Chand dheaki k maslay per NASA ka jawab

[criticalerror]

Yet the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not forbid lunar calculations!! But only stated that as the Arabs were illiterate, they didn't use such calculations (as per Sahih Bukhari)... This argument actually disproves your assertion

He did not. He also did not allow them to be used as the sole source for declaration of Ramzan. Per Hadeeth these are the only conditions for Ramzan

1) Sighting of the moon or witness testimony to that effect

2) completing 30 days.

It doesn’t disprove my argument. If it were permissible you would have found proof of the use of lunar calculations. The Arabs were illiterate, the subsequent dominion of Islam was not.

 

[Crusher]

Yeah and i take serious exception to that. I am a Computer Science grad and you will not find someone more in favour of scientific methods . That doesn’t mean i start to purportedly “improve” a deen that is already beyond question just because i disagree with illiterate mullahs.If i use reason alone, the purpose of Faith is defeated. For example, i cannot see the Lord in literal terms yet i have faith and believe in Him and all his Qualities and Omniscience . I don’t have a solid reason to (Anaozobillah) if i go by logic, yet I believe in him because of His message that he Willed to guide me to.

That is it, religion is all about faith. Science is not at all about "faith", that is why I am strongly against all attempts to "islamicize" the science, or to "scientify" the islam.

 

[criticalerror]

That is it, religion is all about faith. Science is not at all about "faith", that is why I am strongly against all attempts to "islamicize" the science, or to "scientify" the islam.

Wholly agreed. Science can be used as an aid, not as the source/cannon.

 

[M. Sarmad]

He did not.

So, we both agree that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not forbid lunar calculations.

He also did not allow them to be used as the sole source for declaration of Ramzan.

As we discussed the other day, that's just an interpretation/inference and not the words of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)

It doesn’t disprove my argument. If it were permissible you would have found proof of the use of lunar calculations. The Arabs were illiterate, the subsequent dominion of Islam was not.

The Holy Prophet categorically stated that the Arabs were illiterate and that's why they didn't use calculations. He did not forbid the subsequent dominion of Islam to use lunar calculations as he knew that Muslims were not going to remain illiterate till eternity.

 

[ShaikhKamal]

With all due respect to people who wants to keep the traditions. The new moon can be calculated by astronomy in advance and there is no need to stand in the evening to watch the Eid or Ramadan moon. The time of each prayer is calculated in advance depending on the location on the earth. Non-Muslims laugh when we tell them we don't know when is Eid or when there are two or even three Eids in the same week depending on sect or people following specific countries. People who use smart phones and travel in modern planes but still want to wait for sighting of the moon So much contradiction ! There are calendars that can has dates of Ramadan in 2025 while some people still want eyewitness while they use modern gadgets.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Mullah's want to maintain their 'Religion industry' and control, that's all there is to it.

 

[criticalerror]

So, we both agree that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not forbid lunar calculations.

Already agreed to in our previous discussion as well. But the context of that agreement is also important.

As we discussed the other day, that's just an interpretation/inference and not the words of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)

The Holy Prophet categorically stated that the Arabs were illiterate and that's why they didn't use calculations. He did not forbid the subsequent dominion of Islam to use lunar calculations as he knew that Muslims were not going to remain illiterate till eternity.

On the contrary, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) categorically stated to start fasting on sighting of the moon. Sighting is the physical one, not the metaphorical one.


I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "When you see the crescent (of the month of Ramadan), start fasting, and when you see the crescent (of the month of Shawwal), stop fasting; and if the sky is overcast (and you can't see it) then regard the month of Ramadan as of 30 days."

[Sahih Bukhari Book 30, Hadith 10 ]

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days).

[Sahih Bukhari Book 30, Hadith 16]


Answers questions for cloud cover as well. No need to over complicate things when simpler solutions exist. Occam’s Razor.

 

[313ghazi]

So guys, are those doing Eid tomorrow committing sin? If so why is kpk govt facilitating it?

 

[krash]

Muslims were the proponents of this science, yet did not use calculations(which were available even then) to declare Ramzan and Eid. Otherwise we would have had the precedent.

There is precedent. I keep repeating it in every single post here and you guys still deliberately want to stay blind to it. The way our prayer timings are determined today holds direct precedence over the argument for a lunar calendar. Can you even tell me the way any one of the five prayer timings were considered in the Prophet's (S.A.W) time?

Those Muslims were pioneers of Science, yet chose to remain on the simple path of Sunnah. Ask yourself why that was so?

No they didn't. Never, in one instance, when they had the choice. Ask yourself, why are you making up facts?

The earliest known lunar calendar was found at Warren Field in Scotland and has been dated to c. 8000 bc, during the Mesolithic period

Such calculations were present way before Islam. If it were permissible, the golden era of Muslim scientists would have picked it up.

Please provide calculations, proof that they were available to the muslim world and empirical data on how accurate they were.

Also Namaz is calculated according to the Sun which is much more consistent and reliable than lunar calculations.

No, it actually isn't. The Solar cycle, especially when it comes to day to day parameters, is just as reliable as the lunar cycle. Neither of them wakes up every day and only then decides what to do. The only difference is that the solar cycle was worked upon by the west for centuries because it was of concern to them, while the Muslims refuse to for the lunar cycle because we are obtuse.

We can’t pick and choose and modify on the fly whatever part of Islam we wish to, just because science has replaced it .

We first need to realize what is and what is not part of the religion. Sighting the moon is not part of Islam.

Faith vs Science is a fundamental distinction, one that can’t be argued with reason alone.

Not in Islam. Islam does not go against science because it is the word of God. There is no distinction there is no conflict, at least not for Muslims who actually have faith in the word of God. As was also shown by Muslims better than you and I, for hundreds of years when Islam ruled the world by accepting and embracing science. Please don't peddle this uneducated excreta propagated by the scared, illiterate mullahs.

 

[criticalerror]

So guys, are those doing Eid tomorrow committing sin? If so why is kpk govt facilitating it?

Per Hadeeth , they MIGHT BE. I can’t affirm beyond that.

Allah knows best.

 

[313ghazi]

If they have sighted the moon, what of the website?

Are the Saudis, Emirates, Nigerians, all lying.

 

[ShaikhKamal]

When Humans will colonize the other planets and have interstellar travel then what will be the schedule of Ramadan and Eid ?

 

[Crusher]

When Humans will colonize the other planets and have interstellar travel then what will be the schedule of Ramadan and Eid ?

Those "humans" who are colonizing other planets don't believe in any religion, religions have no place in their lives. The purpose of their lives is only "science" and research. They are people like this theoretical physics professor Kaku,

 

[criticalerror]

There is precedent. I keep repeating it in every single post here and you guys still deliberately want to stay blind to it. The way our prayer timings are determined today holds direct precedence over the argument for a lunar calendar. Can you even tell me the way any one of the five prayer timings were considered in the Prophet's (S.A.W) time?

Enlighten us on this precedent then. ? I haven’t seen that precedent. Also note Solar and Lunar calculations are like apples and oranges. No relation to each other. Salah times are calculated on SOLAR TIMINGS. Not Lunar.

No they didn't. Never, in one instance, when they had the choice. Ask yourself, why are you making up facts?




Please provide calculations, proof that they were available to the muslim world and empirical data on how accurate they were.

I have already provided proof, rather than a simple rebuttal. Please read for proof of the existence of a lunar calendar way before Islam.

No, it actually isn't. The Solar cycle, especially when it comes to day to day perimeters, is just as reliable as the lunar cycle. Neither of them wakes up every day and only then decides what to do. The only difference is that the solar cycle was worked upon by the west for centuries because it was of concern to them, while the Muslims refuse to for the lunar cycle because we are obtuse.

Yes there is. Solar cycles are determined by an entirely different factor. There are different horizons and angles accounting for summer solstice and winter equinox. Please read the science before arguing . Everything is not as simple as pie. Solar and lunar cycles are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. Not even close to being equally reliable. You can note the difference between Gregorian and Islamic calendars for this. June 4 will occur at the same time EVERY YEAR. 29th Ramzan WILL NOT. That is a simplistic example for you.

We first need to realize what is and what is not part of the religion. Sighting the moon is not part of Islam.

Please read Hadeeth before passing generalized statements on subject matter you have no knowledge of. I already quoted those Hadeeth above.

Not in Islam. Islam does not go against science because it is the word of God. There is no distinction there is no conflict, at least not for Muslims who actually have faith in the word of God. As was also shown by Muslims better than you and I, for hundreds of years when Islam ruled the world by accepting and embracing science. Please don't peddle this uneducated excreta propagated by the scared, illiterate mullahs.

This para of yours is very indicative of your mentality. Science and Religion is NOT IN HARMONY. You will never find scientific proof for existense of many religious concepts. I have no love for Mullahs. I have love for the Prophet(PBUH) and his Sunnah, which you just swept under the mullah carpet. How very idiotic of you.

 

[M. Sarmad]

On the contrary, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) categorically stated to start fasting on sighting of the moon. Sighting is the physical one, not the metaphorical one.


I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "When you see the crescent (of the month of Ramadan), start fasting, and when you see the crescent (of the month of Shawwal), stop fasting; and if the sky is overcast (and you can't see it) then regard the month of Ramadan as of 30 days."

[Sahih Bukhari Book 30, Hadith 10 ]

Yes he categorically stated to start fasting on "the sighting" of the moon as there were no other means available to Arabs back in those days to determine Ramazan days. He, however, in this Hadith (or in any other), did not forbid (categorically or otherwise) the (future)Muslims to use other more accurate methods of determining the Ramazan days.

And if you want to take "Sighting" literally, then even the use of telescopes is forbidden as per this Hadith (a position maintained by many clerics) ..... Also, if you are a literalist, then you should oppose the use of Tanks, Jets etc. in war as the Holy Qur'an has mentioned "horses" only:

"...Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy..." (8:60)

Also, as per your logic, using all kinds of bombs is prohibited in Islam as there is a Sahih Hadith categorically stating that "No one may punish using fire other than the Lord of the Fire (Allaah)."...

I can quote tens of such examples.... This literalist approach may have been applicable in the past, ..... but not any longer...