Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[UKBengali]

Russia still has a clear lead for the time being. China has achieved self sufficiency but let’s not overstate things.

What "clear lead"?

Please explain your reasoning in detail.

 

[siegecrossbow]

What "clear lead"?

Please explain your reasoning in detail.

China hasn’t equipped WS-10B with comparable performance to AL-31FN series 3 on the J-10 series until last year. They didn’t resolve the relatively long spool up time for the WS-10 until the late 2010s as well. To date we haven’t seen WS-15 equipping any J-20 prototypes whereas a Su-57 has flown with its final engine.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

China hasn’t equipped WS-10B with comparable performance to AL-31FN series 3 on the J-10 series until last year. They didn’t resolve the relatively long spool up time for the WS-10 until the late 2010s as well. To date we haven’t seen WS-15 equipping any J-20 prototypes whereas a Su-57 has flown with its final engine.

"Haven't seen" and "hasn't happened" are distinct concepts. Even granting that the izd. 30's testing is ahead, the difference isn't sufficient to give Russia a clear lead. The difficulties you mentioned with China's engine program are significant, but the sums China has invested in the field (most notably since the establishment of AECC) are far greater than Russia's.

Given these factors, I don't think it's tenable that Russia has a clear lead. If it still has a lead, it's a very slight one and it will soon be overtaken. The story is different in high-bypass turbofans (especially civilian ones) - there I think China needs about five more years to catch up, but that's not the subject of this discussion.

That's just engines. When it comes to overall capability, the numbers of J-20s vs Su-57s speak for themselves.

 

[Figaro]

I presume, there is a lot that can be learned from having a working engine, with the goal capabilities, then not having the engine at all. Figuring out the manufacturing technique will still pose a challenge, as we have seen with the WS-10 engines and the years China has been operating the Al-31 Class of engines, but it helps the overall development. At the very least, once Russia sells the 180kn class engines to China it will be more likely to sell them for use in the J-20 directly. China may take 3, 5, even 10 years to catch up, but in the mean times they will be learning from operating the Russian engines and investing as much as is needed to reverse engineer it (by hook or crook) as is needed.

There is no way China would turn back to Russia for engine dependency on their pre-eminent fighter especially after just switching to WS-10 in the past 3 years. And considering that the latest WS-10 is already on par with the 117S, I don't see why the WS-15 cannot come close or possibly even exceed the Izd 30 engine. Note the Izd 30 has already been in flight testing since late 2017 and has barely moved a needle in terms of progress. Both countries, China and Russia, used clean sheet designs in their newest generation gas turbines (WS-15/Izd 30), so the footing should be much more equal.

 

[FuturePAF]

Is the Izdeliye engine with 40,000lb perfected yet? The last I heard, T-50 both prototypes are fitted with AL-41F engines. If Izdeliye is still in development stage, WS-15 might be ready sooner due to better funding and resources.

The Indian border, PLAAF finds IAF threat as low compared to east and south east border where there's threat from US. IAF kept asking why there's no J-20 in west border.

If the WS-15 engine ready before the Izdeliye Engine, then its a moot point. But if the Russian engine becomes ready and the Chinese engine looks like it’s still years away, then it would only be prudent to buy the Russian engine, until Chinese scientists can catch up.

Weren’t there J-20’s deployed to Hotan recently? India maybe a lower priority threat, but it can flare up, which is why Hotan seems to be undergoing a major upgrade. You are right, Just like the Su-35, the Chinese will probably deploy any T-50 it acquires primarily along the coastal regions, but a few near India (6-12) could be adequate to maintain a strike force or blocking force in the event of any sudden escalation along the western LAC.

Chinese Stealth Fighters Head West To Confront India

Two Chinese air force J-20 stealth fighters have appeared at an air base in China’s far west as the mountain stand-off between India and Chine enters its fourth months.

www.google.com

There is no way China would turn back to Russia for engine dependency on their pre-eminent fighter especially after just switching to WS-10 in the past 3 years. And considering that the latest WS-10 is already on par with the 117S, I don't see why the WS-15 cannot come close or possibly even exceed the Izd 30 engine. Note the Izd 30 has already been in flight testing since late 2017 and has barely moved a needle in terms of progress. Both countries, China and Russia, used clean sheet designs in their newest generation gas turbines (WS-15/Izd 30), so the footing should be much more equal.

Hopefully the WS-15 will be ready before the Izd 30, but if it isn’t, and if major delays come up in the WS-15 program and if the Izd 30 reaches performance goals, then its just prudent to buy a batch of Izd 30 to speed up the J-20’s development.

 

[UKBengali]

"Haven't seen" and "hasn't happened" are distinct concepts. Even granting that the izd. 30's testing is ahead, the difference isn't sufficient to give Russia a clear lead. The difficulties you mentioned with China's engine program are significant, but the sums China has invested in the field (most notably since the establishment of AECC) are far greater than Russia's.

Given these factors, I don't think it's tenable that Russia has a clear lead. If it still has a lead, it's a very slight one and it will soon be overtaken. The story is different in high-bypass turbofans (especially civilian ones) - there I think China needs about five more years to catch up, but that's not the subject of this discussion.

That's just engines. When it comes to overall capability, the numbers of J-20s vs Su-57s speak for themselves.

The difference is that China is closing the technological gap with the US while the Russians are steadily falling further behind.

By 2030, no-one would seriously think that Russia was even on a par with China in military technology, let alone be ahead in any area.

 

[S10]

The difference is that China is closing the technological gap with the US while the Russians are steadily falling further behind.

By 2030, no-one would seriously think that Russia was even on a par with China in military technology, let alone be ahead in any area.

No one is seriously thinking Russia is on par today.

Russian and Chinese Combat Air Trends: Current Capabilities and Future Threat Outlook

This Whitehall Report examines Russian and Chinese combat air trends, and looks specifically at fast jets and their weapons systems and capabilities.

rusi.org

 

[UKBengali]

No one is seriously thinking Russia is on par today.

Russian and Chinese Combat Air Trends: Current Capabilities and Future Threat Outlook

This Whitehall Report examines Russian and Chinese combat air trends, and looks specifically at fast jets and their weapons systems and capabilities.

rusi.org

Well a “think tank” here seems to think so.

Russia is a has been and no match for China anymore.

 

[S10]

Well a “think tank” here seems to think so.

Russia is a has been and no match for China anymore.

The only area where Russia still maintains parity, or perhaps a slight edge, is engine development. China will inevitably close this gap in the next few years as it can invest significantly more resources than Russia can afford to.

Last year, Russia's entire economy is smaller than my home province of Guangdong. Also in the last year, China's per capita GDP exceeded that of Russia's. The comparison at this point should be focused on China-US.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

IMO Russia has many great aeronautical engineers and aircraft designers but their works are led down by Russia obsolescent Military Manufacturing Complexes and other related technologies e.g. metallurgy, electronic, etc.
Today China are assisting Russia to upgrade her military industries as well as others.

Look at Hongdu L-15 advance trainer.
The design of the L-15 is in fact submitted by Yakovlev and that is why it looks almost similar to Yak-130.
Apart from the design, everything else inside the L-15 are developed by the Chinese themselves.
Yakovlev has admitted that fact openly.
They are design consultant for the L-15.
An example of collaboration between China and Russia aeronautical companies.
CR-929 airliner is another one.

 

[Figaro]

You're twisting story desperately to win. Refer older replies, manufacturers do provide fuel consumption and richer authors willing to buy the details would get the specifications.

Military aircraft information that is classified mostly on avionics capabilities, effectiveness and how they actually fare against enemy. That is why video on latest F-15C with AESA radar documentary, they would censor the MFD when powered up.

You can go to manufacturer or their marketing agents only if you are potential buyers but they won't entertain low life like you that can't even afford to buy Jane's book.

Can we please stop arguing about this matter ... it's not even related to the J-20 anymore. Thanks. And honestly, I think you both should just place each other on the ignore list because all you guys do is get into heated arguments.

 

[Deino]

Guys ... it is enough!

 

[Type59]

What will they do with the hundreds of j7?

Museums, sell them to private collectors and of course the most worn will be scrapped.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Guys ... it is enough!

You are a mod here. Time to act.

 

[Deino]

Ok guys ... let's keep it simple!

I already requested you to stop with these constant back&forth off topic and insulting replies. As such both of you will get a warning and since you are both calling me the other one to ban, I give you yet another warning: The one of you two with the next comment to ban the other one will get a looooong vacation from PDF.

I really have enough!