Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[j20blackdragon]

There was a report on 100 additional AL-31 of unspecific sort during Zhuhai ... quite interesting, it was only mentioned briefly and kept very low. Concerning the AL-31FN for the J-10B/C, the number of aircraft fits quite nicely to the number of FN series 3 delivered. It will however be interesting to notice, what happens to batch 03 ... and concerning the engines for the J-20; I'm sure that these are covered - similar to once the very first FN-contract - under a separate , still secret deal. But that's just my opinion.

Deino

There are 499 verifiable AL-31FN engines. Final purchase was in 2011.

I'm revising my J-10 numbers using AL-31FN.

huitong can confirm around 100 J-10 produced in batch 01-03.

"Around 100 may have been produced by 2006 (01-03 batch, S/N 50x5x, 10x4x, 10x3x, 10x2x, 20x0x, 73x5x)."
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html

J-10 Batch 01: 24
J-10 Batch 02: 40
J-10 Batch 03: 40
J-10A Batch 04: 40
J-10A Batch 05: 40
J-10A Batch 06: 40
J-10A Batch 07: 40

J-10S Batch 01: ??
J-10S Batch 02: 40
J-10S Batch 03: 40

J-10B Batch 01: 53
J-10C Batch 02: 49

446+ J-10 total.

I'll include photographic evidence that J-10A and J-10S batches are always 40 aircraft each. The first batch is sometimes smaller.

Next, we need to consider how unreliable Russian engines are. India can confirm (for AL-31FP) 69 engines failures in four years.

"In all, there are 69 instances of engine failure in the last four years, the minister said."
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...ued-by-engine-troubles,-low-availability.html

If we throw in a dozen J-20, that's another 24 engines used up.

I don't believe the AL-31FM2 even exists. Why has there been no reports of the Su-34 receiving this engine?

The J-10 produced over a decade ago will require replacement engines by now. The service life of the early AL-31FN is how many hours?

This whole thing is a mystery.

 

[Deino]

I think you got misinformed on this one. 2.49 is still the batch2 production J-10B, not J-10c. So far a total number of 108 J-10B were produced in 2 batches ( 1-01 to 1-54 and 2-.01 to 2-54) and deployed to 6 regiments. The first production J-10C deployed was reported back in Jan.

Sorry, but I really do not understand why You call these J-10C to be still J-10B??? All - including some of my biggest critics - agree that so all batch 02 aircraft are J-10C.
IMO the best proof is the new serial number, the prototype got: 1051

Even more all sources speak of 55 batch 01 J-10B and the final two were the only ones using the WS-10B.
Otherwise concerning these 6 regiments I would be happy if You have more details.
Anyway, by

There are 499 verifiable AL-31FN engines. Final purchase was in 2011.

I'm revising my J-10 numbers using AL-31FN.

....

J-10 Batch 01: 24
J-10 Batch 02: 40
J-10 Batch 03: 40
J-10A Batch 04: 40
J-10A Batch 05: 40
J-10A Batch 06: 40
J-10A Batch 07: 40

J-10S Batch 01: ??
J-10S Batch 02: 40
J-10S Batch 03: 40

J-10B Batch 01: 53
J-10C Batch 02: 49

446+ J-10 total.

I'll include photographic evidence that J-10A and J-10S batches are always 40 aircraft each. The first batch is sometimes smaller.....

I feel honoured that You use my list I posted here some long, long time ago.

 

[grey boy 2]

New ultra-high performance concrete hangars with compression strength up to 400 MPa. (终于告别大凉棚了)

 

[帅的一匹]

The Russian life span of AL31 has been increased from 900 hours to 1500 hours by Chinese overhaul. Save huge amount of money. Our overhaul facility can extend the life span by applying Recycle the super alloy turbin blade/power metallurgy turbine disk and automatic micro arc plasma welding tech.

even Russia can't do it.

 

[Tiqiu]

Even more all sources speak of 55 batch 01 J-10B and the final two were the only ones using the WS-10B.

Thanks for pointing it out. Some big shrimps said 54 jets per batch were produced for batch1 and batch 2, so I thought the total numbers counting should start from 1-01 till 1-54. In light of what you said about 55, I searched again and found the 1-00 image, so if the number ends at 1-53 than my claim holds, otherwise you are right.

Sorry, but I really do not understand why You call these J-10C to be still J-10B??? All - including some of my biggest critics - agree that so all batch 02 aircraft are J-10C.
IMO the best proof is the new serial number, the prototype got: 1051

I think much of the confusion about which is which was caused by the lacking of official coverage of J-10C including its images. But I believed what has been claimed by some credible big shrimps that "Black(nozzle) is B and White(nozzle) is C". Those minor changes of the profiles of the MAW and Antennas does not suffice J-10B becoming J-10C, but changing the engine to a more powerful one does. Keep in mind that Chengdu Aircraft Corporation has stated some J-20's technology will be adopted into the producing of J-10, and Changes can be made without having to wait the start of next batch. So I think the new structurally reinforced J-10C with a more powerful AESA will require a new powerful engine than those Black-Nozzle engines(assuming they are all AL31FN). As such someone posted up this J-10 nameplate displayed at the PLA Air Force Aviation University recently,suggesting J10A/B/C are powered by AL-31FN/WS-10A/WS-10B, with thrust of 122.58KN/132KN/155KN respectively.
View attachment 359367

It appears that many people made conclusion and inferential conclusion about J-10C based on the 1035 J-10 using WS10 series engine. 1035 is the Number 5 of the prototype J10-B(01 to 05 on yellow skin/1031 to 1035 on Army paint), which is the only out the 5 prototype J-10B putting on a WS-10 engine for some sort of testing . The prototype J-10C are also five starting from 1051 to 1055.

Look below some of the prototype J-10B

View attachment 359383

 

[Tiqiu]

@Deino The last five images for the prototype J-10B should be as follows. Please help editing it for me.Thanks

 

[帅的一匹]

What happens with prototype 1035? Why hasn't J10c mounted with WS10x? It's weird.

 

[Tiqiu]

Some small changes have been made for J-10B even they were made in the same batch2.

I wonder if someone has noticed, there are a few differences between 2-01 and 2-07 pointed out by some big shrimps.

So the MAW is gone after the 2-07

 

[Deino]

New ultra-high performance concrete hangars with compression strength up to 400 MPa. (终于告别大凉棚了)

... and right a moment later it shows to be a base of the 12. Fighter Division; most likely at Qihe; however it could also be Wendeng as there are reports about a regiment converted to J-10A there.

Does anyone know more ?

.... In light of what you said about 55, I searched again and found the 1-00 image,...

That image is a PS to hide the true identity. As so often esp. the second two digits are psed. The very first serial J-10B was 1-01. There is no 1-00.

I think much of the confusion about which is which was caused by the lacking of official coverage of J-10C including its images. But I believed what has been claimed by some credible big shrimps that "Black(nozzle) is B and White(nozzle) is C". Those minor changes of the profiles of the MAW and Antennas does not suffice J-10B becoming J-10C, but changing the engine to a more powerful one does. Keep in mind that Chengdu Aircraft Corporation has stated some J-20's technology will be adopted into the producing of J-10, and Changes can be made without having to wait the start of next batch. So I think the new structurally reinforced J-10C with a more powerful AESA will require a new powerful engine than those Black-Nozzle engines(assuming they are all AL31FN). As such someone posted up this J-10 nameplate displayed at the PLA Air Force Aviation University recently,suggesting J10A/B/C are powered by AL-31FN/WS-10A/WS-10B, with thrust of 122.58KN/132KN/155KN respectively.
View attachment 359367

This black nozzle/white nozzle might simple be a change in material or the different time of operations, but none of these are WS-10 ! ... and by the way this nameplate only "suggests" that the J-10 can be fitted, that does not mean there are any operationally.

Otherwise You really need to show me one of these WS-10-powered J-10C. Here is a comparison; plain and simple:

It appears that many people made conclusion and inferential conclusion about J-10C based on the 1035 J-10 using WS10 series engine. 1035 is the Number 5 of the prototype J10-B(01 to 05 on yellow skin/1031 to 1035 on Army paint), which is the only out the 5 prototype J-10B putting on a WS-10 engine for some sort of testing . The prototype J-10C are also five starting from 1051 to 1055.

YES, but like You said, only J-10B-prototype (as well as J-10A prototype 1004) were test-wise using the WS-10. All other J-10B and C build so far are AL-31FN-powered; that's a fact.

Some small changes have been made for J-10B even they were made in the same batch2.
I wonder if someone has noticed, there are a few differences between 2-01 and 2-07 pointed out by some big shrimps.
So the MAW is gone after the 2-07

YES, but that's was long known ... it was even gone right after 2-02 even if the images of 202 are too blurred !

Here is 2-03:

Therefore again, please explain what's a J-10B and a J-10C per Your definition: Following the reports that are IMO most widely accepted this is the definition I hold:

 

[Tiqiu]

YES, but like You said, only J-10B-prototype (as well as J-10A prototype 1004) were test-wise using the WS-10. All other J-10B and C build so far are AL-31FN-powered; that's a fact.

Good.So we all agree that only one prototype J-10B (1035) and one prototype J-10A (1004) were fitted with WS-10.

Here are the images of prototype J-10B from both sides. Note there is an antenna besides the flashing light on its vertical tail.

Now look at these images of alleged prototype and production J-10C circulated since Jan. below to observe the differences. It's very clear that many J-10C with WS-10 were produced. None of those yellow J-10B with black nozzle which were just posted few days ago are J-10C.

 

[Deino]

Good.So we all agree that only one prototype J-10B (1035) and one prototype J-10A (1004) were fitted with WS-10.

Here are the images of prototype J-10B from both sides. Note there is an antenna besides the flashing light on its vertical tail.

YES ... in the same way no. 2-01 & 2-02 both still had these RWRs. I don't know, why they were later deleted and most likely replaced by something new. But fact is: all but the prototypes and these very first serial batch 2 aircraft lack them.

Now look at these images of alleged prototype and production J-10C circulated since Jan. below to observe the differences. It's very clear that many J-10C with WS-10 were produced. None of those yellow J-10B with black nozzle which were just posted few days ago are J-10C.View attachment 359489
....

Honestly ... they all show the same or at least one of only two WS-10-powered J-10B !!

Anyway, You still owe me an explanation, on how You differ between a B and C and even more since all members here agree that they are B - since they have the RWRs - and not C? It seems to me that a J-10C has to use the WS-10 and a B still uses the AL-31FN or am I wrong ??

Believe me, there are so far NO, really NO serial WS-10-powered J-10C ... not a single on.

Ask @cirr or @星海军事 ... I'm really sure with my definition posted above to differ between a B and a C.


Deino

 

[Tiqiu]

YES ... in the same way no. 2-01 & 2-02 both still had these RWRs. I don't know, why they were later deleted and most likely replaced by something new. But fact is: all but the prototypes and these very first serial batch 2 aircraft lack them.





Honestly ... they all show the same or at least one of only two WS-10-powered J-10B !!

Anyway, You still owe me an explanation, on how You differ between a B and C and even more since all members here agree that they are B - since they have the RWRs - and not C? It seems to me that a J-10C has to use the WS-10 and a B still uses the AL-31FN or am I wrong ??

Believe me, there are so far NO, really NO serial WS-10-powered J-10C ... not a single on.

Ask @cirr or @星海军事 ... I'm really sure with my definition posted above to differ between a B and a C.


Deino

Let's put it on record on PDF
All J-10 ( non J-10A) with black nozzle are J-10B;
All J-10 ( non J-10A) with white nozzle are J-10C.
( except prototype 1035 J-10B)

One Chinese member here already posted the image of that huge J-10 billboard with WS-10X engine for the Zhuaihai show. It was reported the J-10C would be de-classified by its static display at the show, making it one of the two highlights (the J-20 demo flight being another one) for the event. Somehow it was cancelled. Can a Static display of the J-10B create highlight for the Zhuhai show?

As such, none of those J-10 contained in your post is J-10C; they are all J-10B.

 

[Deino]

Let's put it on record on PDF
All J-10 ( non J-10A) with black nozzle are J-10B;
All J-10 ( non J-10A) with white nozzle are J-10C.
( except prototype 1035 J-10B)

One Chinese member here already posted the image of that huge J-10 billboard with WS-10X engine for the Zhuaihai show. It was reported the J-10C would be de-classified by its static display at the show, making it one of the two highlights (the J-20 demo flight being another one) for the event. Somehow it was cancelled. Can a Static display of the J-10B create highlight for the Zhuhai show?

As such, none of those J-10 contained in your post is J-10C; they are all J-10B.

Funny that one was me and it did not show a C but simply one off the two WS-10-powered J-10B.

Just look at the tail, it is exactly that bird as shown already so often. It is one of the final two batch 01 J-10B:

Sorry again ... but I really don't know, why a C in Your perception has to use a WS-10??
Where is one, at least one source that calls only the WS-10-powered J-10 a J-10C???
You are indeed the only one.

Where are these all ??? Show us any of these WS-10-equipped J-10C ! I would be happy to be wrong, but there are simply none ....

Just look here: http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.de/p/fighters-ii.html#J-10C

I remember even that @星海军事 confirmed that on these batch 02 aircraft it the c/n is written as J10Cxxx similar to the J10B0117 at Zhuhai.

Deino

PS: the only point that makes me curious however is - which would hint You might be correct - why should the numbering of batches continue if the version is changed ? From J-10A to J-10B also a new sequence was started ... but maybe the difference is not big enough to justify this.

So it remains exciting.

 

[Deino]

Let's put it on record on PDF
All J-10 ( non J-10A) with black nozzle are J-10B;
All J-10 ( non J-10A) with white nozzle are J-10C.
( except prototype 1035 J-10B)
.

Just me again, seems as if I missed that part ??

What do You mean with "black nozzle" (J-10B) and "white nozzle" (J-10C) ???

Deino

 

[Tiqiu]

Funny that one was me and it did not show a C but simply one off the two WS-10-powered J-10B.

Funny indeed because It was @long_ who posted it up in his #8077. Of course I maybe wrong if you posted earlier than him. I know it did not say it was a C expressively, that is why We have to make an inferential judgement based on what we got.

What do you mean by one of the two WS-10 powered J-10B? Previously you and me agreed that only 1035(prototype J-10B) and 1004(prototype J-10A) were powered by WS-10 on public knowledge,Right? Do you agree with me now there are more than 1 non-J10A like of J-10 powered by WS-10?

I remember even that @星海军事 confirmed that on these batch 02 aircraft it the c/n is written as J10Cxxx similar to the J10B0117 at Zhuhai.

I don't know how the code numbers are written for the production J-10C, but it was said for those 5 prototype J-10C, the c/n were written in small font as J10C1051/2/3/4/5 only on the both sides of the prototype's rudder. Of course, no image on public domain to confirm it. Perhaps you can ask @星海军事 to sort it out.

Where are these all ??? Show us any of these WS-10-equipped J-10C ! I would be happy to be wrong, but there are simply none ....

C'mon, I have just gave your some claimed-to-be-J-10C images, but you just didn't spend time or pay attention to notice the minor differences. I ll use the same images to prove my point again.

Example1.
The following images created by you in your above post shows they are different, so you were in your saying that
"Just look at the tail, it is exactly that bird as shown already so often. It is one of the final two batch 01 J-10B"
Source: https://defence.pk/threads/chengdu-...fighter-air-craft.3218/page-551#ixzz4SZhOl2ja
The left one has one more yellow color device(antenna?) next to the lights on the vertical tale. So there is one more J10 powered by WS-10 other than 1035.

1035 also has this yellow thing.

Example 2
This said first production J-10C in the army service has a blade-shaped antenna next to the lights on the tale, which makes it a second one different than 1035.

2.49 has the same blade and the same location (towards the front edge), but it doesn't have MAW

Example 3
Another production J-10C seems have a very different nozzle color than the 1035

This is how 1035 looks like

Just me again, seems as if I missed that part ??

What do You mean with "black nozzle" (J-10B) and "white nozzle" (J-10C) ???

Deino

Just because no images of the production J-10C in yellow with designated c/n doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People have seen them claimed due to the similarity of their appearance we should use "black nozzle is B, white is C" to tell which is which. Using minor changes of antenna or MAW are not reliable because even 2.01/02/03 production J-10B are different than the 2.07 and onwards in the same batch.

PS: the only point that makes me curious however is - which would hint You might be correct - why should the numbering of batches continue if the version is changed ? From J-10A to J-10B also a new sequence was started ... but maybe the difference is not big enough to justify this.

So it remains exciting.

It is.If the claim is true that Batch 2 is J-10C, then why there is no single image of the 5 prototype J-10C or any prototype available? Why 5 prototypes had to be produced just for some minor changes of antenna/MAW? Why they are so secret while we have all these so-claimed production J-10C in yellow color posted up here on almost daily basis? It does not make sense,does it?