Car rams into Police van on the Champs-Elysées

[TMA]

If you talk about foreign policy, then I agree with you. If you are talking about human rights within western countries, I do not recall that anyone has been opressed in recent history.


As long as you follow the law of the (western) country you live in, you have nothing to fear. As soon you would be spreading beliefs that would be absolutely against western norms (sharia, arranged marriage,...), you deserve to be called out and if one would not be willing to give those things up, then might have to consider leaving said country.
People living in western countries will never be treated against any norms of human rights, if they would be, then our very foundations would mean nothing.

The people who have power in Western countries do not give two hoots about human rights especially abroad but this I fear will change with beneficial domestic terror attacks paving the way for more Big Brother intrusion.
They especially depise the mere belief in the Word of God or a Prophet of God (Sharia or forced marriage are not the ultimate target) And it is mainly Muslims in the Modern West who hold to such beliefs. Pagan Rome has done away with the Christians...

The Modern Western Foundations are rotting and slowly it is becoming evident. It will take a bit longer for the one eyed to see. I hope someone can fix them or replace before it reaches critical.

By the way Western norms are not fixed, they have changed and will continue to do so... Should Rosa Parks have stood up?

 

[Cell_DbZ]

The people who have power in Western countries do not give two hoots about human rights especially abroad but this I fear will change with beneficial domestic terror attacks paving the way for more Big Brother intrusion.

I said I agree that the western powers don't care about human rights abroad, all countries only serve their own interests from the Usa to Russia to Saudi Arabia, this is the sad reality we live in and it will probably never change.

They especially depise the mere belief in the Word of God or a Prophet of God (Sharia or forced marriage are not the ultimate target) And it is mainly Muslims in the Modern West who hold to such beliefs. Pagan Rome has done away with the Christians...

Western countries started to do well when religion was seperated with rule, instead of putting god and religion in the centre, we instead shifted focus to the man. 'Pagan Rome' didn't dispose the people, the people 'disposed' 'Pagan Rome' instead. We 'stopped' letting God lead us and we started to use reasoning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

And it is mainly Muslims in the Modern West who hold to such beliefs. Pagan Rome has done away with the Christians...

It is the obligation of those muslim people to assimilate into our society, it is not the obligation for western society to change to their norms. I am afraid that muslim countries have to make that evolution, I am not saiyan that religion should be disposed, but people should be using a progressive mindset. This is the reason why in many muslim countries, there are a lot less human rights.

The Modern Western Foundations are rotting and slowly it is becoming evident. It will take a bit longer for the one eyed to see. I hope someone can fix them or replace before it reaches critical.

Can you point this out? I don't see how we are 'rotting'.

By the way Western norms are not fixed, they have changed and will continue to do so... Should Rosa Parks have stood up?

Rosa Parks should have stood up and she did. Now black people are no longer opressed in the Usa. Society is always evolving, that is the key to succes.

 

[TMA]

I said I agree that the western powers don't care about human rights abroad, all countries only serve their own interests from the Usa to Russia to Saudi Arabia, this is the sad reality we live in and it will probably never change.


Western countries started to do well when religion was seperated with rule, instead of putting god and religion in the centre, we instead shifted focus to the man. 'Pagan Rome' didn't dispose the people, the people 'disposed' 'Pagan Rome' instead. We 'stopped' letting God lead us and we started to use reasoning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment


It is the obligation of those muslim people to assimilate into our society, it is not the obligation for western society to change to their norms. I am afraid that muslim countries have to make that evolution, I am not saiyan that religion should be disposed, but people should be using a progressive mindset. This is the reason why in many muslim countries, there are a lot less human rights.

Can you point this out? I don't see how we are 'rotting'.

Rosa Parks should have stood up and she did. Now black people are no longer opressed in the Usa. Society is always evolving, that is the key to succes.

IMHO people are using less reason these days. The one who created Reason is superior to it.

By rotting I mean the greater Big Brother intrusion that is coming. When you say progressive mind set do you mean one should not accept the Lord God and his Prophets?

By Pagan Rome I meant that the Modern West is now "Pagan" and is attacking the religious way of life like Pagan Rome of Old did to the Christians.

Rosa Parks broke the law and the norm did she not? Was she not a criminal?

Society is always evolving and so are Western Norms, who knows that Muslim practices may become part of the norm in future? (I highly doubt it though).

 

[Zibago]

then wise option for them would be to either leave the french soil or practice their religion in private while living in accordance to french law.


thats what i am afraid of too and unlike jews there won't be a superpower coming to Muslim rescue this time and count won't stop at 6 million.
may that day never come but i think muslim too has to play their part to avert this intolerance crisis

French were wise enough to not buy into alt right bs you wont see that happening in France the worst you could see is racial profiling and issues for conservative Muslims

 

[Cell_DbZ]

By rotting I mean the greater Big Brother intrusion that is coming.

I don't understand what you mean with that

When you say progressive mind set do you mean one should not accept the Lord God and his Prophets?

We can get in the argument of the excistence of God, but then we will go off topic.
If that God is going to promote to violate the norms that have been set in western countries, then no. You said that only the end goalsmatter, do the aspects and the manners to reach that not matter at all? Religion is not ruling the western countries, people are. You cannot tell me that the muslim countries, who are beign ruled by religion are doing better, espacially if we consider human rights. If you do not want to live under and respect western norms, I am afraid that you have no place here then. Western countries are never going to let any religion lead if it wants keep advancing.
IMHO the strick implementation of religion holds mankind back.

 

[Zibago]

It is the obligation of those muslim people to assimilate into our society, it is not the obligation for western society to change to their norms. I am afraid that muslim countries have to make that evolution, I am not saiyan that religion should be disposed, but people should be using a progressive mindset. This is the reason why in many muslim countries, there are a lot less human rights.

All countries change at their own pace this evolution will happen slowly once economic and political stability happens

It is the obligation of those muslim people to assimilate into our society,

Muslims are not a homogeneous group even two Muslims from same street can have different opinions
Sadiq Khan and Mullah Chaudry belong to the same community

By rotting I mean the greater Big Brother intrusion that is coming. When you say progressive mind set do you mean one should not accept the Lord God and his Prophets?

Na chairo na chiro
Live and let live folks

 

[Cell_DbZ]

All countries change at their own pace this evolution will happen slowly once economic and political stability happens

I don't disagree with that, it took Europe 150+ years (starting to count from the French Revolution)to reach democracy that is similar of today. It is important to stimulate countries. I think it is equally important to not force democracy around the world, because that never works and it even sets back that certain country (Iraq is an example).

Muslims are not a homogeneous group even two Muslims from same street can have different opinions
Sadiq Khan and Mullah Chaudry belong to the same community

Every single person is different, everyone has the freedom of expression of their opinion. I was not even arguing that (I admit that I was vague). I was arguing that western countries have norms which protects human rights and that these have to be respected, you cannot go to one of those countries while not assimilating into that society.

When you say progressive mind set do you mean one should not accept the Lord God and his Prophets?

Every muslim has the right to pray, to go to mosques,... Every person has the right of freedom of expression and equal rights, no one has the right to spread hate. You also have no right to spread norms which violates the norms of said country, even if they are described in the Quran.
this is happening quite often:

here's a video of an Imam who explains the problem from his point of view:

 

[mike2000 is back]

Not going to happen I believe. The attacker was part of a shooting club since 2011 and LEGALLY owned DOZEN of weapons.
He was known to the authorities since september 2015,but his authorization to own guns was renewed in february 2017,the prefecture said there was no signs of threats or enough proofs,which could have justified the rejection of his authorization.

In 2016 two Gendarmes went to the shooting club and asked several questions to its president about that man,and nothing suspicious here too.

Hmmmmm

Lol You don't know that dude? Most of his views about such topic is that all this terrorists attack is being pushed by western government to tarnish the image of muslims/Islam and use this to target them accordingly. Kinda like a conspiracy against muslims by our leaders.

 

[Zibago]

Every single person is different, everyone has the freedom of expression of their opinion. I was not even arguing that (I admit that I was vague). I was arguing that western countries have norms which protects human rights and that these have to be respected, you cannot go to one of those countries while not assimilating into that society.

True bro freedom of religion, freedom of expression and individuals are a must for an inclusive tolerant progressive society
A compromise on either one of them is oppression in my book
No one has a right to force his opinion on others

this is happening quite often:

Why you tolerate such clowns?They turn into Jihadi johns

(Iraq is an example).

A victim of the evil empire

I don't disagree with that, it took Europe 150+ years (starting to count from the French Revolution)to reach democracy that is similar of today. It is important to stimulate countries. I think it is equally important to not force democracy around the world, because that never works and it even sets back that certain country

The pace is different but the direction is net positive

 

[TMA]

Hmmmmm


Lol You don't know that dude? Most of his views about such topic is that all this terrorists attack is being pushed by western government to tarnish the image of muslims/Islam and use this to target them accordingly. Kinda like a conspiracy against muslims by our leaders.

No they are being done to further Big Brother intrusions and generate the Clash.

 

[Zibago]

I don't understand what you mean with that

I think he means mi6 will see what you google on friday night

 

[mike2000 is back]

No they are being done to further Big Brother intrusions and generate the Clash.

Yes I already got your point a long time ago

 

[TMA]

I don't understand what you mean with that


We can get in the argument of the excistence of God, but then we will go off topic.
If that God is going to promote to violate the norms that have been set in western countries, then no. You said that only the end goalsmatter, do the aspects and the manners to reach that not matter at all? Religion is not ruling the western countries, people are. You cannot tell me that the muslim countries, who are beign ruled by religion are doing better, espacially if we consider human rights. If you do not want to live under and respect western norms, I am afraid that you have no place here then. Western countries are never going to let any religion lead if it wants keep advancing.
IMHO the strick implementation of religion holds mankind back.

I think those who do "Sharia patrols" are acutally playing into the Clash, they do Islam a great diservice and their host nations if they are not native.

Muslim countries are not run by religion, maybe Iran. They used to be centuries ago.

I do respect western norms ( I do not agree with all of them), but those who have power don't and want them changed and they will do this by a Clash. That is my point.

What I seek to do is to get to the underlying values of these norms and analyse them.
So for example I do not vote as I see it as commiting blashphemy but I do not force others to not vote, but do I have the right to discuss with others and tell them my rationale for not voting in the Western norm? Or are there limits of freedom of expression (of course there are) and if so who sets them and are they fixed? If not fixed then can not one or many try to change them as they have changed in the past.
Once upon a time it was a norm to lynch Africans in the USA and then that norm changed... Once upon a time it was norm for an African to give up his seat for a European and then that changed...

By the way the PEOPLE certainly do not rulewestern nations. None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free...
If only people did rule, then NATO would not have supported ISIS et al.

Yes I already got your point a long time ago

Then when informing others of my point, please represent it as accurately as possible.

Thank you.

I think he means mi6 will see what you google on friday night

Something like that...

 

[Cell_DbZ]

Lol You don't know that dude? Most of his views about such topic is that all this terrorists attack is being pushed by western government to tarnish the image of muslims/Islam and use this to target them accordingly. Kinda like a conspiracy against muslims by our leaders.

No, I am new here, I am learning it the hard way it seems...

I think he means mi6 will see what you google on friday night

They can't see what I'm googling, because I go incognito mode

 

[Zibago]

They can't see what I'm googling, because I go incognito mode

Dont we all

No, I am new here, I am learning it the hard way it seems...

You will learn mentality of different members and make friends and foes here
Be warned some folks give weird arguments based on nothing but buzz words