Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[siegecrossbow]

Fine .. that fit's perfectly. Just give a bit more time and I come up with an estimation ...



based on Henry K.'s old list from mid 2017.

View attachment 436694

Hmm looks like I should also give Henri K a lot of credit on the post at sinodefence. The true co-authors of the table are actually German and French! I doubt anyone in China could guess that.

 

[Figaro]

Hmm looks like I should also give Henri K a lot of credit on the post at sinodefence. The true co-authors of the table are actually German and French! I doubt anyone in China could guess that.

Henri is not Chinese? I always thought he was an expat living in Paris

 

[english_man]

Henri is not Chinese? I always thought he was an expat living in Paris

I seem to remember Henri.K saying he is a French person, who had lived in China for sometime?

 

[Deino]

Via Henry K.

 

[52051]

Congrats to Yang Wei, the J-20 chief designer, he is just be elected as fellow of China academy of sciences, as well as standing memeber of China central committe early this year.

So now Yang Wei is not only the highest rank official in AVIC and but also hold the only active fellowship of China academy of sciences in AVIC as well.

This suggesting the CCP and PLAAF are pleased with his work in J-20 and such promotion will give him all the power needed to conduct his future work without external interven.

 

[Martian2]

China's J-20 doesn't need F-35 temperature and humidity control hangar.

The American F-22 and B-2 are known as "hangar queens," because they require specialized temperature and humidity-control hangars to protect their stealth coatings. The reapplication of a stealth coating is laborious and time-consuming.

The F-35 is also a hangar queen that requires temperature and humidity control, because it has delicate electronics.

How To Supply Power And Air For The F-35 | Aviation Pros (June 27, 2013)
"With the F-35’s multiple, complex on-board electronic systems, the PCA requirements are very difficult to provide for the F-35. Not too hot … not too cold … it has to be very dry air and at a higher pressure than normal commercial PCA requirements."
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The photograph of a J-20 in front of a regular hangar suggests the J-20 does not require temperature or humidity control. This is important, because the J-20 should have quick turnaround times to permit more airborne hours.

China hails its fifth generation J-20 stealth jet fighter | Asia Times (November 20, 2017)

"The hangar in the background of the above photo has also piqued intense interest: It appears that J-20s can be parked in an ordinary hangar rather than one with constant temperature and humidity, while the US Air Force’s multirole F-35 Lightning II fighters are very expensive to maintain as they must be kept in a highly regulated environment to protect their ultra-delicate stealth coatings.

This means J-20s are more economical and easier to manage and can respond to emergencies more quickly than F-35s, noted an observer." (see second photograph below)

 

[gambit]

The American F-22 and B-2 are known as "hangar queens," because they require specialized temperature and humidity-control hangars to protect their stealth coatings. The reapplication of a stealth coating is laborious and time-consuming.

Wrong.

This is just another of your feeble attempt to appear knowledgeable when you are anything but.

In aviation maintenance, the phrase 'hangar queen' is used to denote an aircraft that has been off flight status for at least 30 days. Further, such an aircraft is usually used for cannibalization purposes, not necessarily because of parts shortages, but quite often because of parts availability. There is a difference. You can either order a part and wait for it, or you can just go to the hangar queen, remove the part you need, make a record of what you did, and use the part.

Where does this practice occurs ? In what is called a 'Red Ball' where the jet is all spooled up but encounter a problem. The pilot will radio in the problem, and maintenance will send a truck, with a crew, and try to fix the problem without moving the pilot to a back up jet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_ball

Term used by the US Air Force, typically on the flight line, to identify supply or service requests that are needed urgently to avoid mission failure, and thus given highest priority.

http://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/622830/cut-training-keeps-maintenance-mission-moving/

Red ball is a term used when an aircraft is about to launch and the crew chief finds something wrong. If possible, the crew chief fixes the issue immediately to ensure the mission can continue.

A hangar queen jet is often the most expedient source for quickly removable part, like a cockpit indicator for something, that maintenance can use for a 'red ball'.

So you are saying it takes more than 30 days to perform those specialized procedures on the B-2 and F-22 ? I would love to see those non-Chinese and non-Russian sources that says so.

You should know better than to try something like this with me around to debunk you.

 

[Martian2]

It is not trivial. You are misleading the readers as to the real context of the phrase. In your interpretation, you give an impression that is patently untrue to those who have experience in the subject.


What is 'lengthy' is relative. But when you used a phrase that is well known in the aviation community to denote the worst condition an aircraft can be, you are being dishonest. But then again, that much is known on this forum about you.


Yes it does. Because each time duration affects planning, which affects the fully mission capable ( FMC ) rate, and so on and on about other subjects that you do not know about.


Speculative at best.


Yeah...This is like when you -- many yrs ago -- cited Rachel Maddow on how the F-22's low radar observability can be affected by rain. Until a picture of an F-22 being washed came out.

That's great if the F-22 is no longer technically a "hangar queen" because it doesn't require 30 days for maintenance. Nevertheless, the F-22 stealth coating still requires a humidity and temperature control hangar for the reapplication of its stealth coating. Shaving a few days off the "hangar queen" title does not change the F-22's relative disadvantage against the J-20, which can use a normal hangar.
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F-22, Decried as 'Hangar Queen,' Gets 1st Combat Mission | Law 360 (September 23, 2014)

"Law360, New York (September 23, 2014, 7:14 PM EDT) -- The Air Force's advanced F-22 fighter jet, decried by critics such as Sen. John McCain as being a 'hangar queen' that didn't contribute much to America's wars despite a $65 billion acquisition investment, was used to strike ground targets in Syria in its first ever combat mission, the Department of Defense said on Tuesday.

The F-22 program became a poster child for inefficient acquisition after Secretary of Defense Robert Gates engaged in a protracted congressional lobbying effort to cancel the plane, which he called a Cold War relic that was too expensive and too narrowly specialized for the DOD's current needs. Gates' most vocal ally was McCain, who called the high-maintenance aircraft an 'expensive, corroding hangar queen' that contributed little to America's national defense, during a 2011 speech."

 

[samsara]

Via Henry K.

View attachment 438017

Seeing this picture in limelight in many places.

Would any one please elaborate the significance of this picture? What does it imply indeed... about manoeuvrability etc?

 

[Deino]

Seeing this picture in limelight in many places.

Would any one please elaborate the significance of this picture? What does it imply indeed... about manoeuvrability etc?

As far as I know there is none, just a nice image that wasn't not posted before ... and in the end it came out it has a psed background.

 

[gambit]

I'm trying to make the substantive argument that the J-20 has an operational advantage over the F-22/F-35/B-2 due to less stringent maintenance requirements.

No, because of your lack of experience, ignorance, and arrogance, you have no substantive arguments.

Do you know the initials A G E ? No, it has nothing to how old you are. The initials stands for Aerospace Ground Equipment.

Here is the source for the F-35's AGE support...

http://aviationgroundequip.com/military/f-35-diesel-cart/

Do you see how portable they are ?

Next...If you had bothered to perform basic research for the keywords 'f-35 flightline', you would have found plenty of images where the F-35 is parked IN OPEN RAMP. You would also find that in some instances, the jet is parked under a covered shelter for some maintenance.

So when we take the portability of the jet's ground support equipment and how it can be parked outside the hangar even for maintenance issues, your claim that the J-20 has less stringent maintenance requirements is nothing but vapor.

Your source, which as usual you do not understand...

http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10943391/how-to-supply-power-and-air-for-the-f-35

...Is where the jet requires more in-depth maintenance, such as 'depot level' maintenance, of which the J-20 as the same levels.

Note this paragraph in your source...

The F-35 hangars also need to be multi-squadron ready. For instance, a Harrier squadron could occupy the F-35 hangar at some point. This aircraft, like most of the other legacy fighter aircraft, is based on 400 Hz power.

This facility is required to be multi platform support capable so that means it has to modify its equipment to supply the F-35's DC power system. That does not mean that every time an F-35 needs some maintenance, it has to go into this specialized hangar. I explained the three major levels of maintenance a long time ago. Can you find it ? Or were you asleep in class when I made that post ?

You want to cheer for your China and the J-20 ? Go for it and have fun. But if you are going to bring my country into the discussion and if you are wrong in ANY way, just as I have in the past, the consequence is that I will bury you with knowledge, facts, and the truth that no one, not even your friends, can save you from embarrassment to the silent readers out there.

 

[Deino]

Come on guys !! Leave out these personnel rants and baseless accusations and again to include Vietnam is plain stupid.

Anyway, what wonders me the most is that some immediately jump on tat wagon to assume the J-20 is not maintenance friendlier or better than the F-22 only since it was spotted in front of a hangar.

IMO plain stupid... since it tells nothing. Nothing on the stealth qualities, nothing on maintenance issues ...

 

[siegecrossbow]

I was under the impression that the special hangars for F-22s in Alaska are for the benefit of the crew since temperatures can get ridiculously low there. Working in subzero (Celsius) temperatures indoors violates U.S. workplace safety laws and is detrimental to the health of the workers. We've seen the Raptor operate in a variety of weather conditions (rain, snow, etc.) so I don't think that it reflects poorly on the plane for it to use special hangars.

Also keep in mind that the batch of J-20s show in the video footage were stationed in Western China, where the climate is relatively arid despite huge day/night temperature fluctuations. If J-20s are operated from non-special hangars in South/East Chinese airbases then we can conclude that it is hardened against corrosion from salt/moisture.

 

[SingaporeGuy]

its pointless to compare f22 vs j20 since there are so many unknown variables.

But china better make use of the j20's advantages to fully dominate the f22's weaknesses even though a china-usa air war is not possible at the moment but possible before 2049 when taiwan has to be forcefully reunited.

Its more likely that China will square off against Japan's F35s in any near future air war.

and of course, if J-20 cannot beat F-35/F-22, its always better to focus on alternative winning formulas like air defense submarines etc

Just like how DF21D is made to make the american carriers useless etc.

Obviously no chinese general would send the J-20s to fight against F-35/F-22. J-20s should be used against air tankers, surveillance/EW planes, non stealth fighter jets and command planes.

The F-22/F-35s should only be matched against chinese long range cruise missiles.

 

[samsara]

its pointless to compare f22 vs j20 since there are so many unknown variables.

But china better make use of the j20's advantages to fully dominate the f22's weaknesses even though a china-usa air war is not possible at the moment but possible before 2049 when taiwan has to be forcefully reunited.

Its more likely that China will square off against Japan's F35s in any near future air war.

and of course, if J-20 cannot beat F-35/F-22, its always better to focus on alternative winning formulas like air defense submarines etc

Just like how DF21D is made to make the american carriers useless etc.

Obviously no chinese general would send the J-20s to fight against F-35/F-22. J-20s should be used against air tankers, surveillance/EW planes, non stealth fighter jets and command planes.

The F-22/F-35s should only be matched against chinese long range cruise missiles.

Wow, some lines you said out are so blunt... so "undiplomatic"... something that I prefer to stay away

it seems the Gambit persona was really successful in causing tumult here by its "gambit move" alias "sharp tongue" akin to the chess playing

I remember the term often used by those professional military experts to refer to those situations/strategies that you outlined as the ASYMMETRICAL WARFARE, and while being there, please add the other lower cost solutions similar to the A2/AD strategy, such as the drone swarm, as well. China should not and cannot compete with the U.S. on the extravaganza military spending in term of the nominal amount... in no way the Chinese efforts of "labouring" can compete with the "printing" acts as long as the said currency is still holding the WRC status... the very key factor why "rampant printing" can still hold its feet at the moment. Of course thing will be completely different the moment the WRC status is abolished.
It's a very closely entangled and interlocked relationship -- one exists because the other does: a strong military muscle serves as the very guardian of the WRC status (via the petro-dollar proxy) while the WRC status in turn is feeding rapaciously the hit men to safeguard it.
。。。