What's new

Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

How can internal weapon bays increase drag of the 5th gen stealth jet kindly explain maybe it increases little bit weight and both Russia and China working their 5th gen engine for their 5th gen jets from day one both Su-57/J-20 known to have interim engine,and as they(China/Russia)have different philosophy then USA they will use tactics against enemy(USA)shoot and scoot (leave)guideness of BVR is/will be the job of AWACS @Su33KUB
aircraft having internal weapons have more internal volume to accommodate the weapons, the racks and the systems to launch its weapons, thus will increase their internal volume, see how much bigger is F-35 compared to F-16 or Mirage III compared to F-106, in order to have similar performance you need much more powerful engines.

In F-35 it has a wider Cross section than F-16 with almost same length, but F-106 is not only wider than Mirage III, but also longer

71910832_3329878933731106_6178553490315411456_n.jpg


As the F-117 had shown, stealth affects every aspect of a design. Internal weapon carriage, a must for a stealthy design, increases the cross section of an airplane. Larger cross sections increase supersonic drag and work against supercruise. "A stealthy airplane requires a big weapon bay," explains Hardy. "And the landing gear and the inlet duct want to be in the same place as the weapon bay. You wind up with a guppy that won't go supersonic unless you make it very long with huge engines. Such an approach is a nonstarter because the airplane would be way too expensive."

Maneuverability requirements tend to increase the size of the wings and tails and make the engines bigger than necessary for supercruise alone, all of which make stealth more difficult to achieve. Those few pilots who were briefed on the F-117 knew about compromises in speed, maneuverability, payload, and other capabilities that went along with an all-out approach to stealth. Fighter pilots who would be flying the ATF would not willingly sacrifice these capabilities for stealth.


https://www.codeonemagazine.com/f22_article.html?item_id=179

71352237_1224960117708078_4708923450943602688_n.jpg



see J-20 has a huge fuselage because also has a huge cross section, as the article says
 
Last edited:
. .
aircraft having internal weapons have more internal volume to accommodate the weapons, the racks and the systems to launch its weapons, thus will increase their internal volume, see how much bigger is F-35 compared to F-16 or Mirage III compared to F-106, in order to have similar performance you need much more powerful engines.

In F-35 it has a wider Cross section than F-16 with almost same length, but F-106 is not only wider than Mirage III, but also longer

71910832_3329878933731106_6178553490315411456_n.jpg


As the F-117 had shown, stealth affects every aspect of a design. Internal weapon carriage, a must for a stealthy design, increases the cross section of an airplane. Larger cross sections increase supersonic drag and work against supercruise. "A stealthy airplane requires a big weapon bay," explains Hardy. "And the landing gear and the inlet duct want to be in the same place as the weapon bay. You wind up with a guppy that won't go supersonic unless you make it very long with huge engines. Such an approach is a nonstarter because the airplane would be way too expensive."

Maneuverability requirements tend to increase the size of the wings and tails and make the engines bigger than necessary for supercruise alone, all of which make stealth more difficult to achieve. Those few pilots who were briefed on the F-117 knew about compromises in speed, maneuverability, payload, and other capabilities that went along with an all-out approach to stealth. Fighter pilots who would be flying the ATF would not willingly sacrifice these capabilities for stealth.


https://www.codeonemagazine.com/f22_article.html?item_id=179

71352237_1224960117708078_4708923450943602688_n.jpg



see J-20 has a huge fuselage because also has a huge cross section, as the article says
My question still remains how can internal weapon bays increase a drag for stealth jets give me valid/technical reasons for teen series of jets like f16 has more drag because external payloads,stealth jets has less drag than all teen series of jets and don't contradict yourself first saying f35 bigger than f16 and later you saying its matches f16 in length and i already told you in j20 there are still interim engine is , China is relatively new on engine field first they installed al31fn on j20 then WS-10 and within the few year (2023) they will install their intended engine on j20 named ws-15
 
.
My question still remains how can internal weapon bays increase a drag for stealth jets give me valid/technical reasons for teen series of jets like f16 has more drag because external payloads,stealth jets has less drag than all teen series of jets and don't contradict yourself first saying f35 bigger than f16 and later you saying its matches f16 in length and i already told you in j20 there are still interim engine is , China is relatively new on engine field first they installed al31fn on j20 then WS-10 and within the few year (2023) they will install their intended engine on j20 named ws-15
get this


F-15 has external weapons drag, but its cross section is smaller and has semi-recessed air to air missiles of low drag, F-22 has no external weapons drag, but its bigger cross section makes for bigger surface pushing against the air, to overcome for that higher weight and bigger cross section then you need bigger wings, bigger wings are higher drag, but much powerful engines give a counter balance for drag, and no, Rafale can out turn or at least have parity in WVR combat against F-22 even without TVC nozzles why? better lift to drag ratio, you are using cliches of Forum, you can only have lesser drag if the jet has much more powerful engines because thrust counterbalances drag or you reduce cross section.

If you can not understand that then read more.
 
Last edited:
.
get this


F-15 has external weapons drag, but its cross section is smaller and has semi-recessed air to air missiles of low drag, F-22 has no external weapons drag, but its bigger cross section makes for bigger surface pushing against the air, to overcome for that higher weight and bigger cross section then you need bigger wings, bigger wings are higher drag, but much powerful engines give a counter balance for drag, and no, Rafale can out turn or at least have parity in WVR combat against F-22 even without TVC nozzles why? better lift to drag ratio, you are using cliches of Forum, you can only have lesser drag if the jet has much more powerful engines because thrust counterbalances drag.

If you can understand that read more.
Are you talking about RCS (RADAR CROSS SECTION) AND f22 and f15 have almost same lengths 62 feet (f22) 63 feet (f15) so cross section is/will be almost same but f22 much heavier than f15 that's why its uses high power engine to overcome weight issue and remember f15 is not stealth oriented design whereas f22
 
. .
Are you talking about RCS (RADAR CROSS SECTION) AND f22 and f15 have almost same lengths 62 feet (f22) 63 feet (f15) so cross section is/will be almost same but f22 much heavier than f15 that's why its uses high power engine to overcome weight issue and remember f15 is not stealth oriented design whereas f22



images


Stealth increases cross sectional area because the need of internal weapons bays, larger cross sectional area means higher drag

images


w628.jpg


It is self evident in this picture the F-16 is much thinner than F-35, F-35 has also the empty weight of a F-15 , around 13000kg while F-16 is much lighter around 8 tonnes depending in the version.


All these new fifth generation aircraft then use more powerful engines than the previous generation aircraft that they are replacing because they are heavier due to S shaped air intake ducting and internal weapons bays, J-20 will need engines in the region of 16 tonnes to achieve similar TWR to J-11 since its normal take off is around 30000 kg, without it, it is highly underpowered and its fixed air intakes limited to low acceleration at speeds beyond Mach 1.6, without such engines J-20 is not better than previous generation fighters at best
 
Last edited:
.
Are you talking about RCS (RADAR CROSS SECTION) AND f22 and f15 have almost same lengths 62 feet (f22) 63 feet (f15) so cross section is/will be almost same...
That is NOT how it works. I have been saying this since '09 and I will repeat...

There are three rules in designing a low radar observable body...

- Control of QUANTITY radiators
- Control of ARRAY of radiators
- Control of MODES of radiation

In radar detection, the sphere is the calibration body because the sphere is most obedient to the three rules. In fact, there is a sphere in orbit so ground based radars can test their efficiency.

https://www.centurymetalspinning.com/radar-calibration-spheres/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Calibration_Sphere_1

The three rules are the laws of physics.

What this mean is that if you build a sphere whose diameter is the same as the F-15's length -- 63 ft -- the sphere would have a lower RCS. The F-22 was designed to be more obedient to the three rules than the F-15 so the F-22 will have a lower RCS.

Regarding the three rules, if you make a change to the body under one rule you will affect the other two. The only exception is rule three: Control of MODES of radiation. If you somehow managed to absorb/negate all incoming signals no matter their operating freq and amplitude, in effect, you have absolute control over all EM signals, you can ignore the other two rules.

The problem throughout the yrs since 'stealth' came into public view is that everyone want simple answers, especially if the answers swings in their favors, as in my country have the best 'stealth' fighters, and so on. And when the answers do not agree to their made up minds, they get angry and the inevitable results are nationalistic mud slinging and personal attacks.
 
.
images


Stealth increases cross sectional area because the need of internal weapons bays, larger cross sectional area means higher drag

images


w628.jpg


It is self evident in this picture the F-16 is much thinner than F-35, F-35 has also the empty weight of a F-15 , around 13000kg while F-16 is much lighter around 8 tonnes depending in the version.


All these new fifth generation aircraft then use more powerful engines than the previous generation aircraft that they are replacing because they are heavier due to S shaped air intake ducting and internal weapons bays, J-20 will need engines in the region of 16 tonnes to achieve similar TWR to J-11 since its normal take off is around 30000 kg, without it, it is highly underpowered and its fixed air intakes limited to low acceleration at speeds beyond Mach 1.6, without such engines J-20 is not better than previous generation fighters at best
ok
 
.
Guys. .. how iften already has this been discussed to death? When I'm back home from the holidays I will move all this stealth related stuff into a separate thread.

It is similar boring as these once constant discussion on the engine issues.
 
. .
Someone seems confused between Radar Cross Section and Aircraft Cross Section.
 
.
48861210737_baa49460be_o-jpg.583182

Could China's J-20 Stealth Fighter Become Their Very Own 'F-14 Tomcat'?

"As part of future Chinese carrier air wings, the J-20 most likely would perform beyond-visual-range air-superiority missions, firing heavy air-to-air missiles at distant targets much like the U.S. Navy’s now-retired F-14 fighter would have done."

by David Axe Follow @daxe on TwitterL

The Chinese military reportedly has decided to develop the air force’s J-20 stealth fighter into a sea-based variant to fly from the navy’s growing fleet of aircraft carriers.


The Central Military Commission, the People’s Liberation Army’s top decision-making body, favors the J-20 over the smaller FC-31 stealth fighter design, according to the Hong Kong South China Morning Post.

The Central Military Commission, the People’s Liberation Army’s top decision-making body, favors the J-20 over the smaller FC-31 stealth fighter design, according to the Hong Kong South China Morning Post.

“Operating from a carrier would certainly enable the J-20 to better perform what many analysts envision to be its two primary missions, long-range strike and long-range air superiority,” Robert Farley wrote at The Diplomat.

“Using the PL-15 [beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile], a carrier battle group with J-20s could push U.S. tanker and early warning aircraft deep into the Pacific, as well as threaten installations such as Guam,” Farley added. “Of course, any [Chinese navy] carrier leaving the friendly confines of the first island chain [beyond Japan and The Philippines] would become extraordinarily vulnerable to attacks from U.S. submarines and aircraft.”

According to Farley, Chinese planners also worry about the cost of developing a second stealth fighter in addition to the J-20. “An economic downturn will starve the service of resources,” Farley pointed out.

A carrier-based J-20 partially would replace the J-15, China’s first carrier fighter.


The J-15 is a clone of Russia's Su-33 naval fighter. Outwardly, the fighter has a lot in common with U.S., French and British carrier planes. "The J-15 has folding wings, strengthened landing gear, a tailhook under a shortened tail stinger, two-piece slotted flaps, canards and a retractable inflight-refueling probe on the left side of the nose," the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency explained in a January 2019 report.

The non-stealthy J-15 weighs 17 tons while empty and can launch via the ramp on the bow of China’s first two carriers, which lack catapults. But the ramp-launch method limits the J-15 to around 30 tons maximum weight, translating into a modest weapons load. The J-15 reportedly also is unreliable and accident-prone.

The J-20 weighs 21 tons without fuel and weapons and up to 40 tons with them.

“The J-20 would be big for a carrier-based fighter, but certainly not the largest that has ever flown,” Farley wrote. “The Grumman F-14 had a slightly higher take-off weight, although it was a bit shorter. The A-5 Vigilante, which operated from U.S. carriers in the 1960s, was slightly longer but somewhat lighter.”

The Chinese stealth fighter likely will require a catapult for launch from a carrier. The U.S. Navy's own carriers use steam catapults to launch aircraft weighing as much as 50 tons. The Chinese navy could commission its first catapult-equipped aircraft carrier in 2022, according to the May 2019 edition of the U.S. Defense Department’s annual report on Chinese military developments.

“China began construction of its second domestically built aircraft carrier in 2018, which will likely be larger and fitted with a catapult launch system,” the DIA noted. “This design will enable it to support additional fighter aircraft, fixed-wing early-warning aircraft, and more rapid flight operations. China’s second domestically built carrier is projected to be operational by 2022.”

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ghter-become-their-very-own-f-14-tomcat-86831

48860550273_35da5b6a71_o-jpg.583180





48861210342_fb549b971b_o-jpg.583181
 

Attachments

  • 48860550273_35da5b6a71_o.jpg
    48860550273_35da5b6a71_o.jpg
    161.9 KB · Views: 1,567
  • 48861210342_fb549b971b_o.jpg
    48861210342_fb549b971b_o.jpg
    199.3 KB · Views: 1,572
  • 48861210737_baa49460be_o.jpg
    48861210737_baa49460be_o.jpg
    224.4 KB · Views: 1,547
Last edited:
.
48861210737_baa49460be_o-jpg.583182

Could China's J-20 Stealth Fighter Become Their Very Own 'F-14 Tomcat'?

"As part of future Chinese carrier air wings, the J-20 most likely would perform beyond-visual-range air-superiority missions, firing heavy air-to-air missiles at distant targets much like the U.S. Navy’s now-retired F-14 fighter would have done."

by David Axe Follow @daxe on TwitterL

The Chinese military reportedly has decided to develop the air force’s J-20 stealth fighter into a sea-based variant to fly from the navy’s growing fleet of aircraft carriers.


The Central Military Commission, the People’s Liberation Army’s top decision-making body, favors the J-20 over the smaller FC-31 stealth fighter design, according to the Hong Kong South China Morning Post.

The Central Military Commission, the People’s Liberation Army’s top decision-making body, favors the J-20 over the smaller FC-31 stealth fighter design, according to the Hong Kong South China Morning Post.

“Operating from a carrier would certainly enable the J-20 to better perform what many analysts envision to be its two primary missions, long-range strike and long-range air superiority,” Robert Farley wrote at The Diplomat.

“Using the PL-15 [beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile], a carrier battle group with J-20s could push U.S. tanker and early warning aircraft deep into the Pacific, as well as threaten installations such as Guam,” Farley added. “Of course, any [Chinese navy] carrier leaving the friendly confines of the first island chain [beyond Japan and The Philippines] would become extraordinarily vulnerable to attacks from U.S. submarines and aircraft.”

According to Farley, Chinese planners also worry about the cost of developing a second stealth fighter in addition to the J-20. “An economic downturn will starve the service of resources,” Farley pointed out.

A carrier-based J-20 partially would replace the J-15, China’s first carrier fighter.


The J-15 is a clone of Russia's Su-33 naval fighter. Outwardly, the fighter has a lot in common with U.S., French and British carrier planes. "The J-15 has folding wings, strengthened landing gear, a tailhook under a shortened tail stinger, two-piece slotted flaps, canards and a retractable inflight-refueling probe on the left side of the nose," the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency explained in a January 2019 report.

The non-stealthy J-15 weighs 17 tons while empty and can launch via the ramp on the bow of China’s first two carriers, which lack catapults. But the ramp-launch method limits the J-15 to around 30 tons maximum weight, translating into a modest weapons load. The J-15 reportedly also is unreliable and accident-prone.

The J-20 weighs 21 tons without fuel and weapons and up to 40 tons with them.

“The J-20 would be big for a carrier-based fighter, but certainly not the largest that has ever flown,” Farley wrote. “The Grumman F-14 had a slightly higher take-off weight, although it was a bit shorter. The A-5 Vigilante, which operated from U.S. carriers in the 1960s, was slightly longer but somewhat lighter.”

The Chinese stealth fighter likely will require a catapult for launch from a carrier. The U.S. Navy's own carriers use steam catapults to launch aircraft weighing as much as 50 tons. The Chinese navy could commission its first catapult-equipped aircraft carrier in 2022, according to the May 2019 edition of the U.S. Defense Department’s annual report on Chinese military developments.

“China began construction of its second domestically built aircraft carrier in 2018, which will likely be larger and fitted with a catapult launch system,” the DIA noted. “This design will enable it to support additional fighter aircraft, fixed-wing early-warning aircraft, and more rapid flight operations. China’s second domestically built carrier is projected to be operational by 2022.”

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ghter-become-their-very-own-f-14-tomcat-86831

48860550273_35da5b6a71_o-jpg.583180





48861210342_fb549b971b_o-jpg.583181
Since when did David Axe and the National Interest become a reliable source for J-20 (or Chinese weapons in general) analysis?
 
.
Since when did David Axe and the National Interest become a reliable source for J-20 (or Chinese weapons in general) analysis?


Enem more laughable when being based on a report from Minnie Chan :blink::laugh:
 
.

Latest posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom