until that point that led them to join the military... pakistan was ours as much as the west... but the west ofc destroyed those ideals
we in bangladesh tend to fall into trap of demonizing pakistanis every chance we get... if they really wanted to kill off all bengali officers like you say, they would have done it discreetly like they did with the intelletuals
was not really willing to compare the men themselves... rommel and matiur but their actions
as for saiful not being hero of either...
well some bangladesh would say zia is a traitor because he had knowledge of sheikh mujib's assasination prior to it going down... to most of us he's still a hero but his actions will always be questionable
same goes with Matiur
as as for saiful, as per you he might not be a hero in bd... but no pakistani will call him a traitor for joining banglaesh air force post independence... he didn't deviate from his moral compass...
he didn;t take part for any side
and as the saying goes, Heros are remembered, but legends never die...
the whole world atleast those of us interested in military aviation, recognize his accomplishments so he doesn't even need be hero
one of my uncle was in pakistan army... he was deployed to bangladesh... at the time he was a junior officer and they were not told what's about to go down but that indians are sending in terrorist or something of that sort... but once he came to experience first hand what's going down... he deserted and fleed through india and into middle east...
he died in pakistan after he retired from the bank my dad works in... no one around him knew he was in the military except those in his family... to pakistanis eyes he would have been seen as a coward and traitor... and for mere relations with him and some other distant relatives... i might be seen as from the others... but the fact is... he did what was right.... that's not kill your own countrymen... be they from east or west... that's far noble imo
i wanted to discuss this topic not for argument or debates sake but just people's opinion on the matter.... i might not agree with your views but i do respect it
He did what he thought was the best/right thing to do, probably. He did it for us. He is our hero. If my allegiance was to Pakistan I would consider him a traitor.
Like Mujib is our hero, their traitor
Bhutto is our villain and their hero(not sure but they did elect him even after 1971; so yeah)
It's better not to think too much about moral dilemmas.
See it like that, a father stole food to feed his hungry son. He might not be an ethical person but he probably is a good father.
Michael Corleone
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Bhutto was hanged by his own people though lmao
Similar thing happened to Mujib...yet he's a hero to us.
People's party Pakistan still hold Bhutto in high regard. And they still gain votes talking about Bhutto's achievement.
Michael Corleone
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hmm... eh well dude got them nukes in exchange for eating grass... (in his words) good for them
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