Can India & Pakistan come out of the spiral of mutual destruction ?

[El Sidd]

It is beyond human endeavor to stop the inevitable, the ordained and the nature of our existence.

Don't have to over complicate. Indians cheer for wars all over the globe. Peace is existential threat to Indians and India

 

[Irfan AH]

Is there anything called introspection in (most) Pakistanis lives (referring to your second last sentence)?

Not trolling.

Not trolling.

Its not just pakistanis. indians also need introspection, in fact more than pakistanis. If there were mature brains on one side, it could have absorbed or contained the erratic stuff from other side. With the venture of politics in subcontinent, hindus developed a possessive mentality based on their numerical majority and this obsession has only gown over time.

 

[khail007]

Again, you are wrong (in my opinion, to be shortened henceforth to IMO).

Indian leadership was always secular, although Gandhi used his being himself identified very closely with the religious to win acceptance from the masses for them to be religious and true to their religion, as well as trained to see all patriots from all religions as equally patriotic.

It took the forces of the religious right 60 long years to reverse what Gandhi and his band had achieved in 32 years.

IMO, here you are also wrong.
Just compare the Muslims %age in 'Indian Leadership' and 'Muslim Leadership %age graph in India since partition. What your trying to hide will be clear as daylight to your ignorance.
Who installed the 'Hindu Pani'/'Muslim Pani' in United India. The divide was there for a long. Gandhi era was gone now the era is 'butcher of Gujrat'
Advocating such things which are irrelevant now in the Indian scenario is the useless bobbling of one's brain cells.

Speaking from lack of knowledge is a pitiable thing.

It is always a piece of paper; in the case of the United Kingdom, there is not even a piece of paper. It is always for nations to implement it in true spirit.

I can understand the gnawing envy that you feel when you consider the long period from 1947 to 2014 when the principle of secularism was followed. It is also easy to understand the relief when you see somebody violate that state of affairs and bring my country closer to where you wish it to be.

Do you know what part of the electorate brought in this government? Do you know where those seats came from?

Thinking to have more knowledge to compare with others is also o pitiable thing.

Again, IMO here you are miserably wrong, twisting tongue/word won't help you.
1947-2014 = Struggle to show the world the face of secularism by India, many postures were presented to the world like secularism / non-aligned movement, etc. Such things don't exist in the undeveloped 3rd world.

2014-To Date = secularism just died in a few years compared to the so-called 'image building' long cosmetic era. Now don't beat the dead drums. Face the ground reality and accept the bitter truth. The non-aligned shield is also lost in turbulent gusts of alignment.

 

[SIPRA]

He did, and he was a great leader, and a man of total integrity, but by invoking him, you are, intentionally, or unintentionally, choking off the discussion.

Muslims of Subcontinent may say to elite Hindus:

"Tu nain kaha na tha, kay man kishti pay bojh hoon
Aankhon ko ab na dhaanp, mujhay dooptay bhi daikh"

 

[Joe Shearer]

IMO, here you are also wrong.
Just compare the Muslims %age in 'Indian Leadership' and 'Muslim Leadership %age graph in India since partition. What your trying to hide will be clear as daylight to your ignorance.

Does it go by percentages? Then learn, O self-styled wise man, that in the state of West Bengal, the ministries, whether Congress, from 47 to 67 and then again for a short while from 72 to 78, then the Communists, for an unbroken 35 years, and then Mamata and her Trinamool, have all had one characteristic - they have all been dominated by three castes, that together constitute about 6% of the population of the state. If you ask the people of West Bengal, the ones who drove Modi out of the state in headlong flight, that did not interfere with the secular outlook of the state.

Your argument is that of a stranger walking around a house pointing out small details that he would like to blow up to major defects.

Who installed the 'Hindu Pani'/'Muslim Pani' in United India. The divide was there for a long. Gandhi era was gone now the era is 'butcher of Gujrat'

Who did? My Muslim vegetable vendor's children eat the food I cook for them without bothering. I eat at Paradise and at Bawarchi with no problems. You really should remember what Gandhi called Katherine Mayo's report on the condition of India, a 'drain inspector's report'.

Advocating such things which are irrelevant now in the Indian scenario is the useless bobbling of one's brain cells.

Of course it is, when those brain cells would be better spent going around in circles.

It is very clear, you do not have to hammer the point any longer, that there is nothing good that you hope can happen. The truth has nothing to do with it; your intense desire to see a nightmare become real has everything to do with it.

So, what to do? Shall I not express, what I believe to be truth?

By all means do, but by all means, spare me the discourtesy of being a discourteous guest.

"Yeh dastoor e zubaan bandi hae kaesa tairi mehfil main
Yahaan tau baat karnay ko tarasti hae zubaan mairi"

Dastoor to mehman ke liye hai. Yeh sawal unhe puchhta kyon hai?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Its not just pakistanis. indians also need introspection, in fact more than pakistanis

Agreed.

I believe we are discussing a complex matter here, and we cannot whip out tape measures and assign the amount of penitence that each should show. These greater and lesser measures mean so little. Suffice it to say that introspection is needed, for us to decide how much for ourselves, not for you, and for you to decide how much for yourselves.

If there were mature brains on one side, it could have absorbed or contained the erratic stuff from other side.

Let us make a start right here, right now.

'BE THE CHANGE THAT YOU WISH TO SEE'.

With the venture of politics in subcontinent, hindus developed a possessive mentality based on their numerical majority and this obsession has only gown over time.

That was, ironically, where it started, as early as 1905, by one measure, as early as Syed Ahmed Khan, by another. Why we still believe in today's world to generalise and say 'Hindus', and 'Muslims', is not a very mature way of looking at things.

Thinking to have more knowledge to compare with others is also o pitiable thing.

Who am I to stand against the multitude?

Again, IMO here you are miserably wrong, twisting tongue/word won't help you.

Let us be clear. One of us has come into this discussion without clean hands. You have already decided that whatever we say, however reasonable it is, you will find it defective and wrong. Why bother to respond to my posts? other than to satisfy yourself that after 14 years of muttering in silence, you have burst into song?

 

[jk007]

Its not just pakistanis. indians also need introspection, in fact more than pakistanis. If there were mature brains on one side, it could have absorbed or contained the erratic stuff from other side. With the venture of politics in subcontinent, hindus developed a possessive mentality based on their numerical majority and this obsession has only gown over time.

I really do not know what to say....keep going and holding same thoughts.
Please don't respond. Let's leave it here.

 

[khail007]

Does it go by percentages? Then learn, O self-styled wise man, that in the state of West Bengal, the ministries, whether Congress, from 47 to 67 and then again for a short while from 72 to 78, then the Communists, for an unbroken 35 years, and then Mamata and her Trinamool, have all had one characteristic - they have all been dominated by three castes, that together constitute about 6% of the population of the state. If you ask the people of West Bengal, the ones who drove Modi out of the state in headlong flight, that did not interfere with the secular outlook of the state.

Your argument is that of a stranger walking around a house pointing out small details that he would like to blow up to major defects.

I really forgot that I am in discussion with the 'wisest of the wise' in this world.

Don't teach me the history with and stop crying on spilled milk. Just drink a leftover in your glass.

Your argument is like a great-great-grandfather of a house owner, who came to the modernized house after long years and argued that the minor details of the previous house were way better. Ignoring that now it could not be reverted to past.

Who did? My Muslim vegetable vendor's children eat the food I cook for them without bothering. I eat at Paradise and at Bawarchi with no problems. You really should remember what Gandhi called Katherine Mayo's report on the condition of India, a 'drain inspector's report'.

You are so kind and accommodating ... ! but not all, your ancestor even doesn't let Muslims (called 'Muleech' un-pure in those days) step-in their kitchen. If ever this happens they use to do 'Poocha' with 'gobar + gao-mutra' mixed in mud to make the kitchen 'sanctify'.
Such were the root causes of the divide - don't distort the truth. It first takes at religious + cultural level in society and then politicos use such things for their advantages, but the base remains the same. So be wise to see the roots and don't make your wisest assumption here based on so-called 'vision'.

Of course it is, when those brain cells would be better spent going around in circles.

It is very clear, you do not have to hammer the point any longer, that there is nothing good that you hope can happen. The truth has nothing to do with it; your intense desire to see a nightmare become real has everything to do with it.

When cells go abnormal, they are known as in a cancerous state.

I will not buy your sick and lame arguments.

If you think of yourself as an Aristotle of India, you could end up somewhere like PM/President of India. PDF could not win you any such status.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I really forgot that I am in discussion with the 'wisest of the wise' in this world.

That is all right. Only repetitive mistakes are worthy of reproach.

Don't teach me the history with and stop crying on spilled milk. Just drink a leftover in your glass.

All together? Are we getting a little annoyed, perhaps?

 

[khail007]

Who am I to stand against the multitude?

Ask it to yourself.

Let us be clear. One of us has come into this discussion without clean hands. You have already decided that whatever we say, however reasonable it is, you will find it defective and wrong. Why bother to respond to my posts? other than to satisfy yourself that after 14 years of muttering in silence, you have burst into song?

This reciprocating, you are also accused of the same narrative 'Humka Sub Maloom' ... !
We both are on the opposite sides of the line - you are seeing it with your spectacles and I am with mine, and we both have own scenes - so don't pose yourself to be always right and consider others to be always wrong. Where you could not comprehend/answer, you resort to different theories and twisting discussion to be in your favor. which seems to be your general behavior and ego issue.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Your argument is like a great-great-grandfather of a house owner, who came to the modernized house after long years and argued that the minor details of the previous house were way better. Ignoring that now it could not be reverted to past.

What a brilliant metaphor!
However did you think of it? Astonishing!

This reciprocating, you are also accused of the same narrative 'Humka Sub Maloom' ...

More originality!!

We both are on the opposite sides of the line - you are seeing it with your spectacles and I am with mine, and we both have own scenes - so don't pose yourself to be always right and consider others to be always wrong.

Whyever not? After all, it is pretty obvious.

 

[khail007]

That is all right. Only repetitive mistakes are worthy of reproach.

Again it is a reciprocating statement.

All together? Are we getting a little annoyed, perhaps?

Again you are asking such questions to others, which you have to answer.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Again it is a reciprocating statement.


Again you are asking such questions to others, which you have to answer.

Actually, I don't. I always retain the right to decide what I should respond to and what I should not take into account.

 

[khail007]

What a brilliant metaphor!
However did you think of it? Astonishing!

Did you think of in the first place, why you got it?

More originality!!

If you could understand.

Whyever not? After all, it is pretty obvious.

It is always better to be obvious on both sides - but usually, it is not.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I rather suspect you have run out of things to say. Think about what you are doing here, in this argument, and if you are doing anything that either strengthens your case, or informs others.