Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[gambit]

@wanglaokan , not really sure why so offensive and even more ...

1. if You really think I'm a Western spy and I try to gather secret information here from the PDF, You have indeed a problem.
2. Concerning these secrets about the J-20's engines: I'm sure these guys watching this conversation are simply laughing about that much of fantasy some are here producing !
3. what kind of warning ?? What kind of severe consequence ??? You cannot do anything and the Chinese secret service or whatever too... not even in this forum You can do anything.
4. like WebMaster said, all are open sources and as such not classified.

So keep cool and enjoy the discussion.

Deino

He is only trying to make himself feel important, as if he is doing something vital for China's national security. Let Walter Mitty be.

 

[WebMaster]

@wanglaokan This discussion stops here. Refrain from further off topic posts in this thread.

 

[Asoka]

If you keep seducing Chinese member to ask key info about J20 engine and configurations I thought will be classified, I will report to national security to shield this site forever. You have my Words. Then you can't get any Info from them then. i'm not saying you are a spy somethings like that, but the way you being a moderator are weird. The severe consequence you might have to bear is that Chinese members can't get access to his forum anymore.

Good one. I do find Deino's behavior inexplicable.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Very valid point.
I think It is not leaking as long as the materials used are from the open sources, and people making the comments are not within the establishment. Many documents and analysis like 刀口's recent piece about the J-20 must have passed the official scrutiny.

OK,OK, I finally agree that you know more than about the said missile then the PLA personals.

I share the same feelings as yours. I am not anti-West; In many's eyes we are apart of it - we live amongst them,have families and study and work here. However, like most of my friends I am anti Western MSM's BS talking about China.

You are speechless and answerless for me, give me the sources that so called your PLA personal claim that PL-15 has a range of 500 KM to back your claim
O

 

[Akasa]

You are speechless and answerless for me, give me the sources that so called your PLA personal claim that PL-15 has a range of 500 KM to back your claim
O

I think there has been a bit of a naming mix-up (understandable given the secrecy of the programs).

1. The original PL-15 is thought to be a BVRAAM comparable to later variants of the AIM-120. The range (according to US sources) should be approximately 200 km.

2. A new type of missile (which users have named "PL-15" for some reason) has been recently spotted on a J-16, which closely correlates to a quasi-ballistic air-to-air missile that was recently published in a feasibility study. Theoretically speaking, a 500 km range is not too far-fetched for a missile that makes use of a ballistic trajectory.

A lot of people are confusing the "original PL-15" (which is more or less a variant of the PL-12) with the new "PL-XX" ballistic air-to-air missile. The two missiles are unrelated. Hope this clears things up.

 

[Tiqiu]

since a few chaps are posting their fantasy

Respect and Be Respected.

NO, the first image shows a J-11B assigned to the 175. Brigade and the image below shows several MKK from the 18. Division .. completely different units.

If you knew the meaning of "金飞镖自由空战体系对抗等大型演习" that two of these my posted images were related to, then you should know what they mean.

ou are speechless and answerless for me, give me the sources that so called your PLA personal claim that PL-15 has a range of 500 KM to back your claim
O

Good, now i think you are clueless. First I put down my reasoning in that my original post concerning the said missile and J-20, then I pointed out that post number for you to look at subsequently, one other member even gave your the link for it. If CCTV, Yinzhuo and the pilots from the PLA Aviation School all mean nothing for you, then I can't see why I need talk to you.

 

[Asoka]

I think there has been a bit of a naming mix-up (understandable given the secrecy of the programs).

1. The original PL-15 is thought to be a BVRAAM comparable to later variants of the AIM-120. The range (according to US sources) should be approximately 200 km.
View attachment 358871

2. A new type of missile (which users have named "PL-15" for some reason) has been recently spotted on a J-16, which closely correlates to a quasi-ballistic air-to-air missile that was recently published in a feasibility study. Theoretically speaking, a 500 km range is not too far-fetched for a missile that makes use of a ballistic trajectory.
View attachment 358872

A lot of people are confusing the "original PL-15" (which is more or less a variant of the PL-12) with the new "PL-XX" ballistic air-to-air missile. The two missiles are unrelated. Hope this clears things up.

A modified version of DF-21D to target AWAC or oil tankers is possible if "someone" could continuously update the approximate position of the target plane to the missile, which then could adjust its course to intercept the target. The final course adjustment is made by the missile's onboard sensors. That would give the enemy AWACs and oil tankers no where to hide. It could even take out all other airborne assets, including fighters. Now, that's scary. Basically, the concept of an Air Force as we know it, is obsolete.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

A modified version of DF-21D to target AWAC or oil tankers is possible if "someone" could continuously update the approximate position of the target plane to the missile, which then could adjust its course to intercept the target. The final course adjustment is made by the missile's onboard sensors. That would give the enemy AWACs and oil tankers no where to hide. It could even take out all other airborne assets, including fighters. Now, that's scary. Basically, the concept of an Air Force as we know it, is obsolete.

The air force and navy in the future are just complementary to the space weapon and hypersonic missile.

That's why China basically has no open information about the DN-3 and DF-ZF, because their rank and confidentiality level are far beyond to that of the J-20, aircraft carrier, or even the nuclear sub.

 

[Akasa]

A modified version of DF-21D to target AWAC or oil tankers is possible if "someone" could continuously update the approximate position of the target plane to the missile, which then could adjust its course to intercept the target. The final course adjustment is made by the missile's onboard sensors. That would give the enemy AWACs and oil tankers no where to hide. It could even take out all other airborne assets, including fighters. Now, that's scary. Basically, the concept of an Air Force as we know it, is obsolete.

Midcourse guidance is provided by satellite while terminal homing is aided by a combination of an AESA seeker and ImIR (in the case of low-observability targets). Of course, there are certain measures to undermine these sort of weapons, but the increased range and speed certainly brings the BVR game to a new realm.

 

[Deino]

Respect and Be Respected.

Yes indeed, but I beg to differ between respect to a person and respect to an opinion. If a pupil at school tells me water is a metal and he would know better, since he/she has read something about in the internet, he/she repeatedly sticks to this false information regardless any arguments, experiments and other obvious facts, then I still respect - I need to - him or her as a person, I maybe even respect his or her persistence, but I clearly can dismiss his/her claims. So I do not need to respect this BS.

The same is here with some of these phantasies and there are indeed a few out: Trying to persuade us by blurred images that the WS-15 is operational since years is plain stupid, even more such hybrid-theories. Trying to tell us a certain engine has to be some sort of super-WS-XY only since a metal part is a bit different or the colour is more bluish, even if all nuts and bolts, the number of pedals and structure is the same is also an example.
There is NO, no way You can mate a functional nozzle of - say an AL-31 - on another engine's core - say WS-10 - to create a new secret super-engine. The nozzle is an integral part of an engine and not a plug&play-item. Why on all earth are all engines different ? Simply since they are optimised to a certain specific performance regime, a specific dynamic pressure, fuel consumption, thrust-performance, .... and so. If there would be some sort of ideal nozzle, that is even more scalable as some say, why then has the General Electric F404 a different nozzle to the GE F110? Why is the Pratt Whitney F100 different to an EJ-200 or a French M.88?? ... and for the same reason a WS-10 has a different nozzle to an AL-31 and You never can mix them. FACT.

BY the way, concerning RESPECT !! It's funny that You mention this to me while in the same way some special well known members here are openly racists, openly advocating disrespect to foreigners only since they are foreigners and even more they think they have the right to do so !! I just remember a certain thread were You were also taking part in this ...

If you knew the meaning of "金飞镖自由空战体系对抗等大型演习" that two of these my posted images were related to, then you should know what they mean.

Then You should clearly say what You mean: Indeed, the base or the exercise is correct, but why do You then say the "seed unit" ?? This is clearly wrong, since the Flankers are from an operational Division; the 18th FD. Sometimes I really have that arrogant feeling, that I know the PLAAF, its units and structure much better than some Chinese members here, which usually post any random image to prove anything completely out of context, only since the image is nice.

By the way, sometimes I really have the feeling - and the more I think about it, the more confident I am - that some here are only here to spread deliberately misinformation. Their constant re-postings of completely irrelevant, sometimes faked information is only to divert the Chinese public from the true facts.
That's exactly what I meant: if someone tries to tell us You can take an AL-31-nozzle and mate it on a WS-10's core, then it is exactly the same level of stupidity like calling water a metal.

Deino

 

[Tiqiu]

Midcourse guidance is provided by satellite while terminal homing is aided by a combination of an AESA seeker and ImIR (in the case of low-observability targets). Of course, there are certain measures to undermine these sort of weapons, but the increased range and speed certainly brings the BVR game to a new realm.

The focal -plane array of the PL-15 maybe similar to the one used by the PL-10 with 256*256 light sensing pixels at the focal plane.

@Deino
My bad if you felt that way. I remembered I only raised the point/fact that you didn't know our language and your analysis was fully based on the materials in Chinese(or translation) which were mostly sourced from the Chinese language website, and yet you were so assertive about your finding and called others fanboys. Please do give me the link of the insulting discussion you said i was part of it.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Respect and Be Respected.

If you knew the meaning of "金飞镖自由空战体系对抗等大型演习" that two of these my posted images were related to, then you should know what they mean.

Good, now i think you are clueless. First I put down my reasoning in that my original post concerning the said missile and J-20, then I pointed out that post number for you to look at subsequently, one other member even gave your the link for it. If CCTV, Yinzhuo and the pilots from the PLA Aviation School all mean nothing for you, then I can't see why I need talk to you.

I think @SinoSoldier clear thing up PL-15 is comparable to late version of AMRAAM with a range of 180 to 200 Km but PL-XX was tested on J-16 last month, thread is already running on PDF, that is confusing you, you are mixing PL-15 with new Chinese new missile that had been tested on J-16, pardon me if i hurts you brother

 

[Deino]

@Tiqiu

This thread has been not only closed but deleted. as such I cannot show it anymore.

If I am wrong in my accusation, I need to apologise - and I really do so - but these constant bashings from other certain members is IMO indeed open disrespect, racist and as such not tolerable.

Again, if I made a wrong accusation, I apologise.

Deino

 

[Asoka]

Yes indeed, but I beg to differ between respect to a person and respect to an opinion. If a pupil at school tells me water is a metal and he would know better, since he/she has read something about in the internet, he/she repeatedly sticks to this false information regardless any arguments, experiments and other obvious facts, then I still respect - I need to - him or her as a person, I maybe even respect his or her persistence, but I clearly can dismiss his/her claims. So I do not need to respect this BS.

The same is here with some of these phantasies and there are indeed a few out: Trying to persuade us by blurred images that the WS-15 is operational since years is plain stupid, even more such hybrid-theories. Trying to tell us a certain engine has to be some sort of super-WS-XY only since a metal part is a bit different or the colour is more bluish, even if all nuts and bolts, the number of pedals and structure is the same is also an example.
There is NO, no way You can mate a functional nozzle of - say an AL-31 - on another engine's core - say WS-10 - to create a new secret super-engine. The nozzle is an integral part of an engine and not a plug&play-item. Why on all earth are all engines different ? Simply since they are optimised to a certain specific performance regime, a specific dynamic pressure, fuel consumption, thrust-performance, .... and so. If there would be some sort of ideal nozzle, that is even more scalable as some say, why then has the General Electric F404 a different nozzle to the GE F110? Why is the Pratt Whitney F100 different to an EJ-200 or a French M.88?? ... and for the same reason a WS-10 has a different nozzle to an AL-31 and You never can mix them. FACT.

BY the way, concerning RESPECT !! It's funny that You mention this to me while in the same way some special well known members here are openly racists, openly advocating disrespect to foreigners only since they are foreigners and even more they think they have the right to do so !! I just remember a certain thread were You were also taking part in this ...



Then You should clearly say what You mean: Indeed, the base or the exercise is correct, but why do You then say the "seed unit" ?? This is clearly wrong, since the Flankers are from an operational Division; the 18th FD. Sometimes I really have that arrogant feeling, that I know the PLAAF, its units and structure much better than some Chinese members here, which usually post any random image to prove anything completely out of context, only since the image is nice.

By the way, sometimes I really have the feeling - and the more I think about it, the more confident I am - that some here are only here to spread deliberately misinformation. Their constant re-postings of completely irrelevant, sometimes faked information is only to divert the Chinese public from the true facts.
That's exactly what I meant: if someone tries to tell us You can take an AL-31-nozzle and mate it on a WS-10's core, then it is exactly the same level of stupidity like calling water a metal.

Deino

Now, you sound really silly, Deino. I was asking why the nozzle of WS-15 can't be looking SIMILAR EXTERNALLY to either WS-10A/B or AL-31FN, while internal mechanism is completely different, for example, like having TVC actuators inside.

Like car or any machine, outside may look similar, but inside could be completely different according to the requirements.

There is no natural laws that says NO two engines may have similar looking nozzles.

Midcourse guidance is provided by satellite while terminal homing is aided by a combination of an AESA seeker and ImIR (in the case of low-observability targets). Of course, there are certain measures to undermine these sort of weapons, but the increased range and speed certainly brings the BVR game to a new realm.

Now, we are talking about BV engagements of thousands of Km. You won't be able to see Ballistic missile coming on your AESA radar, since it flies way above your head, coming down almost vertically.

 

[Akasa]

Now, we are talking about BV engagements of thousands of Km. You won't be able to see Ballistic missile coming on your AESA radar, since it flies way above your head, coming down almost vertically.

You would. The missile, however fast, would still have a finite speed and it would be picked up by both IRST and radar as soon as it "reenters" the lower portion of the atmosphere.