Changing demographics and standards in the Army

[Xeric]

Well i see a very healthy debate on the board...

Now, let me tell you something about lowering or raising the standards

of ISSB. This is just wrong, no standards have been lowered anywhere,

the Army can't afford lowering the standards, it is not Mobilink where

if poor chaps are inducted it will only result in loss of profit, in

the Army things get very 'real' and a false move can get you and your

undercommands screwed for guud!

So people have to think atleast a 100 times before appointing or

inducting someone to lead a group of men.

The simplest example that i can give here is of a Russian General who

was supposidly on CIA's pay role. After retirement he was once asked

by an american journalist (who actually was knowing the entire story

about him being a spy) that what exactly was the task entrusted upon

him by the CIAians, and his answer was: 'To promote incompetent

people!'

So you can comprehend what 'lowering the standards' can do to the

military.

Ok, next, about the competency of Army before, around and after '7: i

was not there in '71 but i can assure you our Officers and men are

world class, they are more aware, learnered and motivated. The

physical standards have been raised, courses now have more study,

research and beta stuff, people have gone more competitive and

attention from unnecessary and extra-curricular stuff have been

removed.


Lastly why it is always the Amry which has to do 'everything?'

i wonder why someone don't ask Muslims Commercial Bank to enroll

people from all the provinces, hmmmm... it's a private enterprise, ok

then what's wrong with Pakistan Steel or PTCL (which previously was

state owned) or for that matter Police.

Why the Army is asked to construct cadet colleges and schools and the

govt is spared or why the military is targeted if a girl is flogged?

Well if our people wants that the country should be run by the military that's a separate story, but Why?!

The education system is flawed, but none is bothered by it, the bureaucracy is rogering the sarkari vehicles, no one is hurt but the Officers' Mess which indeed is run by the Officer's money give many wet dreams?

The Army personnel pay every bill (electric, water, gas etc etc) but still many well-read and champions think that they get everything free of cost, even 20 grade idiots don't know that the Officer cadre has to pay for his damn food!

So there is a need that people should think positively and trust who need your trust!

 

[qsaark]

Why the Army is asked to construct cadet colleges and schools and the govt is spared or why the military is targeted if a girl is flogged?

If a class of prospective military officers can be groomed at a very early stage, establishing a school or college for that matter is not a bad idea. Such Schools can be run by Military personnel better than by the Government. These Schools will act like nurseries and that’s all I meant. Nobody is sparing the Government, but realizing the inability of the Governments (civilian or Military), if other Institution come forward and help establishing good Schools and Colleges, it would eventually help Pakistan in a long run. Asking others to do everything is bad but asking the Government to provide every thing is also bad.

Well if our people wants that the country should be run by the military that's a separate story, but Why?!The education system is flawed, but none is bothered by it, the bureaucracy is rogering the sarkari vehicles, no one is hurt but the Officers' Mess which indeed is run by the Officer's money give many wet dreams?

All these things also happen in Military. My best friend's dad was Corp Commander in Quetta. He always used to come in the staff car, why?

The Army personnel pay every bill (electric, water, gas etc etc) but still many well-read and champions think that they get everything free of cost, even 20 grade idiots don't know that the Officer cadre has to pay for his damn food!

Yes but at subsidized rates. Why they have to pay less for everything? Why rest of the Pakistanis have to get the same stuff for the full price?

So there is a need that people should think positively and trust who need your trust!

Trust is gained through positive actions. If military comes forward and present herself as a role model, than only than common Pakistanis will trust them.

 

[qsaark]

Check the history if you have the time - officers of punjabi, pathan, baluch, mohajir, memon/gujrati have all made it to general staff positions. its about merit mostly but when one gets to the rank of Brig, then the "networking" starts and generals are very loyal to their sub-ordinates and vice-versa.

Har ek baat par kehtey ho tum key too kya hey
Tumheen laho key yeh andaz a guftugu kya hey

You are preaching to the choir. Looks like you read my post in haste. I do not support any lowering of standards in order to induct less than qualified officers into the Military for any reason. I have no problem with Punjabis and Pathans running the Army if they are good at it.

musa - baluch

General Musa was Hazara not Baloch

 

[Xeric]

If a class of prospective military officers can be groomed at a very early stage, establishing a school or college for that matter is not a bad idea. Such Schools can be run by Military personnel better than by the Government. These Schools will act like nurseries and that’s all I meant. Nobody is sparing the Government, but realizing the inability of the Governments (civilian or Military), if other Institution come forward and help establishing good Schools and Colleges, it would eventually help Pakistan in a long run. Asking others to do everything is bad but asking the Government to provide every thing is also bad.

Read the following first bro, then i'll discuss this concern of yours:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...ation-building-activities-pakistani-army.html

All these things also happen in Military. My best friend's dad was Corp Commander in Quetta. He always used to come in the staff car, why?

well dear that is for what the staff car is. It is not provided 'just' for the Corps Commander. It is for his personal use, that include his own use and his family's use. It is similar to asking a Bank VP who is provided with car's' and X amount of fuel monthly that why is his son traveling on those cars! Well some will argue that a 'bank' is private thing, Ok so what, serving in a government doesn't mean that you have been 'grounded for life' and now no fun, no luxury and no liberty would be bestowed upon you. A Corps Commander who has served 35-40 in a demanding profession is being asked that why his son travels on a staff cars! This is what i am concerned about, why no one never asked an IG or DIG, Judge, SSP, that why they 'misuse' the vehicles.

My point was not about using the vehicles my concerns was about Misusing them, making them use for legit purposes like family towing etc is OK both for the civilian and military bureaucracy, but screwing and abusing the luxury is what makes me feel bad.

Try to understand the privileges entrusted in the designations, a PM has his own privileges and the President has its own. Similarly the MNAs, MPAs, DCOs, civilian gazetted officers all have something in their kitty, so why to criticizes them for traveling in luxury cars? Yes they should be criticized and thrown out of the vehicles is they are not delivering. Tomorrow you find the americans saying that why do a the President has the Airforce One and why does he travel in bullet proof drives?

The matter of concern is the misuse of rights and privileges NOT the use of the same.

i hope i am clear

Yes but at subsidized rates. Why they have to pay less for everything? Why rest of the Pakistanis have to get the same stuff for the full price?

Lolzz...
Now you the acting the same!
Sir, which subsidized rates are you talking about?
We don't get nothing on subsidized rates.
I also pay the dame for a mobile phone, a pepsi, milk, rice, electricity, water, clothing etc etc.

You probably have mixed up the american military with ours, the american soldier gets everything without paying the tax, we dont!

i am expecting more questions on this, i'll love to answer them, i'll like to tell you more about the 'welfare' stuff, i think you concerned about why Lipton tea bags cost Rs 2 less in certain cantts, i'll clarify that to you, when you'll ask.

Trust is gained through positive actions. If military comes forward and present herself as a role model, than only than common Pakistanis will trust them.

Well one thing!
Pakistan today has survived because of its Armed Forces-a bold statement but that's how it is. It is a separate looooonngg debate, would love to discuss it on a separate thread

 

[Kasrkin]

Special ISSB classes continue for induction of Balochis in armed forces PDF Print E-mail

QUETTA, Jan 29 (APP)- In line to induct youth from Balochistan in the country’s armed forces special Pre-Inter Services Selection Board (ISSB) classes are being organised in the provincial capital Quetta.

The latest such programme for four weeks, started on Januray 12 this year, is successfully completing its stages whereby imparting skills and training to the Balochi youth drawn from all parts of the province especially those hailing from remote areas are participating.

In the last few years, special measures have been adopted for induction of Baloch youth in armed forces, which includes establishment of ISSB Centre and commencement of Pre-ISSB Training Classes at Quetta. These positive measures increased the induction of Baloch youth in Armed Forces.

Candidates from interior Balochistan are being provided with boarding and lodging facilities at the ISSB centre Quetta during training courses.

Any and all pre-ISSB training is illegal across the country (it does happen a lot though), so looks like the Army is really going out of its way to ease in potential Balochi officers if they're so formal with this.

Interesting Fact: A lot of young-men from the tribal areas are not able to join the Army (commission and otherwise) because they're not circumcised (or not properly at least).

 

[Xeric]

Yes but at subsidized rates. Why they have to pay less for everything? Why rest of the Pakistanis have to get the same stuff for the full price?

If this is the freaking subsidy you are talking about, i dont need it bro! No thanks!

Electricity bill for one month amounting to Rs 2527/- WTF!!

A three bedroom house, in which me, my wife and my 8 months old baby make use of only 2 rooms gives me a bill of of more than 2K, them i dont need the f*** subsidy!

Now this bill is without the usage of AC, they only electric appliance that i make us of is the stuff like TV, HIFI system, laptop, fridge, etc etc. And as i mentioned earlier we make use of only one room, two at the most because of the small family. So virtually not more than 3-4 energy savers are used, and i try my utmost not to waste Miss bijli. And being a strict and upright officer i keep a content check on my electric meter (like noting down the meter reading on alternative days) to see if some hancky pacnky is going on. So no one can claim that the MES is charging me more or incorrectly.

My parents who live in Karachi in a triple storey house also pay a bill of Rs 3K (approx) (without AC), and we are family of like 7 members there, do the math as regards to the number of rooms in that house and the amount of electric appliances that they would be using.

If this is the subsidy you are talking about, no sir i don't need it

 

[Xeric]

Any and all pre-ISSB training is illegal across the country (it does happen a lot though), so looks like the Army is really going out of its way to ease in potential Balochi officers if they're so formal with this.

Well i was not expecting this from you Kas bro, anywaz, is it mentioned in the Constitution that it is illegal, one.

Second, i have already mentioned very clearly that this 'training' just to give those boys a little bit more confidence and a direction, nothing is imparted that can give them undue favor.

Most important! these classes have been happening in Multan also, so do you think the Army has also been trying hard to get Punjabis inducted in large numbers?

i have been part of these classes, (as an instructor-in Multan) and i very well know what we teach them.

If a boy who is actually genius, but is rejected by the Army just because he don't like to wear a shirt trouser, then sorry sir we will like to have that gentlemen as he would be an asset to us.

a guud boy who speaks even to his father like:
tum ko kaha tha k.....(what ever) (i don't talk like 'tum')

oa tum nay mujhy paisa nahi diya (i don't talk like 'oa', 'tum')

yara usko mainy kaha tha k tum ko khana lay deway (i dont talk like 'usko', 'tum')

mana usko batao k ami ko bata deway k mai roti nahi khaway ga (i dont talk to my mother like this)

ye jo Quaid-e-Azam hai na is nay hamara liye bahut qurbani diya (i dont refer to QA the great like this)

But he is a guud grader and has 'that thing' which the military requires, i'll not like to reject him just because he can't talk with respect due to his background (though for them that is a respectful way of talking-i hope you know the Pathans and balochs way of talking). i will like to give him another chance!
What do you think about it?

Interesting Fact: A lot of young-men from the tribal areas are not able to join the Army (commission and otherwise) because they're not circumcised (or not properly at least).

Well that's a news for me, truly.
Though it may be true.

i hope you are not referring to the terrorist caught previously who claimed to be Muslims but were not (due to the same reasons that you have mentioned-they were just not circumcised)

 

[Xeric]

To clarify the doubts more let me tell you the 'subsidized' rate on which the Army personnels are billed, got them from the MES recently:

Units
1 to 50 : 1.8954

51 t0 100 : 3.9346

101 to 300 : 5.8756

301 to 700 : 9.4539

701 above : 11.833

Try to get the rates from WAPDA and see we are subsidized

(i have seriously derailed the thread)

 

[Kasrkin]

"Well i was not expecting this from you Kas bro, anywaz, is it mentioned in the Constitution that it is illegal, one…"

You can call me old style if you want sir, but if my ISSB form says its illegal in red then I'd be given to believe its illegal. On the other hand, like I said tons of people go for these training sessions (rates are around Rs 10,000 I believe- GTO and interview guarantee past) and my friend was once kind enough to speak to one of these 'tutors' (a low ranking retired Air Force officer) on my behalf but I turned them down not because I feared I'd get caught (a lot of people in my batch were trained and the staff didn’t seem to mind or care) but because I'm an idiot and an idealist.

I didn’t mean to give the impression that I have anything against those who give and take these courses, all I said was that given how formally the army is doing these pre-ISSB familiarization lessons (whatever you want to call them) despite how they themselves sometimes discourage it, is something to be appreciated and proves the Army is serious about integrating our sometimes wayward Balochi brethren. I’m aware that linguistic and cultural disorientation can be real issue for kids along with other factors like regional familiarity and negate the performance of even high-potential candidates, so this course makes sense practically as well as symbolically.

 

[Xeric]

"Well i was not expecting this from you Kas bro, anywaz, is it mentioned in the Constitution that it is illegal, one…"

You can call me old style if you want sir, but if my ISSB form says its illegal in red then I'd be given to believe its illegal. On the other hand, like I said tones of people go for these training sessions (rates are around Rs 10,000 I believe- GTO and interview guarantee past) and my friend was once kind enough to speak to one of these 'tutors' (a low ranking retired Air Force officer) on my behalf but I turned them down not because I feared I'd get caught (a lot of people in my batch were trained and the staff didn’t seem to mind or care) but because I'm an idiot and an idealist.

I didn’t mean to give the impression that I have anything against those who give and take these courses, all I said was that given how formally the army is doing these pre-ISSB familiarization lessons (whatever you want to call them) despite how they themselves sometimes discourage it, is something to be appreciated and proves the Army is serious about integrating our sometimes wayward Balochi brethren. I’m aware that linguistic and cultural disorientation can be real issue for kids along with other factors like regional familiarity and negate the performance of even high-potential candidates, so this course makes sense practically as well as symbolically.

Well thanks for the clarification.

The main aim behind restricting the familiarization is that it will superimpose on your personality something that you are actually not, and this can seriously hamper your ISSB selection process. You must be knowing that during the ISSB you are like an open book, you cant hide anything,but if you'll try to act smart and do something cosmetic, as told to you by the Pre-ISSB trainer, thing would get difficult for you, so therefor it is strongly discouraged, as for the classes for Balochs and in Multan, the aim you yourself have highlighted very well

 

[qsaark]

I have seen those ISSB tests, and I myself have gone through GRE subject and General etc. These tests, as enigma has said, are difficult to dodge. Practice does help but only to certain extent. I did my Matriculation from an Urdu medium School but whatever the subjects I read in Urdu (all except for English of course), I read them well. And I was not alone; many more did the same and did it much better than me. Many of my friends joined Army, two went to PAF and I guess at least one joined the Navy. They all had Urdu-medium background but all of them passed the ISSB and finally made into respective branches. So I don’t think it is the Urdu-medium education that kept a majority of Sindhis and Balochs out of the Armed forces. It is just that they were/are not interested. They can work hard if they try, but they chose not to. There were three Baloch officers working under my Dad, and boy O' boy, they were simply not interested into what they were doing. My Dad persuaded these officers to do some graduate work in Australia and America (My Dad was from the 1st batch of officers who were sent abroad for post-graduation back in mid-70s). In order to get admission, they had to pass at-least TOEFL, and after repeated attempts, none of the officer scored enough to get admission in foreign Universities. Now who to blame? My Dad and his superiors did their best to send these officers (even though they were not among the mediocre) abroad, they showed no interest. I do not recall another Baloch student who did well during School and College except for one, Sharjil Baloch, who did MBBS and later became a Film Director.

So I guess it boils down to the fact that certain people are just not interested. It will be too much of a generalization if I say all the Balochs or all the Sindhis are like this, but probably majority of them are like that. Even though examples do exist of highly motivated Balochs such as Late Mir Yusuf Magsi. But they are exceptions rather than norms.

Why do Punjabis and Pathans are all over the country and into every business? Because they are hard working and progressive, something just not very common in other ethnic groups.

 

[blain2]

Why do Punjabis and Pathans are all over the country and into every business? Because they are hard working and progressive, something just not very common in other ethnic groups.

They are hard working indeed, however that is because a certain mindset has developed in them after they have seen the results of someone from their area, biradary or any other linkages that they have maintained with with their kin achieve and progress. Its a matter of motivation that you get from seeing other peers and those who have preceded you achieve something better. There is plenty of this to be had and seen in Punjab, Karachi, and in settled areas of NWFP but not much elsewhere.

People are motivated or not motivated for a myriad of reasons. You give them an opportunity from early on and you will see them avail it and progress. Baloch have never been known to be poor soldiers in the past. They would be great troops within the PA. The issue is that they do not consider the Army to be a profession for them. This mindset has to change along with a few other things (like their inclusion in the national economy as well as in the Pakistani mainstream). The reason potohar plateau continues to provide manpower to the Army is because this is all that the people of that region do. Kids grow up seeing their seniors join the Army. They get guidance and at a very high level a certain mindset that molds well into the Army culture. So they have a few advantages that others do not enjoy (not a fault of theirs by any means but I am just suggesting this to make a point).

 

[Xeric]

i agree with Blain in totality. The conditions and the procedures pointed out by him are correct, it is only because of this aim that certain 'laxities' (conduct of pre-ISSB classes etc) are being given to these people so that they can start afresh and after a while their 'juniors' will automatically be attracted to the profession.

It is just to jump-start them and there on they can take on the challenge by themselves. Atleast this is what the military can do for them for their uplift at its own, and for the rest, over to the CIVILIAN government!

 

[qsaark]

certain 'laxities' (conduct of pre-ISSB classes etc) are being given to these people so that they can start afresh and after a while their 'juniors' will automatically be attracted to the profession.

It is just to jump-start them and there on they can take on the challenge by themselves. Atleast this is what the military can do for them for their uplift at its own, and for the rest, over to the CIVILIAN government!

At this point the problem is not whether they can pass the ISSB or not, at this point the problem is to bring them to the recruitment centers. To join armed forces or even para-military forces is something most Balochs are simply not interested in for a variety of reasons. I am really doubtful about the 'automatically attracted to the profession' thing. A lot of Balochs from Turbat-Panjgur region join the Omani military and para-military forces and Police. But joining Omani military give them two advantages, higher salaries for less effort and almost zero probability of getting killed in some action.

What is really needed is a change in the mindset, and that in my humble opinion can only be achieved through better schooling. A person’s brain is more receptive at early age, and willing to accept new ideas. Why in Potohoar many choose to join military? It is because the kids see their dads, uncles, elder siblings serving in the Army. They get familiarized with a military life-style at very early age and find it easier to choose military as a profession. This is not the case in Sindh and Balochistan and will never be, so the next best option is to take the military life-style to their homes. If Pakistan military has to increase its recruiting base, it can only be achieved through education.

No matter how easy we make the selection procedure, those who are not willing to join will not join. You guys know better than me that passing ISSB is a peace of cake than the actual service in the military. We can bring more officers in Army but what if they started quitting from Army at early stages or due to poor performance, never made beyond a Major. Than the Army will be criticized for not promoting Baloch and Sindhi officers. So what would be the next thing to satisfy their grievances? To lower or ease up the promotion criteria?

I am not very much in the favor of pre-ISSB classes, what could be more useful would be to increase the number of attempts one can make before he is finally declared unsuitable for the military. Going through the real ISSB procedure will be more helpful and rewarding than the pre-ISSB classes.

 

[Xeric]

At this point the problem is not whether they can pass the ISSB or not, at this point the problem is to bring them to the recruitment centers. To join armed forces or even para-military forces is something most Balochs are simply not interested in for a variety of reasons. I am really doubtful about the 'automatically attracted to the profession' thing. A lot of Balochs from Turbat-Panjgur region join the Omani military and para-military forces and Police. But joining Omani military give them two advantages, higher salaries for less effort and almost zero probability of getting killed in some action.

What is really needed is a change in the mindset, and that in my humble opinion can only be achieved through better schooling. A person’s brain is more receptive at early age, and willing to accept new ideas. Why in Potohoar many choose to join military? It is because the kids see their dads, uncles, elder siblings serving in the Army. They get familiarized with a military life-style at very early age and find it easier to choose military as a profession. This is not the case in Sindh and Balochistan and will never be, so the next best option is to take the military life-style to their homes. If Pakistan military has to increase its recruiting base, it can only be achieved through education.

No matter how easy we make the selection procedure, those who are not willing to join will not join. You guys know better than me that passing ISSB is a peace of cake than the actual service in the military. We can bring more officers in Army but what if they started quitting from Army at early stages or due to poor performance, never made beyond a Major. Than the Army will be criticized for not promoting Baloch and Sindhi officers. So what would be the next thing to satisfy their grievances? To lower or ease up the promotion criteria?

I am not very much in the favor of pre-ISSB classes, what could be more useful would be to increase the number of attempts one can make before he is finally declared unsuitable for the military. Going through the real ISSB procedure will be more helpful and rewarding than the pre-ISSB classes.

First, Qsaark, it is the Army, not Ministry of Education that could go on school-construction-spree in Balochistan. This should be thought about by the govt, i think the military is part and parcel of this country and not a 'sotaila' institution. It should be the govt that should worry about these things-more induction of Balochs in the military.

The Army is doing what it can do without the govt's help. We dont get any special benefits if these classes are conducted nor we get the money that is spend on these procedures.

If you think that they should be provided with better education opportunities, which BTW is absolutely right and i favor it more as compared to running the pre-ISSB classes only, why don't you suggest the same to the govt, rather the provincial govt to be specific.

Army has taken a one sided initiative at its own, without any instruction from the govt (and america). It was felt ATLEAST by the Army that the Balochs are being ignored (and yes they definitely have been). i wonder why never the govt has been blamed for this. Just because the Army took the first step so is it necessary that all the sh!t which have been done to the Balochis should be thrown on army's shoulders? You mean that if i today say no to drugs and start a campaign against it but fail to deliver much because of lots of factors that are beyond 'my control', should i be blamed for the drug rampage in the country?

ik tu kam karo oper say batain suno

i dont know why His excellency Mr Bugti the Great! who BTW today is being painted as a national hero by b*****ds like Hamid Mir and NS, didn't make schools when he was the CM of the Province, why all the civilian govts both under NS and BB just put the Baloch problem and insurgency under the carpet by feeding the instigators so that no bad name should come to their regime. i fail to understand why if someone had the guts to take the initiative to kick the insurgency out from Balochistan and say NO to black mailers is not appreciated, rather he is blamed for the killing own brothers!! How strange can that be. i don't talk about the success or failure or operations in Balochistan, but atleast it was because of these actions that today atleast the rest of Pakistanis know that there is a problem in Balochistan!! Otherwise, Sub Accha Hai report could also have been given by the army and the insurgency could have allowed to play freely and screw the Province, but sorry we fail to let the things go unnoticed.

Now a few words about the education uplift that you have suggested. Try to read my thread on Chamalag Project, you'll come to know a thing known as CBEP (Chamalang Beneficiary Education Program). The Army very well knows who do do its work, so inn addition to provide pre-ISSB classes it has also started this education program which is providing quality education to 2994 children. Yes, stunted na, Three Thousand Childerns! FREE OF COST! Recently i was told by a colleague of mine that the Army has bought books, uniforms, stationary etc etc amounting to Rs 1 crore! (Now where this money comes from, a guud question, for the answer ask the question in that Chamalang thread, please)

Kids in Quetta might not require some special push to make them go to school as the city is already 'aware', but the areas like Kohlu, Rakhni, Nushki, Duki etc etc would definitely require attention. But you dont know that, why would you know that, as Sir Hamid Mir and Kamran Khan dont get paid if they highlights these efforts. The pre-ISSB things is being run for quite a few years now, but you find only ONE news link on the subject!! Strange na!

So dear Qsaark, i am not disputing you, but the thing is that if someone is atleast trying to add in a very small amount, it should be appreciated rather then pointing out mistakes and complaining it about the 'other' things that should also have been done.

Education is the most important issue, not only for Balochistan but for the entire Pakistan, and it is understood very well, but unfortunately the military doesnt run the country's Education Ministry, still it had and continue to do what it can from its own resources as regards to education not only in Balochistan, but also in Kashmir, Siachen, FATA and Northern Areas!