Can Indian T-90, T-72 MBTs be considered obsolete?

[Zarvan]

Russian armor has utterly failed in Ukraine, including its most advanced T-90 models which India is buying in large numbers.

Q: Considering that the Indian armor deployed against Pakistan mostly if not entirely comprises of the Russian export versions of T-72 and T-90 MBTs in various iterations, what does it mean for the Indian Army's capabilities to wage a short lightening war against a well armed, trained and entrenched adversary like Pakistan?

Q: What should Pakistan be doing in light of learnings drawn from Nagorno Karabakh and Ukraine conflicts, especially with regards to the use cases of armored formations in saturated threat environment?

Q: The Russian made armor has been mercilessly massacred by cheap anti tank solutions in Nagorno Karabakh, Syria and Ukraine, while some cases of German tanks in Turkish service being destroyed have also been noted. What sort of learnings can we draw from these trends?

Pakistan needs to do following steps.

1. First of Pakistan needs to make sure all our Tanks have trophy like system I mean like the one which Israel have. China already has developed one and Turkey is also developing them. Get them and integrate them with Tanks and APC.
2. Secondly get HJ-12 from China and Karoke from Turkey and other anti-tank weapons from China and Turkey with TOT and produce them in large numbers.
3. Invest in artillery specially GPS and satellite guided cells. Produce them in Pakistan.
4. Finally invest in drones. If we have 400 fighter jets force, make sure you have 1000 MALE and HALE UAV drone force and also than move to suicide drones.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Russian armor has utterly failed in Ukraine, including its most advanced T-90 models which India is buying in large numbers.

Q: Considering that the Indian armor deployed against Pakistan mostly if not entirely comprises of the Russian export versions of T-72 and T-90 MBTs in various iterations, what does it mean for the Indian Army's capabilities to wage a short lightening war against a well armed, trained and entrenched adversary like Pakistan?

Q: What should Pakistan be doing in light of learnings drawn from Nagorno Karabakh and Ukraine conflicts, especially with regards to the use cases of armored formations in saturated threat environment?

Q: The Russian made armor has been mercilessly massacred by cheap anti tank solutions in Nagorno Karabakh, Syria and Ukraine, while some cases of German tanks in Turkish service being destroyed have also been noted. What sort of learnings can we draw from these trends?

Russian armor has not failed in Ukraine. Anyone can try sending Merkavas or Abrams there, in the same scenarios, they will suffer equal losses. Deployment pattern, terrain limitations, defender capabilities...all have their distinct effects.

Q1
Capability is always there. Their deployment pattern, along with force multipliers will decide.

Q2
Operations which should be primarily infantry heavy operations, shouldnt be entrusted to armor in any case. Shortage of highly trained infantry should not force someone to use armor as a last resort. Armor shouldnt be used that way. We should play on the strengths of armor instead of going for stop gap solutions.

Q3
Complex problems sometimes have very cheap solutions. A good , well placed hit by a cheap RPG-7/26/29 can ensure a decent M kill which can surely lead to a K Kill on armor.

Defending forces generally have an advantage on the battlefield because they typically stay connected to their log lines and conduct their combat movmt under protection of their rear end artillery forces, anti tank elements and dominated airspace.

Indian armor will have to mobilize rapidly thus extending its log lines and risking exposure to hostile elements from land and air.



Does IA T-90s have APS or any form of protection from top attack elements?

Have mentioned before as well, APS in sub-continent terrain wont be of much use anyway......the terrain and doctrines of both countries dont allow that.

 

[Skull and Bones]

If Indian decision makers are smart, they can learn from the mistakes of Russia and plug the loopholes.

 

[kaykay]

If Indian decision makers are smart, they can learn from the mistakes of Russia and plug the loopholes.

True. Alot to learn from Russian invasion of Ukraine for everyone.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Russian armor has not failed in Ukraine. Anyone can try sending Merkavas or Abrams there, in the same scenarios, they will suffer equal losses. Deployment pattern, terrain limitations, defender capabilities...all have their distinct effects.

Lol, 5 of the 52 Merkavas that were hit were destroyed, 3 were facing Kornets to the side and 2 of those 5 were destroyed by massive IEDs, meanwhile every second Russian tank has its turret enter low earth orbit whenever its hit.

Merkava Mk4M has the Trophy APS which would negate virtually all of tank casualties, except for maybe anti-tank mine casualties, and even then the Merkava is way better suited than Russian tanks.

Same with the M1A2SEPv3 and above with Trophy attached.

 

[kingQamaR]

What good would be covering a large frontier if all those tanks could easily be destroyed?


Nah, combined arms efforts aren't enough to protect tanks, you need APS.

Does it protect against the top hit ATGMS. Javelins or even a missile launched by a drone

 

[Skull and Bones]

True. Alot to learn from Russian invasion of Ukraine for everyone.

Priority should be to fast track low cost Archer armed UAV with a 10 km range ATGM.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Lol, 5 of the 52 Merkavas that were hit were destroyed, 3 were facing Kornets to the side and 2 of those 5 were destroyed by massive IEDs, meanwhile every second Russian tank has its turret enter low earth orbit whenever its hit.

Merkava Mk4M has the Trophy APS which would negate virtually all of tank casualties, except for maybe anti-tank mine casualties, and even then the Merkava is way better suited than Russian tanks.

Same with the M1A2SEPv3 and above with Trophy attached.

IN Russia's case, they are facing the best weapons along with C4I---support, air cover etc which NATO has to offer. Merkavas of course didnt have to face Javelins as well, keep that in mind as well.

In your case, you guys are not facing a NATO level army / airforce, suitably equipped.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Does it protect against the top hit ATGMS. Javelins or even a missile launched by a drone

It protects up to a certain, classified high angle, from the looks of it in Ukraine Javelins can be intercepted by Trophy.

Same about missiles launched by drones, but that depends if the drones are far away, in that case the impact angle is quite low and it can be intercepted, or if the drone is above the tank, then the Trophy probably can't intercept it.

 

[kingQamaR]

Lol, 5 of the 52 Merkavas that were hit were destroyed, 3 were facing Kornets to the side and 2 of those 5 were destroyed by massive IEDs, meanwhile every second Russian tank has its turret enter low earth orbit whenever its hit.

Merkava Mk4M has the Trophy APS which would negate virtually all of tank casualties, except for maybe anti-tank mine casualties, and even then the Merkava is way better suited than Russian tanks.

Same with the M1A2SEPv3 and above with Trophy attached.

Shoot a few cheap rounds of RPG and proceed to shoot it with the Kornet after the trophy systems ran out of ammunition. Hope you’re taking notes!

 

[Beny Karachun]

IN Russia's case, they are facing the best weapons along with C4I---support, air cover etc which NATO has to offer. Merkavas of course didnt have to face Javelins as well, keep that in mind as well.

In your case, you guys are not facing a NATO level army / airforce, suitably equipped.

Israel develops the best ATGM, the Spike, Russia is lucky it doesn't face it.

You would think that if Israel develops the best ATGM out there, it would know how to create an APS to counter it.

NATO members are all buying Israeli active protection system, so if you hype NATO and de-hype our enemies, keep that in mind. Israel faced the best of Russia's ATGMs and humiliated them.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Israel faced the best of Russia's ATGMs and humiliated them.

Its not just the weapons but the pattern and organization in which they are deployed. You faced best Russian ATGMS in 1973 and recently as well. You fared badly in 1973 because the Arab ATGM assets were organized into proper heavy anti tank units, duly supported by air assets, artillery and dug in infantry. You fared well in recent actions because you are not facing a regular and well organized /well deployed enemy.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Shoot a few cheap rounds of RPG and proceed to shoot it with the Kornet after the trophy systems ran out of ammunition. Hope you’re taking notes!

Yeah, now get within 300 meters of the Merkava, try to fire more than one RPG shot at it before you get a 120mm shell up your face.

Trophy automatically detects the source of fire and moves the turret towards that location, let's see how the guys with the Kornet or RPG react when the cannon is suddenly turning towards them.

Anyways, what you're suggesting is an incredibely complicated thing to tactically achieve, only possible in absolutely perfect conditions.

Its not just the weapons but the pattern and organization in which they are deployed. You faced best Russian ATGMS in 1973 and recently as well. You fared badly in 1973 because the Arab ATGM assets were organized into proper heavy anti tank units, duly supported by air assets, artillery and dug in infantry. You fared well in recent actions because you are not facing a regular and well organized /well deployed enemy.

Lol, in 1973 we faced heavy casualties because ATGMs had no counter, Arab armies might as well have been guerillas with such missiles and we would still face heavy casualties.

Today the situation is different.

 

[Baburfromsarmarkand]

Pakistan needs to do following steps.

1. First of Pakistan needs to make sure all our Tanks have trophy like system I mean like the one which Israel have. China already has developed one and Turkey is also developing them. Get them and integrate them with Tanks and APC.
2. Secondly get HJ-12 from China and Karoke from Turkey and other anti-tank weapons from China and Turkey with TOT and produce them in large numbers.
3. Invest in artillery specially GPS and satellite guided cells. Produce them in Pakistan.
4. Finally invest in drones. If we have 400 fighter jets force, make sure you have 1000 MALE and HALE UAV drone force and also than move to suicide drones.

We need to create our own APS system, China wil never share its latest tech with us, since were in debt to the US. Tiny nation like Israel and South Korea are creating their own We have a massive militarty budget, COAS needs to take note and divert some funds toward development.

 

[kingQamaR]

It protects up to a certain, classified high angle, from the looks of it in Ukraine Javelins can be intercepted by Trophy.

Same about missiles launched by drones, but that depends if the drones are far away, in that case the impact angle is quite low and it can be intercepted, or if the drone is above the tank, then the Trophy probably can't intercept it.

Not good against decoy missiles ? To deplete your APS stock. Any way the big problems is that the anti tank weapons are advanced beyond the capabilities of modern armour. If you want a tank armoured enough to be impervious to the latest armour piercing weapons, it could weight nearly 80tons , have terrible mobility and cost a lot