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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

I just noticed, @scramble_nl changed the status of the 85th Air Brigade at Quzhou as being under conversion to J-20s.

Anyone with any explanation why they think it is getting them? AFAIK they are in fact from the 9th Brigade at Wuhu and at Quzhou due to air base renovations.

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it is around 21 meters, it could be 20.9 or 21.1, in the picture you posted the Su-27 is slightly ahead of where the J-20`s tail end, the Flanker is around 21.9 almost 22 meters, of course since the details are so blur people will see what ever they want, the F-22 and J-20 picture i posted before has a realistic scale since they use the canopies as measurement and they give a measure of 21.1 meters.


But i bet when the official dimensions are disclosed the J-20 length will be in the 21meters length range
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/t/j-20-5th-gen-fighter-thread-iv-closed-to-posting.6233/page-25

It took me 9 years to see it


In reality an apology should be voluntary and felt, so I do not need them, it only makes me happy to see the 21 meters length was correct, and the guy that made that picture was very smart.

at that time did not understand many things. Now I know more things and among one is stealth requierements demand larger aircraft due to internal weapons bays and the need for more internal fuel.

For a 1960s A-5 was an attack aircraft, same F-111, so wen J-20 appeared many people thought it was huge, well Su-35 is big and agile, but it is mostly for Thrust vectoring, the reality really agile aircraft are small like Rafale or Eurofighter.


J-20 is multirole, with TVC nozzles it will be able to make tighter turns and with high thrust keeo sustained tight turns but in reality is highly dependant upon avionics and weapons.

You will never see J-20 without TVC nozzles doing great maneuvres, but it does not need them advanced weapons and avionics allow it to fight.

Anyway regards Saludos

The Su-27 without TVC is very maneuverable that it could challenge F-16C & F/A-18C/E in dogfight. The Su-27 despite being large at 21.9m long, its design is more of a giant kite spreading the fuselage apart from 2 engines. Overall weight is just as heavy as the F-15E and F-14B. Whereas Mig-31, F-111F at 70ft have full volume fuselage making them heavier at 90,000-100,000lb max takeoff weight. There's internal gun in Mig-31 mainly because of requirement to gun down stealth bomber or any high asset value aircraft that it managed to catch up with its high speed should it runs out of missiles (spent on enemy fighters escorting the AWACS, bombers).

The J-20 has more volume of fuselage than the Su-35 therefore the J-20 is considered bigger and heavier. Since stealth aircraft relies on internal bay to retain stealth, China opted for large internal tank and internal bay to carry more missiles and bombs as opposed to US stealth fighters that can't fly multi-role sorties, yes you're right on this. Russian Su-57 adopted YF-23 approach while retaining everything stretch apart wings design to achieve high maneuverability.
 
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The Su-27 without TVC is very maneuverable that it could challenge F-16C & F/A-18C/E in dogfight. The Su-27 despite being large at 21.9m long, its design is more of a giant kite spreading the fuselage apart from 2 engines. Overall weight is just as heavy as the F-15E and F-14B. Whereas Mig-31, F-111F at 70ft have full volume fuselage making them heavier at 90,000-100,000lb max takeoff weight. There's internal gun in Mig-31 mainly because of requirement to gun down stealth bomber or any high asset value aircraft that it managed to catch up with its high speed should it runs out of missiles (spent on enemy fighters escorting the AWACS, bombers).

The J-20 has more volume of fuselage than the Su-35 therefore the J-20 is considered bigger and heavier. Since stealth aircraft relies on internal bay to retain stealth, China opted for large internal tank and internal bay to carry more missiles and bombs as opposed to US stealth fighters that can't fly multi-role sorties, yes you're right on this. Russian Su-57 adopted YF-23 approach while retaining everything stretch apart wings design to achieve high maneuverability.
I agree, but point is not to belittle any aircraft, is based upon physics, chemestry, that even a high school student should know. To put it simple carbon and aluminium are the lightest materials used in aerospace and all aircraft use them, basically is a limitation by chemestry.

Speed demand different features to an aircraft than stealth or agility.

In 1970 or 2021 if you want speed, no agility and no stealth a shape like Concorde is needed.
If you do not care for speed or stealth just agility, something like Su-29 or AM6 Zero is what you need.
If you want stealth F-117 or have blue is the ideal shape.

What I mean is all aircraft ask contradictory demands, J-20 is no exception, the aircraft is way too heavy, in order to be agile or fast needs lots of thrust.
Add TVC nozzles and it will give a stunning air show demostration, now it only flies like most other aircraft, nothing outstanding.

Su-27 has speed and agility as main contradictory demands but stealth did not play an important requirement.

Su-57 has speed, agility and stealth, like J-20 or F-22,

Su-35 can keep up with F-22 mostly due to better aerodynamics, but F-22 can keep up with Su-35 thanks to raw power I mean very powerful engine.

Speed asks for slender fuselages, basically bullet shaped something like concorde or Tu-160.

Agility basically asks if it is subsonic agility, for straight wings; or LEX and low swept wings like F-18 for something in the region of Mach 2.

Stealth asks for faceted fuselages, flat sides, and diamond shaped cross sections.

J-20 main contradiction is internal weapons bays and s shaped inlet ducts that add substantial weight, volume, size which is reflected on a larger aircraft and larger drag that needs bigger wings and more powerful engines with thrust vectoring.

Thrust vectoring also adds weight too and even can reduce thrust.

Flying wings have troubles of controlability so J-20 retains the main fuselage traights and control surfaces.

In few words contradictions and preference of requirements shape aircraft.

As it stands now J-20 is a bigger F-35 with canards to increase slightly agility.


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Modern TVC on high speed fighters is not meant for improving agility for dogfights, which was discovered by Russian researchers in Soviet era as it will bleed a lot of energy and make the aircraft a sitting duck. However they also stated that it will help pilots conduct manoeuvre more freely as TVC can come to the rescue whenever the aircraft enters stall if ongoing manoeuvre goes wrong.

F-22 and Su-57 use TVC mainly for maintaining good pitch controllability for supersonic flight and therefore the aircraft can obtain sufficient supersonic manoeuvrability. I don't really know about the rationale behind Su-30MKI using TVC anyway.
 
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Modern TVC on high speed fighters is not meant for improving agility for dogfights, which was discovered by Russian researchers in Soviet era as it will bleed a lot of energy and make the aircraft a sitting duck. However they also stated that it will help pilots conduct manoeuvre more freely as TVC can come to the rescue whenever the aircraft enters stall if ongoing manoeuvre goes wrong.

F-22 and Su-57 use TVC mainly for maintaining good pitch controllability for supersonic flight and therefore the aircraft can obtain sufficient supersonic manoeuvrability. I don't really know about the rationale behind Su-30MKI using TVC anyway.
Instantaneous turn rate is only the result of lift, thrust vectoring can not enhance it.

Sustained turn rate is improved by thrust vectoring and so is roll rate.

X-31 was able to defeat F-18s on TVC nozzles, however it was one on one combat.

On multi-aircraft engagements the over use of post-stall can lead to defeat, that is true.

For J-20 in order to have good climb rate, good acceleration and sustained turn rate, it needs a very powerful engine, thus WS-15 is needed.

The current engines WS-10s just by the display of Zhuhai by the J-20s, showed no post stall, and regular turns and rolls.

The reality is TVC only improves sustained turn rates 10%, its main mission is to use it for post-stall and reduce the need for larger aerodynamic control surfaces.

You can say for J-20 is more important to have a f119 or F135 type engine.

Post stall is only a safety feature but it can be used for air combat in the right situation for advantage in dogfights, Su-30MKI has TVC nozzles well Su-35 and Su-30MS to enhance sustained turn rates, or roll rates. but TVC nozzles add around 100 kg per engine so it reduces engine thrust to weight ratio.

J-20 might only need a better engine and a good helmet mounted sight.
 
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You can say for J-20 is more important to have a f119 or F135 type engine.

There are no permanent enemies, only permanent interests. I think it is possible for China to buy F-119 and F-135 from the US with full TOT. $100 billion is enough for the deal. But hell, this number is way too big. China must be crazy to pay this amount to buy technology
 
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There are no permanent enemies, only permanent interests. I think it is possible for China to buy F-119 and F-135 from the US with full TOT. $100 billion is enough for the deal. But hell, this number is way too big. China must be crazy to pay this amount to buy technology


Oh my god ... not sure, what you smoked, but you should stop it.

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I'm the only 1 believed your details. Now they know and owe you big apology.

The J-20 length is obviously at around 70ft with its height at 16ft yet it looks so long clearly tells that it has length close to Su-27, RA-5C & F-111 category.

Unlike YF-23 that is only 12ft in height it looks long and already at 67ft. So J-20 at 16ft to look that long would be 70ft at least.

The J-10 small wing surface area definitely can't perform cobra without TVC. Its wings are even smaller than Rafale & EF-2000.
Mr fake expert its clearly state here that j-20 considerably smaller than PLAAF su series of jets, slightly more larger than f-22/su-57 (66 feet) we have a sat pics of j-20 along with PLAAF su/j-11s in this thread
 
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If China is being outnumbered in that future war, losing a J-20 just to kill a B-2 is not really ideal. US would have far more stealth bombers and fighters if war broke out before 2025.

Chances of B-2 being outnumber by J-20 is more realistic than J-20 being out numbered by B-2. We all know how expensive a B-2 cost and a big reason why B-2 is produced in such limited number.
 
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Mr fake expert its clearly state here that j-20 considerably smaller than PLAAF su series of jets, slightly more larger than f-22/su-57 (66 feet) we have a sat pics of j-20 along with PLAAF su/j-11s in this thread

Seems like you're the only 1 having trouble understanding English. Most likely you're trolling. How come you're the only 1 that is having problem can't stick to topic? You owed Su-33KUB an apology because he guessed the length of J-20 correctly at 70ft range. Even I came up with that answer while you're the 1 condemning us as you sided with the google search information that proven wrong.
 
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Seems like you're the only 1 having trouble understanding English. Most likely you're trolling. How come you're the only 1 that is having problem can't stick to topic? You owed Su-33KUB an apology because he guessed the length of J-20 correctly at 70ft range. Even I came up with that answer while you're the 1 condemning us as you sided with the google search information that proven wrong.
anything you left from your baseless troll and rants, every major defense websites stating that J20 has length of under 70 feet and has almost length of Su57 (1 feet ) longer
 
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Instantaneous turn rate is only the result of lift, thrust vectoring can not enhance it.

Sustained turn rate is improved by thrust vectoring and so is roll rate.

X-31 was able to defeat F-18s on TVC nozzles, however it was one on one combat.

On multi-aircraft engagements the over use of post-stall can lead to defeat, that is true.

For J-20 in order to have good climb rate, good acceleration and sustained turn rate, it needs a very powerful engine, thus WS-15 is needed.

The current engines WS-10s just by the display of Zhuhai by the J-20s, showed no post stall, and regular turns and rolls.

The reality is TVC only improves sustained turn rates 10%, its main mission is to use it for post-stall and reduce the need for larger aerodynamic control surfaces.

You can say for J-20 is more important to have a f119 or F135 type engine.

Post stall is only a safety feature but it can be used for air combat in the right situation for advantage in dogfights, Su-30MKI has TVC nozzles well Su-35 and Su-30MS to enhance sustained turn rates, or roll rates. but TVC nozzles add around 100 kg per engine so it reduces engine thrust to weight ratio.

J-20 might only need a better engine and a good helmet mounted sight.

In fact you are absolutely correct.

My country operates Su-30MK with TVC and they said they'll use it whenever they need tighter turn during dogfight. Tested against F/A-18, Mig-29, BAe Hawk, the TVC eases things up in getting to their tails enjoying smaller turn radius. Of course they'll use it wisely based on limit, avoid bleeding out which would end up being easy target for enemy missiles.

J-20 is a large & heavy aircraft that it's perfect only to have powerful WS-15 40,000lb engine each with TVC and preferably having fitted internal gun. J-20 needed the TVC for high altitude maneuvering apart from improving turn radius. Current turn radius is too big, better than the F-14 but no where near Su-27, F/A-18E.
 
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Chances of B-2 being outnumber by J-20 is more realistic than J-20 being out numbered by B-2. We all know how expensive a B-2 cost and a big reason why B-2 is produced in such limited number.

Have you seen present US aircraft inventory? If China is unlucky being ganged up like Iraq, looking at India being close ally to US providing FOB to US, then China would fight outnumbered war. Based on Russian strategy against US in Mig-31, the internal gun is there to take out bombers if the Mig-31 managed to splash all the fighters escort with its R-33 left R-73 and GSH-23 for the bombers. The R-73 might not pack enough explosives to down the multi-engines bomber, so the gun is what it needs. If you have long range missiles and the enemy fighters aren't stealth, you would use your long range missiles on the fighters first removing deadly threats them the bombers, it's not an option if the bombers are stealth. I picked the Mig-31 as comparison because the J-20 reflects Mig-31 role more of F-22. Unless the bombers are B-52G/H then you may engage the bombers first.
 
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