Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[serenity]

PLA strength is hidden and important information and important weapons are also totally hidden. Because they do not want to give Americans concern and worry even further. If the Americans know the true levels of PLA beyond just what we already know, they will spent even more money and energy to develop even better things. PLA is worried to let Americans feel the threat and use even more funds from GPD to military purposes. PLA will always show itself as much weaker than really is. If USA spends the same level as always, it is less work for PLA. If PLA announce and show what they really already using now and have close to readiness, the USA will have a revolution in politics and instead of low level trade war and calm military development, the USA will suddenly increase military spending to 10% GPD maybe and change its culture into a world war like mentality. PLA's strategy is to keep US military as comfortable feeling as possible for as long as possible.

Even though many American generals and military leaders talk about how strong China is now, most politicians still think the USA is 50 years ahead every way. This is what CCP and PLA would prefer and would prefer those Generals and military men be more quiet and think confidently like the civilians and normal soldiers.

J-20 is interpret as 60 total. Only some interpret as 60 per year although 60 per year could also become possible in future but will require many new factories and all producing J-20. So Deino is right. At moment maybe the best situation is 60 total I think. I don't have any doubts this is what's happening. But China is surprise. It could be many more than this. I do not believe they do the opposite and say they have 60 now when only truly have 30 or 40. It's much more likely when they say 60 they have many more than 60 and have been building factories all over China from 5 years ago while the program is finishing up with factory changing along with any final changes. Things happen together in China rather than one after another. With problems solved as discarding if there are any. Non-Chinese do not understand Chinese engineering program management at all. Everything happens together. Foundation is built while material for top is already supplied. If there is a problem, the next day the top material supply is corrected and problem parts as loss discarded.

 

[Figaro]

That's for sure and nothing I expect (even if that would be great), but given an assumption based on other units - J-10C, J-11B, J-16, ... - that we know about 1/2 to 2/3 of a given unit, and even then I end at 40 or best at between 8-12 for each of the FTTB units and 24-28 units at Wuhu making in summary 48-50 J-20s and still not 60.

This however - and given the public interest in that type - would be needed to sum up to 60+, namely that one complete additional unit is missing. I find it most unlikely that such a high number of J-20s would suddenly come out of the blue especially not one of the premier fighter units which are quite well know.

And one additional argument exactly picking up your "the entire PLA & Chinese intelligence agencies are doing their best to hide the PLA's capabilities" story: In a similar way the PLAAF is hiding a much larger number of J-20 in order to look weaker it could also be that they simply have not more but instead spread such rumours, which were eagerly picked up by the community and even more hyped up by such BS-reporters like Minnie Chan, only to look stronger than they are in fact!

Just a similar - and IMO more likely - option!

Honestly it would be smarter to spend less money on the J-20s with interim engines given how large of an upgrade the WS-15 (180 kN vs the 140-150 kN currently) will bring. I really don't see the PLAAF procuring a massive number of J-20s currently for this single reason alone. And given the massive difference between the WS-15 and WS-10 (especially in bypass ratio), I doubt current J-20s could be re-engined to the WS-15 due to the likely change in intake design to accommodate the new engine.

 

[Deino]

Honestly it would be smarter to spend less money on the J-20s with interim engines given how large of an upgrade the WS-15 (180 kN vs the 140-150 kN currently) will bring. I really don't see the PLAAF procuring a massive number of J-20s currently for this single reason alone. And given the massive difference between the WS-15 and WS-10 (especially in bypass ratio), I doubt current J-20s could be re-engined to the WS-15 due to the likely change in intake design to accommodate the new engine.

Sorry, but how refers this to my post?

 

[Figaro]

Sorry, but how refers this to my post?

I was mainly counteracting this bolded assertion.

And one additional argument exactly picking up your "the entire PLA & Chinese intelligence agencies are doing their best to hide the PLA's capabilities" story: In a similar way the PLAAF is hiding a much larger number of J-20 in order to look weaker it could also be that they simply have not more but instead spread such rumours, which were eagerly picked up by the community and even more hyped up by such BS-reporters like Minnie Chan, only to look stronger than they are in fact!

 

[LKJ86]

We know so far exactly 18 J-20s confirmed by individual numbers, we know production of the WS-10C-powered ones started at around mid-2019. Since then we've seen "several" yellow painted ones at CAC ... but: these "several" are altogether only a hand full of images with a maximum of 4 in a shelter together.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1297143688783630337

https://twitter.com/x/status/1291638191880122368

https://twitter.com/x/status/1292961335769210880

Obviously, PLAAF doesn't want you guys to get such images.

 

[LKJ86]

I was mainly counteracting this bolded assertion.

And one additional argument exactly picking up your "the entire PLA & Chinese intelligence agencies are doing their best to hide the PLA's capabilities" story: In a similar way the PLAAF is hiding a much larger number of J-20 in order to look weaker it could also be that they simply have not more but instead spread such rumours, which were eagerly picked up by the community and even more hyped up by such BS-reporters like Minnie Chan, only to look stronger than they are in fact!

China has built over 500 J-10s, and how many ones do you know?

 

[LKJ86]

Honestly it would be smarter to spend less money on the J-20s with interim engines given how large of an upgrade the WS-15 (180 kN vs the 140-150 kN currently) will bring. I really don't see the PLAAF procuring a massive number of J-20s currently for this single reason alone. And given the massive difference between the WS-15 and WS-10 (especially in bypass ratio), I doubt current J-20s could be re-engined to the WS-15 due to the likely change in intake design to accommodate the new engine.

1. There is an annual budget for PLAAF, and why can't PLAAF buy what she needs?
2. PLAAF desperately needs to upgrade her fighter jets, and is there any one better than J-20 equipped with WS-10?
3. Nothing is perfect. PLAAF also bought hundreds of J-10A, instead of just waiting for J-10B/C.

 

[Deino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1297143688783630337

https://twitter.com/x/status/1291638191880122368

https://twitter.com/x/status/1292961335769210880

Obviously, PLAAF doesn't want you guys to get such images.

I know and exactly this cat & mice game is what I like so much.

 

[LKJ86]

J-20Q

Via @Fighterman_久丽美学研究 and @模人一架 from Weibo

 

[LKJ86]

Otherwise I urge all supporters of "there are 60 or even more" to explain, where these missing birds should be?!

According to the same standard, does PLAAF have 24 Su-35SK?

 

[Enigma SIG]

J-20Q
View attachment 664392View attachment 664393View attachment 664394View attachment 664395View attachment 664396View attachment 664397View attachment 664398
Via @Fighterman_久丽美学研究 and @模人一架 from Weibo

Cute Kit. I remember doing a F-104 Starfighter in my school days. Fun times.

 

[Clutch]

Problem: China's J-20 Stealth Fighter Doesn't Have a Gun

January 3, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Asia Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags:

ChinaMilitaryTechnologyWorldJ-20Stealth


Observers of the twin-engine stealth fighter long had speculated that the J-20 lacks a cannon. Photography of J-20s since the type's first flight in January 2011 hadn't revealed bulges or openings that might point to an internal gun. The J-20 hadn't appeared in public carrying an external gun pod.

Observers of the twin-engine stealth fighter long had speculated that the J-20 lacks a cannon. Photography of J-20s since the type's first flight in January 2011 hadn't revealed bulges or openings that might point to an internal gun. The J-20 hadn't appeared in public carrying an external gun pod.


Aviation journalist Andreas Rupprecht confirmed the weapon's absence in the January 2019 issue of Combat Aircraft.

The same story detailed the J-20's standard weapons loadout. The 67-feet-long warplane, the first squadron of which became operational in early 2018, features three weapons bays -- one each along each intake "cheek" and a third, larger bay along the centerline.

Problem China's J-20 Stealth Fighter Doesn't Have a Gun

NOW
PLAYING

At the Zhuhai air show in November 2018, a pair of J-20s opened their weapons bays in full view of the crowd. Each fighter carried a one PL-10 short-range air-to-air missile in each side bay plus four long-range PL-15 missiles in the centerline bay.


The PL-10 is roughly equivalent to the U.S. Sidewinder missile. The PL-15 is similar to the American Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, or AMRAAM.

The J-20's bay layout is unsurprising. The U.S. Air Force's own F-22 stealth fighter also has three weapons bays in similar locations to those on the Chinese jet. The American plane's bays are bigger and together accommodate eight missiles.

The U.S.-made F-35 stealth fighter, by contrast, has a single, large centerline bay that, as of late 2018, could carry just two AMRAAMs. However, both the F-22 and F-35 also boast cannons as back-up to their missiles. The F-22 has an internal 20-millimeter gun. The F-35's 35-millimeter gun is internal on the type's conventional-takeoff A- and C-models. In the short-takeoff, vertical-landing F-35B, the gun is in a detachable pod.

The F-35's gun is not without controversy. Many early-model F-35s lack the software to use the gun at all. And the weapon is inaccurate, according to the office of the U.S. Defense Department's chief weapons-tester.

But at least the F-35 has a gun. Marine Corps F-35s carried their cannon pods on the type's first combat sortie in U.S. service, over Afghanistan in September 2018.

The U.S. military learned the hard way to arm its fighters with guns. As air-to-air missiles became common in the 1950s and '60s, American warplane-designers omitted guns from many fighter types, assuming all air-battles would be fought at long distances, rendering redundant shorter-range weapons.

During the Vietnam War, air crews flying early F-4s and other fighter types quickly came to regret that design choice. Close, chaotic dogfights in crowded airspace favored traditional gunnery. “That was the biggest mistake on the F-4,” John Chesire, who flew 197 combat missions during two tours in Vietnam, told Air & Space. “Bullets are cheap and tend to go where you aim them. I needed a gun, and I really wished I had one.”

The U.S. military added a gun to the ultimate E model of the F-4, as well as to all subsequent American fighter types. "The aerodynamic limitations inherent in employing missiles at minimum range makes the gun weapon system crucial for tomorrow’s combat arena," U.S. Air Force major Stuart Nichols explained in a 1998 paper for the Air Command and Staff College.

"The gun is a simple weapon system to employ and maintain," Nichols added. "It cannot be degraded by enemy electronic countermeasures or flare decoys which all help to degrade missile performance. Another significant benefit of using a gun is that it isn’t reliant on the aircraft’s radar system. Radar missiles must work in concert with the aircraft’s radar, which is very susceptible to enemy aircraft maneuver and countermeasures."

Today most of the world's fighters possess a gun. The J-20 is the exception. And the Chinese air force eventually might learn what the U.S. Air Force learned two generations ago over Vietnam. Giving up the gun is risky.

 

[Beast]

Problem: China's J-20 Stealth Fighter Doesn't Have a Gun

January 3, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Asia Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags:

ChinaMilitaryTechnologyWorldJ-20Stealth


Observers of the twin-engine stealth fighter long had speculated that the J-20 lacks a cannon. Photography of J-20s since the type's first flight in January 2011 hadn't revealed bulges or openings that might point to an internal gun. The J-20 hadn't appeared in public carrying an external gun pod.

Observers of the twin-engine stealth fighter long had speculated that the J-20 lacks a cannon. Photography of J-20s since the type's first flight in January 2011 hadn't revealed bulges or openings that might point to an internal gun. The J-20 hadn't appeared in public carrying an external gun pod.


Aviation journalist Andreas Rupprecht confirmed the weapon's absence in the January 2019 issue of Combat Aircraft.

The same story detailed the J-20's standard weapons loadout. The 67-feet-long warplane, the first squadron of which became operational in early 2018, features three weapons bays -- one each along each intake "cheek" and a third, larger bay along the centerline.

Problem China's J-20 Stealth Fighter Doesn't Have a Gun

NOW
PLAYING

At the Zhuhai air show in November 2018, a pair of J-20s opened their weapons bays in full view of the crowd. Each fighter carried a one PL-10 short-range air-to-air missile in each side bay plus four long-range PL-15 missiles in the centerline bay.


The PL-10 is roughly equivalent to the U.S. Sidewinder missile. The PL-15 is similar to the American Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, or AMRAAM.

The J-20's bay layout is unsurprising. The U.S. Air Force's own F-22 stealth fighter also has three weapons bays in similar locations to those on the Chinese jet. The American plane's bays are bigger and together accommodate eight missiles.

The U.S.-made F-35 stealth fighter, by contrast, has a single, large centerline bay that, as of late 2018, could carry just two AMRAAMs. However, both the F-22 and F-35 also boast cannons as back-up to their missiles. The F-22 has an internal 20-millimeter gun. The F-35's 35-millimeter gun is internal on the type's conventional-takeoff A- and C-models. In the short-takeoff, vertical-landing F-35B, the gun is in a detachable pod.

The F-35's gun is not without controversy. Many early-model F-35s lack the software to use the gun at all. And the weapon is inaccurate, according to the office of the U.S. Defense Department's chief weapons-tester.

But at least the F-35 has a gun. Marine Corps F-35s carried their cannon pods on the type's first combat sortie in U.S. service, over Afghanistan in September 2018.

The U.S. military learned the hard way to arm its fighters with guns. As air-to-air missiles became common in the 1950s and '60s, American warplane-designers omitted guns from many fighter types, assuming all air-battles would be fought at long distances, rendering redundant shorter-range weapons.

During the Vietnam War, air crews flying early F-4s and other fighter types quickly came to regret that design choice. Close, chaotic dogfights in crowded airspace favored traditional gunnery. “That was the biggest mistake on the F-4,” John Chesire, who flew 197 combat missions during two tours in Vietnam, told Air & Space. “Bullets are cheap and tend to go where you aim them. I needed a gun, and I really wished I had one.”

The U.S. military added a gun to the ultimate E model of the F-4, as well as to all subsequent American fighter types. "The aerodynamic limitations inherent in employing missiles at minimum range makes the gun weapon system crucial for tomorrow’s combat arena," U.S. Air Force major Stuart Nichols explained in a 1998 paper for the Air Command and Staff College.

"The gun is a simple weapon system to employ and maintain," Nichols added. "It cannot be degraded by enemy electronic countermeasures or flare decoys which all help to degrade missile performance. Another significant benefit of using a gun is that it isn’t reliant on the aircraft’s radar system. Radar missiles must work in concert with the aircraft’s radar, which is very susceptible to enemy aircraft maneuver and countermeasures."

Today most of the world's fighters possess a gun. The J-20 is the exception. And the Chinese air force eventually might learn what the U.S. Air Force learned two generations ago over Vietnam. Giving up the gun is risky.

Gun is useless. I know some will claim Vietnam era airwar as gun is still relevant. But ask yourself, how many years is Vietnam war? 50 years ago thing. We are into the era of even unmanned drone.

The sidewinder during Vietnam era cannot engage enemy aircraft at close range of 1-3km. Modern WVRAAM can even engage enemy aircraft at gun range and not to mention multi angle which gun is not possible to do it.

I can for sure bet, there will never be a scenario where u need gun to engage a competitive enemy aircraft in modern era aerial warfare.

 

[LKJ86]

Today most of the world's fighters possess a gun. The J-20 is the exception.

What about F-35B and F-35C?

 

[Figaro]

Problem: China's J-20 Stealth Fighter Doesn't Have a Gun

January 3, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Asia Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags:

ChinaMilitaryTechnologyWorldJ-20Stealth


Observers of the twin-engine stealth fighter long had speculated that the J-20 lacks a cannon. Photography of J-20s since the type's first flight in January 2011 hadn't revealed bulges or openings that might point to an internal gun. The J-20 hadn't appeared in public carrying an external gun pod.

Observers of the twin-engine stealth fighter long had speculated that the J-20 lacks a cannon. Photography of J-20s since the type's first flight in January 2011 hadn't revealed bulges or openings that might point to an internal gun. The J-20 hadn't appeared in public carrying an external gun pod.


Aviation journalist Andreas Rupprecht confirmed the weapon's absence in the January 2019 issue of Combat Aircraft.

The same story detailed the J-20's standard weapons loadout. The 67-feet-long warplane, the first squadron of which became operational in early 2018, features three weapons bays -- one each along each intake "cheek" and a third, larger bay along the centerline.

Problem China's J-20 Stealth Fighter Doesn't Have a Gun

NOW
PLAYING

At the Zhuhai air show in November 2018, a pair of J-20s opened their weapons bays in full view of the crowd. Each fighter carried a one PL-10 short-range air-to-air missile in each side bay plus four long-range PL-15 missiles in the centerline bay.


The PL-10 is roughly equivalent to the U.S. Sidewinder missile. The PL-15 is similar to the American Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, or AMRAAM.

The J-20's bay layout is unsurprising. The U.S. Air Force's own F-22 stealth fighter also has three weapons bays in similar locations to those on the Chinese jet. The American plane's bays are bigger and together accommodate eight missiles.

The U.S.-made F-35 stealth fighter, by contrast, has a single, large centerline bay that, as of late 2018, could carry just two AMRAAMs. However, both the F-22 and F-35 also boast cannons as back-up to their missiles. The F-22 has an internal 20-millimeter gun. The F-35's 35-millimeter gun is internal on the type's conventional-takeoff A- and C-models. In the short-takeoff, vertical-landing F-35B, the gun is in a detachable pod.

The F-35's gun is not without controversy. Many early-model F-35s lack the software to use the gun at all. And the weapon is inaccurate, according to the office of the U.S. Defense Department's chief weapons-tester.

But at least the F-35 has a gun. Marine Corps F-35s carried their cannon pods on the type's first combat sortie in U.S. service, over Afghanistan in September 2018.

The U.S. military learned the hard way to arm its fighters with guns. As air-to-air missiles became common in the 1950s and '60s, American warplane-designers omitted guns from many fighter types, assuming all air-battles would be fought at long distances, rendering redundant shorter-range weapons.

During the Vietnam War, air crews flying early F-4s and other fighter types quickly came to regret that design choice. Close, chaotic dogfights in crowded airspace favored traditional gunnery. “That was the biggest mistake on the F-4,” John Chesire, who flew 197 combat missions during two tours in Vietnam, told Air & Space. “Bullets are cheap and tend to go where you aim them. I needed a gun, and I really wished I had one.”

The U.S. military added a gun to the ultimate E model of the F-4, as well as to all subsequent American fighter types. "The aerodynamic limitations inherent in employing missiles at minimum range makes the gun weapon system crucial for tomorrow’s combat arena," U.S. Air Force major Stuart Nichols explained in a 1998 paper for the Air Command and Staff College.

"The gun is a simple weapon system to employ and maintain," Nichols added. "It cannot be degraded by enemy electronic countermeasures or flare decoys which all help to degrade missile performance. Another significant benefit of using a gun is that it isn’t reliant on the aircraft’s radar system. Radar missiles must work in concert with the aircraft’s radar, which is very susceptible to enemy aircraft maneuver and countermeasures."

Today most of the world's fighters possess a gun. The J-20 is the exception. And the Chinese air force eventually might learn what the U.S. Air Force learned two generations ago over Vietnam. Giving up the gun is risky.

Please do not quote the National Interest here ... its quality (or lack thereof) is only rivaled by that of Minnie Chan over at SCMP.

What about F-35B and F-35C?

Responding to a National Interest article will just cause loss of brain cells.