Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[houshanghai]

Even the PAF pilot's (Sliapani...whatever..Do we have pilots named like this? lol) interview apparently gave an impression that he was testing J-10A. But there is some confusion in sources as well. While insiders like EagleHannan point to J-10B as PAF's primary requirement and presence of a test team at CFTE alongwith a Chinese one to evlaute J-10B as a reason for that. Huzhigeng point to the other side. I guess we'll know as the subsequent developments emerge to give a clear picture. But i would do like to ask a question. AL-31FN are not exclusively for PAF, Its is also reported that J-10B prototypes were tested with TVC AL-41 engines sold earlier to China by Russia. Since the current lot of AL-31FN is also TVC, there is a very high probability that these engines will land in both PLAAF and PAF's platforms. However, if PAF goes with J-10A with AL-31FN, then there must be a platform undergoing testing with a TVC engine as a design appraisal for TVC engine would be required for a platform which was orignally not ment to operate with TVC engine. Why AL-31FN would land in PLAAF platforms as well? because WS-10B testing will likely take a considerable time, point in case WS-13 on FC-1. Not to mention the subsequent developments to have a TVC nozzel. It seems logical that PLAAF will also move ahead with AL-31FN for the time being rather than wait for certification of WS-10B

J10B (WS10B) is real finalization version and J10B (AL31FN) is only a passing version.All WS10B series or AL31FN will have TVC version. dont know whether PAF will choose to use TVC on FC20.But according to CDF,this batch of TVC version AL31FNs have not signed the contract .
there is no doubt that J10A is more mature and cheaper than J10B.but you know J10B have many J20's new techniques .however j10A havet.
BTW,huzigeng's words are also not absolutely right.maybe PAF will receive J10B version soon and EagleHannan is right . Who knows? only time will show who is right......

 

[fatman17]

J10B (WS10B) is real finalization version and J10B (AL31FN) is only a passing version.All WS10B series or AL31FN will have TVC version. dont know whether PAF will choose to use TVC on FC20.But according to CDF,this batch of TVC version AL31FNs have not signed the contract .
there is no doubt that J10A is more mature and cheaper than J10B.but you know J10B have many J20's new techniques .however j10A havet.
BTW,huzigeng's words are also not absolutely right.maybe PAF will receive J10B version soon and EagleHannan is right . Who knows? only time will show who is right......

but not with the russian engine!

 

[cloneman]

but not with the russian engine!

The engine is a complicated issue.it's hard to say the J-10B will not use the AL-31fn,it's a quantity problem that the current FWS-10s production capacity is not big enough to feed the needs. The Niming factory just reached 100 copies of the FWS-10 seriers capacity in 2010 by the official AVIC newspaper report,in 2009 and 2010 they needed to fit the FWS-10s on:
1.around 50 J-11Bs that had no engines and sat on the SAC airfield for two years due to the FWS-10 issue on 2007/2008
2.every year 40 new J-11Bs produced by the SAC and soon 10 copies of the J-15 for the navy
So there's no FWS-10s left for the J-10s which has to rely on the AL-31FN.The situation can only change until 2014 when the second FWS-10 production line is set and reach a 200+ copies capacity.The Niming factory still need time to train the workers making them experenced.Untill 2014 we can talk to fit the FWS-10s massivelly on the J-10s and export it.What will happen to the FWS-10 mostlikely will be:
1.In 2012 a 110 copies capacity reached to fit on 50 J-11s and J-15,40 J-10A and J-10B in CAC have to rely on the AL-31FN
2.In 2013 a 140 copies capactity reached,110 for the J-11s and j-15,rest 30 for the J-10s
3.In 2014 a new line is set to reach 220 copies,110 for the J-11s and J-15,50 for the J-10Bs and the rest to replace the AL-31FN that fitted in the J-10As since 2004 which will need the MLU during the time frame.

 

[houshanghai]

 

[PakShaheen79]

^ J-10B is turning into a mature platform now. It is good sign that after one crash of J-10 in 1990's all Chinese prototype proved that China has moved forward considerably in aerodynamics and FBW systems. Mastering engine must be next big target!

 

[rcrmj]

^ J-10B is turning into a mature platform now. It is good sign that after one crash of J-10 in 1990's all Chinese prototype proved that China has moved forward considerably in aerodynamics and FBW systems. Mastering engine must be next big target!

hope within few years we can deal with our chronic 'heart' problem.

 

[S10]

WS-10 program has been hit with one obstacle after another, but overall its future is quite bright. I will give a brief timeline of the program below:

1982: WS-6 cancelled due to technical difficulties and political considerations (leaders wanted to buy from U.S.), leaving China without any modern turbofan engine program.

1987: WS-10 program started, based on American CFM56 (F108) core design.

1987-1992: Development was lagging behind schedule, as China lacked technical expertise and United States withdrew assistance after Tianamen Square Incident.

1992-2000: Help was sought from Russia, and elements of AL-31F was borrowed. At the same time period, increased military spending on R&D as well as foreign help provided a boost to progress.

2002: First trial of the prototype engine, on a J-11A test bed.

2005: Engine was certified for production, and was produced in small numbers for trial use.

2007: Program went into redesign and production briefly ceased after trials revealed major problems, including a crash of J-11B aircraft that killed the pilot.

2009: Further quality control problems were found, leading to several officials being fired/reprimanded.

2010: Second production batch began entering service, with better reliability and performance. J-11B goes into mass production.

2011: First trial on J-10B.

Currently, quality with the engine is no longer a problem. The engine is actually outperforming AL-31F. Now the biggest hurdle to overcome is to increase rate of production. The program spanned nearly two decades, but when it's all said and done, China will no longer need to rely on foreign suppliers.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Many people actually don't have the idea that there was no problem with WS-10 series engine design as much as it was with manufacturing and quality control which is now being resolved hence the rate of production is kicking up as well.

 

[MastanKhan]

Many people actually don't have the idea that there was no problem with WS-10 series engine design as much as it was with manufacturing and quality control which is now being resolved hence the rate of production is kicking up as well.

Hi,

Seems like you are not into engines-----there is a simple basic principal for internal combustion gasoline engines---if you have compression, a spark and fuel, the engine will fire---holds true fo diesel as well turbine engines as well---.

There is never ever a problem with an engine ever in design---because in cannot be produced with an improper design-----someone has to be an idiot to manufacture one---and there are no idiots in the world of engine design and manufacture---it is always the critical parts which are exposed to extremely high stresses and performance and the lack of experience and lack of knowledge of their production in the past, a lack of knowledge of material composition creates major problems that may haunt the project for years till the right combinations are met.

It is a breakdown of those critical parts that creates issues- Otherwise an engine is an engine is an engine---.

Now you can run this engine at 60 70 % of its power and you will never have any problem with it----but when you want to go to 100%, that is where the bullsh-it hits the fan-------.

I believe in one of my earlier posts I had mentioned about reverse engineering----you can only reverse engineer so much----for the critical parts---you need insider information----that is where deception comes into force---.

The manufacturer knows that its tech maybe stolen---and reverse engineered----and the company doing it would need information about the make of the critical components---and persistance will payoff---someone will sell off the information----so they may create their own leak---like about the materials used in the compressor blades---.

As they are the designers---they have known that a certain composition will work for a limited number of hours at 100% power out put for say 400 hours engine life---but to have it go for 2000 hours, the composition was slightly changed by them during their research----.

In their best interest---they may leak out the composition of a poorer quality compressor---which may literally put the project back for another 2-3 years or more and sometimes it may totally fail---because of the cost overruns---. So, by intentionally leaking information, they have kept the process in check and under time control----.

The problem over here is that these critical components---their design and composition looks perfect on the paper and computer.


Could there be a similiar deception in case of the kaveri engine or the diesel engine for the indian tank----. It is up for debate.

 

[isi admirer]

WS-10 program has been hit with one obstacle after another, but overall its future is quite bright. I will give a brief timeline of the program below:

1982: WS-6 cancelled due to technical difficulties and political considerations (leaders wanted to buy from U.S.), leaving China without any modern turbofan engine program.

1987: WS-10 program started, based on American CFM56 (F108) core design.

1987-1992: Development was lagging behind schedule, as China lacked technical expertise and United States withdrew assistance after Tianamen Square Incident.

1992-2000: Help was sought from Russia, and elements of AL-31F was borrowed. At the same time period, increased military spending on R&D as well as foreign help provided a boost to progress.

2002: First trial of the prototype engine, on a J-11A test bed.

2005: Engine was certified for production, and was produced in small numbers for trial use.

2007: Program went into redesign and production briefly ceased after trials revealed major problems, including a crash of J-11B aircraft that killed the pilot.

2009: Further quality control problems were found, leading to several officials being fired/reprimanded.

2010: Second production batch began entering service, with better reliability and performance. J-11B goes into mass production.

2011: First trial on J-10B.

Currently, quality with the engine is no longer a problem. The engine is actually outperforming AL-31F. Now the biggest hurdle to overcome is to increase rate of production. The program spanned nearly two decades, but when it's all said and done, China will no longer need to rely on foreign suppliers.

this is correct that china is not yet mastered in making engines bt you also know that f22 is also facing some problems bt if if china wants to be a super power he had to go on tne way of self dependance

 

[Secur]

this is correct that china is not yet mastered in making engines bt you also know that f22 is also facing some problems bt if if china wants to be a super power he had to go on tne way of self dependance

It has acheived self dependence ... Name me a weapon that China cant/isn't building at the moment ... China has more than sufficient experience in making engines ... It has began work on WS13 and WS15 after mastering WS10 .... What more do you want ?

 

[MastanKhan]

this is correct that china is not yet mastered in making engines bt you also know that f22 is also facing some problems bt if if china wants to be a super power he had to go on tne way of self dependance

Hi,

You are right---the F 22 is also facing problems. Is there anyone who doesn't face problems in life. Does Paris Hilton faces problems in life---she does---doesn't she.

A baby starts walking and falls---a full grown man trips over and falls----are these incidences the same----they are similiar---. The grown man fell because he did not see or realize the obstruction---the baby fell because it has not yet learnt to stand on its own yet.

 

[monitor]

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Self deleted

 

[Mani2020]

This is EF-2000 ... not J-10
See MFD on Right side

my bad can you delete this post