Capabilities of Tribal Lashkars, A debate

[zavis2003]

Now a days Tribal Lashkars (tribal troops) are organized for the purpose of curing the problem of terror.
Most funny part is that if they kill 2 terrorists they suffer 2 times or 3 times more casualities compared to miscreants.

1 Now question arises here is that they are responsible for western border protection according to FCR regulation they are responsible for peace keeping in there areas and this is huge responsibility, now in such scenario is there needs to keep them as illeterate and ignorent cost free troops of Pak.

2 They have alot of weapons , none of tem of military standards and they cannotshotdown a single drone plane. These tribals with these mass wepons of no use other than for crimes are useful in what aspect?

3 they failed to stop the infilitriation of the Talibans and miscreants from Afghan border now what we should do with these Tribals?

4 is this not a time to change there way of life respecting there tradition with no weponary type tradition?

These are Q hope u ppl would debate in positive way

looking for ur comments

 

[zavis2003]

Henry Kasenger former US secretary of state and a Think tank once said "the areas where local govts have no or little rit are intersting for international players"

 

[black tiger]

Tribal lashkars are probably good for policing their own villages, they can be very usefull in areas where there is no army presence. They should be taught to handle small groups of terrorist's on their own and hold off large groups till army comes. They can be provided some training and provided with sat phones, radios etc for communications. Giving them advanced weapons may not be feasible due to cost and the risk of them turning against army or the weapons going to taliban.
Regards....

 

[Elmo]

Now a days Tribal Lashkars (tribal troops) are organized for the purpose of curing the problem of terror.
Most funny part is that if they kill 2 terrorists they suffer 2 times or 3 times more casualities compared to miscreants.

Well it ain't really funny talking about murder. Yes, they are suffering more casualties because they are up against a highly trained and mechanised enemy but they are defending their homes in the process. It's very easy to mock, at least credit those common men who have been brave enough to stand up in these times.




1 Now question arises here is that they are responsible for western border protection according to FCR regulation they are responsible for peace keeping in there areas and this is huge responsibility, now in such scenario is there needs to keep them as illeterate and ignorent cost free troops of Pak.

There are two types of lashkars we are talking of here: those in the tribal areas and those in the settled areas of NWFP. While the lashkars in the tribal areas come under the FCR and were formed as early as 2004, those in the Swat, Dir etc are newer. The reason you have them is maintenance of law and order since there is a shortage of trained policemen in the province.


Being illiterate and ignorant are secondary when you have to control an enemy that is also illiterate and ignorant but has been brainwashed.



2 They have alot of weapons , none of tem of military standards and they cannotshotdown a single drone plane. These tribals with these mass wepons of no use other than for crimes are useful in what aspect?

The lashkars are against the Taliban not the drones. They don't need those kind of weapons to take down a drone. Also, yes, admittedly they are poorly armed to fight the Taliban in some areas but soemthing is better than nothing.


3 they failed to stop the infilitriation of the Talibans and miscreants from Afghan border now what we should do with these Tribals?

That's not the job of the lashkars... that's the job of the frontier border forces!!!


4 is this not a time to change there way of life respecting there tradition with no weponary type tradition?

You are all confused.

 

[PAFAce]

I have never been a huge fan of civil militias or lashkars or whatever you may want to call them. In my opinion, weapons in the hands of ordinary civillians, without training and without control, is asking for trouble. Militias generally start out well-meaning and focused, and then get out of control. In an ideal world, there would be no shortage of trained professional police/paramilitary forces in the region. Unfortunately, the situation is not ideal, and lashkars have become a necessity. There should, however, be efforts made to control the chaos of lashkars. Already we have seen examples of mud-slinging on the Army for "Human Rights" violations, which are most likely a direct result of uncontrolled tribesmen action.

We need to account for every single man with a weapon in that area, and make every lashkar account for their actions. Also, able and willing portions of these lashkars need to be converted into formal police forces with proper training and equipment to form a permanent shield against insurgency in the region. A lot has to be done to make sure these lashkars don't run away with power, or that the current unity doesn't give way to future feudal fighting. Also, the stronger we make these lashkars now, the more strongly they will oppose government rule in the future. They want complete self-governance, which is partly the reason they have come out in force against the Taleban now, but unfortunately, complete self-governance is not something that is in Pakistan's interest. Like I've said many times before, now is the time to bring the tribal areas under Pakistan proper.

The reason you have them is maintenance of law and order since there is a shortage of trained policemen in the province.
Being illiterate and ignorant are secondary when you have to control an enemy that is also illiterate and ignorant but has been brainwashed.
The lashkars are against the Taliban not the drones.

Yes, but how can they be trusted to uphold the law and order for good. They are neither trained for that role and neither are they aware of the complexities of upholding the law or maintaining the order. Their law may be more merciful and rational than the Taleban's but it will not br the land of the law. Literacy may have helped with this quite a bit.
And I do believe the lashkars are against drone attacks since their families stand a serious chance of becoming collateral damage.

is this not a time to change there way of life respecting there tradition with no weponary type tradition?

I don't know what he meant by that statement. If he meant de-weaponizing the region, it will surely help to do so once things return back to normal in a few years' time, InshAllah.

 

[Elmo]

Yes, but how can they be trusted to uphold the law and order for good. They are neither trained for that role and neither are they aware of the complexities of upholding the law or maintaining the order. Their law may be more merciful and rational than the Taleban's but it will not br the land of the law. Literacy may have helped with this quite a bit.
And I do believe the lashkars are against drone attacks since their families stand a serious chance of becoming collateral damage.

In my earlier post I had said: "There are two types of lashkars we are talking of here: those in the tribal areas and those in the settled areas of NWFP. While the lashkars in the tribal areas come under the FCR and were formed as early as 2004, those in the Swat, Dir etc are newer. The reason you have them is maintenance of law and order since there is a shortage of trained policemen in the province."

According to fata.gov.pk, "Implementation of jirga decisions in non-protected areas is the responsibility of the tribe. The jirga may mete out punishment to an offender, imposing a heavy fine. Occasionally, more serious measures may be taken such as expelling an individual or a family from the area, and confiscating, destroying or setting fire to homes and property. In such cases, the entire tribe bands together as a lashkar (army) to enforce the decision."

So lashkars have been there in FATA for a very long time and have backing under the FCR. So yes, those lashkars in FATA know the "laws" they have to uphold. The most shining example, if one may call it, is the lashkar of the Salarzai tribe in Bajaur that has managed to retain control of its area despite all the upheavals. The current amendments proposed for the FCR do not talk about the lashkars, so I am guessing their status quo will be maintained.

Coming to the lashkars in Malakand division --- yes, they have been unsuccessful due to three reasons, some of which you pointed out in your post as well: (a) poor training, (b) poor backing (there have been instances where the lashkars were cornered by the Taliban but when they asked for the local police to send re-enforcements the same were not made available, and (c) in some areas lashkars have been formed "forcibly" --- the locals did not want to take up arms against the Taliban having borne their brunt earlier but were forced to by the local administration and unsurprisingly there is low morale amongst them.


The lashkars are just temporary community policing forces that are not and should not be seen as a permanent solution. The NWFP government started recruiting and training a large number of men from conflict-ridden areas to train as policemen--- but even they will be hired for a period of two years. In the meanwhile, a vacuum cannot be left. While these men are receiving training, the Taliban cannot be allowed to fester again. We do not have enough resources to deploy large numbers of army personnel nor are there enough police officers.

As for literacy, that is a subjective term. What we are looking at in NWFP is a force that can swiftly counter or curb any excesses as the mainstream forces arrive and take over. You would rather need to profile the people who are joining the lashkars and see with whom their sympathies lies. Just because someone attended a madrasah doesn't automatically equate it to being a Taliban. Similarly, attending a foreign uni doesn't make you a liberal either. Knowing the difference between right and wrong is the key. A simple question can make a difference: do you support or have you ever supported the Taliban?


Training the lashkars to follow a set protocol is far more important. When can they use their arms, when can they not. Just don't leave them on their own to act. Give them a briefing on how to conduct themselves. Have a set of rules and regulations to be followed.

As for lashkars against drone attacks, I am figuring you are talking about the lashkars in FATA. Could you elaborate on this, I couldn't get your point about collateral damage: "And I do believe the lashkars are against drone attacks since their families stand a serious chance of becoming collateral damage"

 

[nightrider_saulat]

they are just good to increse the moral of the nation otherwise they don't even stand a chance against taliban in one on one fight

 

[PakShaheen79]

I think one purpose of forming these Laskhers is to keep maximum young tribal on your side by giving them a moral duty and then there is a great deal of information these Lashkers can provide about terrorists and their activities.

 

[mjnaushad]

Tribal Lashkars are not for fighting Taliban directly. But when Army clear the area its become difficult for the army to recognize between Taliban and Civilian. The tribal lashker made of locals know each and every men of the village. So its easy to identify taliban and hold the captured ground with there help. And tribal lashkar are also helping Army morale by showing that the public is not supporting taliban but supports the army.

 

[zavis2003]

All of u focused the discussio on one thing that they are good at right now what they are doing..

obviously thy are doing a great job

but what this thread is for, that we should analyse how troubles created in Tribal areas dispite laskars were there , there responded so late , and important is that all terrorism is produced in the tribal areas and swat affected from miscreants of tribals who joined hand wid local terrorists, tribal situation set an xample for the swat ......


So what we need to analyse is not that how they are working but to think that how worsed situation happened in tribal areas and how to cure them. And how in future this wont let to be happen

Coz of such tribal wepons tradition it is mostly NOGO area for other ppl annd its different from settled areas

 

[zavis2003]

2ndly u ppl think that lashkars are not for curing inflitriationz they just act as local police
For all of u before this there was no single security force personnel was at western border,
common pakistani thought wa sthat they are guarding the western side. and they were used in 48 war too in kashmir and they have RPGS MACHINEGUNZ mortors heavy wepons and u calls them alocall police . is police needs RPGS mortorz HMGs. Rockets

We have kept our eyes close from that side even now we dont wanna see the real situation. despite all this they fail to cure the problems .
Actually mass weponry is off no use if u have no such trainings standards.
i personaaly once visited MIRAMSHAH in 2003 there i have a close university friendz home. i found every person approx carryinng wepon like kalshinkovs and he told me the story that once long long ago they went into battle against another tribe and how he used his machine gun, oh my god he said during any clash when firing approx 95% bullets are fired at mountainz and 5 percents of them are fired at targets
i think none of u has seen how troops move in there areas they are red alerted coz of this weponry
Now we have to decide our faith that either we needs to cahnge this tradition or not
Governaments are not powerfull enough to take such decisions coz they comprises weak pplz

---------- Post added at 10:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 PM ----------

2ndly u ppl think that lashkars are not for curing inflitriationz they just act as local police
For all of u before this there was no single security force personnel was at western border,
common pakistani thought wa sthat they are guarding the western side. and they were used in 48 war too in kashmir and they have RPGS MACHINEGUNZ mortors heavy wepons and u calls them alocall police . is police needs RPGS mortorz HMGs. Rockets

We have kept our eyes close from that side even now we dont wanna see the real situation. despite all this they fail to cure the problems .
Actually mass weponry is off no use if u have no such trainings standards.
i personaaly once visited MIRAMSHAH in 2003 there i have a close university friendz home. i found every person approx carryinng wepon like kalshinkovs and he told me the story that once long long ago they went into battle against another tribe and how he used his machine gun, oh my god he said during any clash when firing approx 95% bullets are fired at mountainz and 5 percents of them are fired at targets
i think none of u has seen how troops move in there areas they are red alerted coz of this weponry
Now we have to decide our faith that either we needs to cahnge this tradition or not
Governaments are not powerfull enough to take such decisions coz they comprises weak pplz

 

[dabong1]

I hope that pakistan spend the same amount it has done over the last couple of years on the military front and spends the same amount now on education and health.
The people that make up the tribal lashkar should be formed into proper para-miliatry organisation under the leadership of the pak army.
Lets get some mega projects going in FATA and experiment further with the "sharia" system.

 

[abbasniazi]

Now a days Tribal Lashkars (tribal troops) are organized for the purpose of curing the problem of terror.
Most funny part is that if they kill 2 terrorists they suffer 2 times or 3 times more casualities compared to miscreants.

Well in my opinion, the ratio of casualty matters when u have given them training and they fail to comeup to ur expectations, in this case even the small weapons they have are purchased by them from their own pocket and we are not talking about people who are living in fertile plains of punjab or sindh and earning good from agriculture, they have almost no means of making a living, yet they are showing courage and solidarity with the rest of the country, i think we should appreciate their efforts and either provide them protection or give them training and intelligence to neutralize taliban threat and trust me , once we do it they'll prove that they are the best people to take care of these insurgents.

1 Now question arises here is that they are responsible for western border protection according to FCR regulation they are responsible for peace keeping in there areas and this is huge responsibility, now in such scenario is there needs to keep them as illeterate and ignorent cost free troops of Pak.

The answer to ur question is simple and i already answered that, its not their fault that they lack training or equipment, rather its our fault to expect so much from civilians to take care of the problem which the most advanced countries couldn't. we must train and educate them and make them realize how big their responsibilty is and how much we respect their participation and contribution for bringing peace in the region.

2 They have alot of weapons , none of tem of military standards and they cannotshotdown a single drone plane. These tribals with these mass wepons of no use other than for crimes are useful in what aspect?

"Alot of Weapons?" what do u mean by alot? all they have are Darra made rifles and nothing more then that, neither we nor they'd have ever realized the size and quantum of threat which appeared out of nowhere, and why u put blame on them of not shooting down US drones with rifles whereas we don't even have the courage to shoot at a single drone with state of the art weapons of the armed forces? and by the way when u have no means to make a living and u r caught in a troublesome situation where u have no guarantee of provision of food and shelter and even ur survivabilty then people weaken out and crimes breakout, its normal and it happened almost everywhere in the world in such situations in the past, so no big deal

3 they failed to stop the infilitriation of the Talibans and miscreants from Afghan border now what we should do with these Tribals?

they didn't fail to stop the infiltration, those people were already there as one of them and were living peacefully, however, circumstances changed their mind and they went rougue, all we can do is to bring them in main national streamline and help them realize their responsibilty and importance to the nation.

4 is this not a time to change there way of life respecting there tradition with no weponary type tradition?

I don't think we can impose that on them or even decide it on our own, we should show them the merits of education and progressive mindset and help them decide themselves to giveup arms, its their tradition for centuries to stay armed and we can't change that overnight.

 

[nightcrawler]

I want to say one single thing that even though these Lashkars may not be able not take down one single drone but they are able to take down hundreds of lives in an instant!!

So I really take them not any type of mischievous people but dangerous people