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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

BEST OF LUCK TO J-20
I WISH CHINA MAY STOLEN EJ-200 FROM ANY EUROPEAN COUNTRY FOR THE BETTERMENT OF J-20


a bad idea,ej200 is a middle-class turbofan engine(ex.rd93, f404/414,m88,ws13).it is too small to j20
j20 need a F119-PW-100 or 117s high-class turbofan engine.
The answer is WS15 turbofan engine for j20
 
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Yeah...The evidences said despite a join date of 2009, I have only 80-something post count and ONE long discussion. But hey...Exaggerations and the lies, there and here, are the Chinese boys' stock in trade.

You joined in 2009 and BEHAVED NICELY like not jumping out at other people in a flash of emotional insecurity. Why would any one ban you if you didn't breech any rules during that time??? You getting banned had nothing to do with you posting a long discussion and every thing to do with you acting like a complete jerk, not following forum rules, and repeated ignoring and challenging MOD warnings!

Yeah continue with the Chinese boy generalization. You know what I found interesting Gambit??? Instead of calling us Communist boys, Commies, Socialist boys, or anything else you continuously refer to us as Chinese boys? This is clearly a case of racism and prejudice against a particular country. Why else would you suddenly lashed out against TyroneG despite the fact that he wasn't even Chinese. Always safe to make assumptions isn't it? Why don't you stop your antics and call us what you really wanted to call us all this time?

My only regret is giving Engineer infractions during the incident. The way he treated you was no better than the way you treated him.
 
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More on Gambit's "mod protection". All of your arguments and posts are still up there on display on sinodefence, for all to judge whereas our previous quarrel on the previous J-20 thread mysteriously disappeared (not just the arguments, the entire thread) in what I believe is an attempt to help Gambit save face. I am prepared for this thread to "disappear" overnight and/or get banned for saying those things. Forums go a long way to protect their "professionals", Lizyu being the case and point on CJDBY.
 
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This thread is no longer about the J-20.. but a hodgepodge of Vietnam-China issues and apparently personal history.
any post found by me here that does not discuss the J-20..AND ONLY THE J-20... will be considered trolling.
 
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You joined in 2009 and BEHAVED NICELY...
Good...Then we can call you a liar for saying that I 'mistreated everyone' over at your playground.

Moving on...

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Readers,

Recently some supposedly 'evidences' were presented to support the argument that we can be conclusive about the J-20's radar reflective properties. Said 'evidences' are in the form of physical optics measurement performed by an Australian group => Air Power Australia - Home Page <= APA does have some excellent articles with credible technical analysis worthy of being references themselves. But APA dropped the ball on this one...

What APA did was performed a physical optics (PO) simulation on the J-20 regarding its radar reflectivity. They DID NOT performed said measurements with established physical dimensions commonly known from profile views: top, bottom, front, and sides. In other words, any physical dimensions input into the simulation were of inferences from photographs. As if that was not bad enough, the photographic experience was out of their control. It is very feasible to have very accurate physical dimensions of any complex body from photographic experience. We do that regularly with satellite imagery. But the difference here is that we have ownership of said photographic experience and whenever we do not we made it clear to our audience, be it the public or the President himself, that because we did not have control of the photographic experience, the physical dimensions of said body should be taken with a large margin of error. In efffect, APA guessed what the J-20's physical dimensions could be and inserted them into a PO simulation. The computing adage 'Garbage in. Garbage out.' is very true and applicable here. APA could be as lucky as we have from satellite imagery and what they inferred are true. But hope is insufficient for any critical thinking person to accept as part of any declaration of any argument he is willing to stake his intellect upon and defend.

Here are the admitted flaws in APA's simulation of the J-20's radar reflectivity...

1- The simulator at this time does not model backscatter from edge diffraction effects, although the resulting error will be mitigated by the reality that in a mature production design these RCS contributions are reduced by edge treatments;

2- The simulator at this time does not model backscatter from surface travelling wave effects. In the forward and aft hemispheres these can be dominant scattering sources where specular contributions are low. The magnitude of these RCS contributions is reduced by edge treatments, lossy surface coatings, gap treatments, and panel serrations;

3- The simulator at this time does not model backscatter from the AESA bay in the passband of a bandpass radome, due to the absence of any data on the intended design of same, the resulting error will be mitigated by the reality that in a mature production design much effort will be expended in suppressing passband RCS contributions;

4- The simulator at this time does not model backscatter from the engine inlet tunnels or engine exhaust tailpipes, due to the absence of any data on the intended design of same. In the forward and aft hemispheres these can be dominant scattering sources where specular contributions are low. The magnitude of these RCS contributions is reduced by suppressing these RCS contributions with absorbers, and in the case of inlet tunnels, by introducing a serpentine geometry to increase the number of bounces;

5- The simulator at this time does not model structural mode RCS contributions from antenna and EO apertures, panel joins, panel and door gaps, fasteners and other minor contributors; although the resulting error will be mitigated by the reality that in a mature production design these RCS contributions are reduced by RCS reduction treatments.

All the highlighted items that APA's PO simulation did not collect data are what make a complex body electronically visible on a 'radar scope'...As illustrated below...

radar_return_mechs.jpg


In all five items, APA essentially hope or gamble that the J-20's manufacturer will successfully compensate. The J-20's supporters then gleefully leap over the APA statement that theirs is a 'Preliminary Assessment' and ignore the APA admitted 6 important shortcomings, five outlined above, and demand that everyone, including those who have relevant experience in the radar detection, to accept blindly that the J-20 has a conclusive RCS. It is possible that APA is correct. But that is not how critical thinking people work.

For the ignorant but curious and critical thinking lay person, those five points above would be enough to cast a healthy measure of doubt on APA's methodology. But the J-20's supporters would counter via the 'appeal to authority' argument by laying out the credentials of the simulation's author: Peter Goon => CV - Peter Goon - APA Co-founder . No offense to Mr. Goon, presumably a very nice man, but his curriculum vitae seems to involve more of test flights than of radar detection. For the ignorant but curious and critical thinking lay person, he is now being beaten over the head and hopefully into intellectual submission via Mr. Goon's credentials.

It is quite unfair to the lay readers to see paywalled sources from an advocate. For all we know, the advocate is being selective with his sources to deceive. But considering someone's credentials are being used as an 'appeal to authority' argument club, it is only reasonable that the lay readers have a shield so they can resume to exercise that which is critical for any thinking person: objectivity.

So here comes that shield...

In the radar community, there are very very very few personalities that has the technical gravitas as that of Merril Sknolnik or Eugene Knott. Their works are required reading. Combined, the pair alone have decades of technical knowledge, experience, accomplishments, and published works that set the standards in the community. Any engineer who claim to specialize in radar detection better have their most famous works on his/her bookshelf.

knott_rcs_predict_tech.jpg


Regarding the above, it is a 1985 summary/abstract of Knott's paper about the techniques used to predict and model a complex body under radar measurement. An abstract is usually written by a reviewer, rarely by the paper's author. In this paper, Knott outlined the strengths and weaknesses of the major methods and what he said about physical optics (PO), as the reviewer pointed out, is significant...

Physical optics does yield results in those cases. but fails by progressively wider margins as the scattering directions swings farther from the specular direction.

Thirty years later, we have this...

rcs_diffrac_mod.jpg


The readers should note that the paper's authors are: IRANIANS. Look who they referenced for their submission: E F Knott. And look at what the Iranians said about PO...

As is observed, PO give erroneous results at wide angles.

Physical Optics (PO) is a common EM analysis tool on which many efficient computer codes are based. Despite the method's efficiency in case of surface structures and in specular regions, it looses its significance when applied to objects having edges or discontinuities.

To their credit, APA did admitted the shortcomings of their analysis and did called it a 'Preliminary Assessment'. We should take it no more than that and based no assertions upon it. If we have a bias or being an advocate, then we should be intellectually honest enough to state that it is only our own opinions and not demand that others accept those opinions as gospel truth. Thirty years passed and the technique passed through countless hands but the conclusion is still the same: That Physical Optics (PO) is NOT the correct tool for a complex body and APA stated why in the 6th caveat...

6- The PO computational algorithm performs most accurately at broadside or near normal angles of incidence, with decreasing accuracy at increasingly shallow angles of incidence, reflecting the limitions of PO modelling. The simulator does not implement the Mitzner/Ufimtsev corrections for edge currents. While a number of test runs with basic shapes showed good agreement between the PO simulation and backscatter peaks in third party test sample measurements, even at incidence angles below 10°, characteristically PO will underestimate backscatter in nulls. This limitation must be considered when assessing results for the nose and tail aspects, where most specular RCS contributions arise at very shallow angles39.

That does not mean that APA is absolutely wrong but what it mean is that if an incorrect tool was used, or must be used because of some reasons, then an objective person should take a neutral stance and wait for when the target is available so we can impose the correct tool or correct combinations of tools to have a more honest analysis. This should have nothing to do with one's own wishes out of nationalistic pride. This is about common sense regardless of whether APA may be correct or incorrect.

Physical Optics (PO) is best for individual RCS contributors in a complex body. Not on the total assembly itself. If the Iranians recognized PO's limitations, odds are very good that Chinese engineers have as well. And they have Skolnik's and Knott's works -- real physics -- on their bookshelves.
 
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a bad idea,ej200 is a middle-class turbofan engine(ex.rd93, f404/414,m88,ws13).it is too small to j20
j20 need a F119-PW-100 or 117s high-class turbofan engine.
The answer is WS15 turbofan engine for j20

The 117S is just a 3.5th gen turbofan engine, not a true 4th gen turbofan engine like F-119.
 
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Gambit fails to understand the importance of Australia Air Power's "Physics Optics" simulation. They informed you that all of the potential errors are mitigated or reduced by a list of factors. He is making a mountain out of a molehill to try and discredit the J-20 Mighty Dragon's superlative design.

He is making the classical argument: "Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?" I'll trust my eyes over his misleading verbiage any day. Let's look at an example.

2- The simulator at this time does not model backscatter from surface travelling wave effects. In the forward and aft hemispheres these can be dominant scattering sources where specular contributions are low. The magnitude of these RCS contributions is reduced by edge treatments, lossy surface coatings, gap treatments, and panel serrations;

"Backscatter from surface travelling wave effects" sounds important, right? No. Mr. Goon told you that "edge treatments, lossy surface coatings, gap treatments, and panel serrations" can take care of the problem.

Your eyes have seen the saw-toothed "panel serrations" on the landing and weapon bay panels. Your eyes can see the "lossy surface coatings" or radar-absorbent material on the F-22 and J-20.

Your eyes can also see the gap treatments on the F-22 and J-20. Both have smooth underside surfaces. The Russian Pak-Fa/T-50 is the one that has little or no gap treatments. Your eyes can see the mess on the underside of the Pak-Fa/T-50.

XjnyQ.jpg

J-20 underside is smooth and clutter-free from vents, gaps, and stuff jutting out.

With regard to edge treatment, I have already covered part of this topic in my video. If you haven't watched it yet, make sure to do so and bring yourself up-to-date on stealth fighter design.

Edge treatment occurs in the following ways: "edge alignment , improved inlet , wing shaping and some nozzle edge treatment." On the J-20 Mighty Dragon, edge alignment is obvious from the "planform alignment" shown in my video. Improved inlet is the J-20 DSI bump. J-20 wing shaping has been modeled and tested on supercomputers and in wind tunnels. J-20 nozzle edge treatment is obvious from the saw-toothed engine nozzles and saw-toothed integration with the fuselage, which are shown in a picture below.

IblAB.jpg

J-20 advanced inlet with DSI technology is readily apparent.

X2oES.jpg

J-20 has saw-toothed engine nozzles and saw-toothed integration with the fuselage.

Gambit is determined to downplay the J-20 Mighty Dragon's excellent stealth design. He's anti-China. On the other hand, I'm objective.

He will keep posting an endless wall of text without discussing their relevance. His obfuscating tactic is to say or imply: "Look at this mountain of text. There must be a problem in here." However, I try to explain ideas to make them easily understandable to allow you to make an informed judgment.

My J-20 video has over 74,000 views. After you watch it, you will be a more knowledgeable person about stealth design. Gambit cannot point to a video that he has made on stealth design that is helpful to the public.

In my opinion, the disclaimer on backscatter point #2 (discussed above) has a minor effect on the results of Australia Air Power's "Physics Optics" simulation. Similarly, all of the disclaimed factors have a minor effect. Mr. Goon tells you that everything is "mitigated" or "reduced."

Please ignore Gambit. He will try to confuse you to pursue his anti-China political agenda. I've been straight with all of you from "day one." Six months ago, I said the J-20 was inferior to the F-22 and superior to the F-35. Now, Australia Air Power has confirmed my analysis.

 
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Truth is nobody knows the performance of J-20 in terms of low obserability. What Kopps did was a very basic experiment with a model of the design that may not be 100% consistent with the actual plane. All we know so far is that CAC was happy with the results they obtained from anechoic chamber testing. The aft body tailbooms and strakes will be removed when the production model is ready, confirmed by pupu. On the other hand, the nozzle is here to stay.
 
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Gambit, you fail to understand the importance of Australia Air Power's "Physics Optics" simulation.
I understand it better than you do.

They informed you that all of the errors are mitigated or reduced by a list of factors.
What they mean is they hope that it would.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill to try and discredit the J-20 Mighty Dragon's superlative design.
Superlative? Look who is making a mountain of a largely unknown 'molehill' now?

You are making the classical argument: "Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?" I'll trust my eyes over your misleading verbiage any day. Let's look at an example.
I trust the authors Skolnik and Knott. I have their superlative texts in my little library.

"Backscatter from surface travelling wave effects" sounds important, right? No. Mr. Goon told you that "edge treatments, lossy surface coatings, gap treatments, and panel serrations" can take care of the problem.
Then we should wait and see before Mr. Goon made his highly dubious PO measurement. Given the available technical knowledge out there that even the Iranians know them, we could only wonder as to why APA did not use the necessary combinations of measurement tools to measure their highly contrived virtual model.

Your eyes have seen the saw-toothed "panel serrations" on the landing and weapon bay panels. Your eyes can see the "lossy surface coatings" or radar-absorbent material on the F-22 and J-20.
Then why did APA use only PO?

He's anti-China.
Yes...Of course...Being critical and supporting of one's argument make one 'anti-China'.

On the other hand, I'm objective.
You mean you are wishful.

I see no need to address the rest of your drivel. Anyone, including your fellow Chinese, who is/are intellectually honest enough to read my post will see that I have history on my side. APA was wrong in using only Physical Optics.
 
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For those of you that followed the original J-20 thread and continued onto this thread, you remember that Gambit has made a big deal about "edge diffraction."

Also, Gambit makes a big deal about "edge diffraction" again with regard to Australia Air Power's point #1. To wit:

1- The simulator at this time does not model backscatter from edge diffraction effects, although the resulting error will be mitigated by the reality that in a mature production design these RCS contributions are reduced by edge treatments;

I have already mentioned that "the resulting error will be mitigated...by edge treatments."

However, I want to ask all of you an important question. Why isn't the supposed "military professional" informing you that NASA considers edge diffraction effects to be trivial?

Planet Quest: Technology - A Close Look at Diffraction

"A Closer Look at Diffraction

When an electromagnetic wave passes by an obstacle in space, the wave is bent around the object. This phenomenon is known as diffraction. The effects of diffraction are usually very small, so we seldom notice it."

After all the articles that Gambit has read on edge diffraction, why hasn't he ever told you that Jet Propulsion Laboratory/NASA states the effects of diffraction are trivial?

I did tell you guys that Gambit will mislead you to pursue his anti-China agenda. He hides behind technical terms to make false claims. In contrast, I explain "backscatter from edge diffraction" in understandable terms and provide a citation from a mainstream source.

Do you trust NASA's claim that "edge diffraction" is trivial or would you rather trust Gambit's anti-China agenda that "edge diffraction" is a really big problem (and only for the J-20, but not for the F-22 or F-35)?

[Note: The web address for my citation shows its from "jpl.nasa.gov".]
 
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Your eyes can also see the gap treatments on the F-22 and J-20. Both have smooth underside surfaces. The Russian Pak-Fa/T-50 is the one that has little or no gap treatments. Your eyes can see the mess on the underside of the Pak-Fa/T-50.



You call others trolls and accuse them of downplaying the J-20 but here you are shamelessly taking cheap shots at the pak-fa, ironically no one said a think about the pak-fa and no pak-fa fanboy insulted the mighty dragqueen and than you go crying that the J-20 mighty drag queen gets downplayed.



J-20 underside is smooth and clutter-free from vents, gaps, and stuff jutting out.



And those four sphere like objects under the wings that are about the size of a small outomobile are an elussion?




As for edge diffraction, please just keep quiet, you are the last person to lecture anyone on edge diffraction, let me remind the readers that you claimed the J-20's canards to be paper thin and thus good for 'stealth', how emmbaressing :lol:


Do you trust NASA's claim that "edge diffraction" is trivial or would you rather trust Gambit's anti-China agenda that "edge diffraction" is a really big problem (and only for the J-20, but not for the F-22 or F-35)?




That's because neither of those aircraft have canards. Any surface will give off edge diffraction, in this case the F-35 and F-22 have EM energy diffract off of their horizontal stabilizers--there is nothing behind those horizontal stabilizers, but with the J-20 the edge diffraction occurs off of the canards--a canards is located towards the front of the aircraft. It's also interesting that while you downplay edge diffraction while you rave about the 'saw tooth' patterns on the J-20, what do you think those are for?


When an electromagnetic wave passes by an obstacle in space, the wave is bent around the object. This phenomenon is known as diffraction. The effects of diffraction are usually very small, so we seldom notice it."





Why don't you try reading your sourse more carefully so next time so you spare yourself the humiliation. Lets see if anyone else notices you blunder.
 
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And those four sphere like objects under the wings that are about the size of a small outomobile are an elussion?

Yu3aR.jpg

Hydraulically-powered aileron control systems

Look at the location of the J-20 pods. They are located next to the ailerons. Hence, the pods are most likely hydraulically-powered aileron control systems encased in a radar-deflecting enclosure.

Look at the size of an oval aileron control pod and compare it to one of the tires. Each pod is merely the size of a tire, not an automobile. Feel free to retract your claim "about the size of [an aileron control pod being] a small automobile" and thank me for correcting your error.
 
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