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Can even a one-sided collapse crash China's economy?

A Journey To China’s Largest Ghost City

By Wade Shepard @vagabondjourney

“We discovered that the most populated country on earth is building houses, districts, and cities with no one in them,” began a report on 60 Minutes which aired on March 3rd, 2013. The news program’s timeless correspondent, Lesley Stahl, ventured out to the city of Zhengzhou accompanied by the Hong Kong based financial adviser, Gillem Tulloch, and got the low down on China’s ghost city phenomenon.

For the past few years I’ve been chasing reports of ghost cities citiesaround China, but I rarely ever find one that qualifies for this title. Though the international media claims that China is building cities for nobody I often find something very different upon arrival. The New South China Mallhad a lot of empty shops but it turned out to be a thriving entertainment center, Dantu showed that an initially stagnant new city can become populated, and I found that Xinyang’s new district, a place called a ghost city since 2010, wasn’t even close to being built yet. The 60 Minutes report served as portent that there are really are large scale ghost cities in China. Or so it appeared.

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A Journey To China's Largest Ghost City

I find it hard to believe that with 1.3b people, there would be such things as ghost towns. Even if it's temporarily unoccuppied, China builds for the future not the present.
 
Yes exactly. Sox was implemented after Enron but the fact is no matter how good your auditors are, they are not able to catch fraud. That's why these fraudsters, and I mean the Accountants always have a "cover their ***" qualifed statement when they issue a qualified or unqualified letter after the audit.

Mark my words, there will more Enrons in the future.

Yes, accountants are good at window dressing and off balance sheet transactions, it's hard to discover, especially in China, auditors are not really independent.
 
A Journey To China’s Largest Ghost City

By Wade Shepard @vagabondjourney

“We discovered that the most populated country on earth is building houses, districts, and cities with no one in them,” began a report on 60 Minutes which aired on March 3rd, 2013. The news program’s timeless correspondent, Lesley Stahl, ventured out to the city of Zhengzhou accompanied by the Hong Kong based financial adviser, Gillem Tulloch, and got the low down on China’s ghost city phenomenon.

For the past few years I’ve been chasing reports of ghost cities citiesaround China, but I rarely ever find one that qualifies for this title. Though the international media claims that China is building cities for nobody I often find something very different upon arrival. The New South China Mallhad a lot of empty shops but it turned out to be a thriving entertainment center, Dantu showed that an initially stagnant new city can become populated, and I found that Xinyang’s new district, a place called a ghost city since 2010, wasn’t even close to being built yet. The 60 Minutes report served as portent that there are really are large scale ghost cities in China. Or so it appeared.

...

A Journey To China's Largest Ghost City
i would have doubt the interview to, but it includes on of China's prominent builders and people to people interview
some chinese interviews
Real Estate in China: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly


Real Estate Panic Arrived, First-Tier Cities Slump 40% - YouTube

Property sales decline in China - YouTube


I find it hard to believe that with 1.3b people, there would be such things as ghost towns. Even if it's temporarily unoccuppied, China builds for the future not the present.
people need money to occupy houses, currently most of them are out of poor/lower-middle's reach
 
Firstly let me make this clear, i speak as a student of economics not as a India/british

Property bubble exits Yes- Why ?
there are two different stories here, property bubble near eastern cost and property bubble near western/central china

Property bubble near cities like Shanghai and Beijing or other big cities are driven by investors, basically family are investing to catch in on every growing property market and to make quick bucks with Rentals

On western/central china the situation is different, here local government are striving to make complete their goal of development. Cities are built and funded by the local govt but the prices are so high the people who it was built for (rural population) cannot simple afford it. China is known for building in advance for future needs, but here it is difficult unless property rate's are slashed extensively
they also have interview with one of china's leading builders
Cost of rising labour cost is inevitable, as people get richer, they will demand more

Spare this forum your half baked crap. Home prices is western china are not inflated like 1st tier city.
Instead of posting useless video, go back to class for more lessons. Look at the garbage you wrote below!!!!!

that's why there is emphasis of a self correcting system, if in a open economy that money market is tight (no easy availability of fund) that pushes the rate of borrowing higher, which means people would borrow less or paymore. This would autocorrect, the best thing to do is let market inject more cash and cool down for a while, this autocorrect the inflation aswell.

Whether money market is tight or loose, that depends on the central bank's monetary policy. Do you even know what is monetary policy?


here is the catch, US prints money on debt bonds sir, a promise to pay it's citizens. Its currency is accept all over the world and its bond have the highest ratings.Its still a stupid idea, but hey, the world is buying US debt bonds and fueling their economy.

chinese currency is circulated in china only, inflation would surpass the value of currency. You cannot point a gun at foreign investor and force them to buy your debt bond. But hell if you could do it, that would keep Chinese economy aflot too

To do that, Yuan would have to be liberalized and put a market exchangeable currency, thats where the problem starts. Supply and demand all over the world affects the market, but hang-on derivative traders are the major players here. They even screw up US dollar. China can force the world to pay in Yuan, that can keep it aflot, but the price of yuan vs dollar or yuan vs euro is still market controlled and changes with economic news and sentiments of people trading world over.

Dumbo, printing money is a layman's term. The ONLY way to print money is to issue bond, there is no other way, Whether Chinese Yuan is circulated within china or not, it's irrelevant. As long as central bank has the enough reserves, the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money. If the central bank lacks reserves, then bond will be sold in the international market.

USD is the world's reserve currency, no one has to ability to corner USD, even if you pull all the investment banks together. So what derivatives trader you talking about? This is not Bollywood.


Two reasons, US fed had enough money to buy debt/mortgage bonds and people all over the world bought it too, including people in US the most.

This will depend on the chinese people to buy bonds, Chinese central bank also has alot of cash, but debt in china is increasing, hell even Chinese railways is in debt of $600 billion, mind you unlike US these are Govt debts, 4trillion - $600 billion is alot, simultaneously if the property bubble crashes it catastrophic, people have put their live earnings into investing in property. You see these are chain of commands that leads to the fall, just like the Domino

Spewing garbage like a retard, China public debt is internally owned. Do you even what that means?
CHinese railway debt? Capitalization on every infrastructure project is thru debt, meaning issuing bond. Chinese govt can afford the debt, hence, no outside investors is needed. It's only when you shit broke, then you go to private sector or international investor, like what your Modi is doing now, dumbass!

And if one day these investors call their debt, you're fucked. Like what happened to Greece and Spain. Go learn what some basic marco economic.


You have answered it yourself, it confidence that drives world market.

Chinese debt runs into trillions, govt is spending heavily to fuel growth. In case of a collapse, to reinvest the faith, govt would first have to pay trillions of dollars to its public to clear of it debt. China railways, china steel, according to bloomberg local chinese govt debt is $2.9 trillion alone and there are many more ... the problem that they are state control aggravates the problem, it sends out a signal that the govt has failed not a company, that will bring down the confidence my friend.

Chinese debt runs into trillions? Chinese debts are internally owned!!!! Every bond issued is locally owned by state companies and backed up by CHinese govt reserves. They will never be called. Two, the govt has $4 trillion in reserves.


Wrong, GDP per capita pays an important role, their population is small compared to china and richer compared to that of china.
A fall in these countries, is when the govt interferes. In china it will be the govt coming in to save the govt, kind of strange ?

Incomprehensible.

Agreed, as long as viable solutions come out economy stays afloat.
But you also need to remember that a fall is triggered by one incident, a statement from PNB Paribas about no liquidity in US market shaked the world economy. But the refusal of george bush to bailout banks from a $4 billion debt, made the world lose trillions !

What one incident? It was an accumulation of multiple incidents. The market was already in turmoil. The underlying issue was due to Greenspan's accommodative monetary policy and the lack of regulation by SEC. 1) too easy to take a loan, 2) commercial bank capitalization is too low 3) Hedge fund and derivatives market were unregulated.

And NO, govt is NOT obligated to bail out each and every company. It's a free market, if you are insolvent, you file for chapter 11. Lehman brother wasn't bailed out, and rightly so.

But when it was clear that the some banks are too big to fail, Bush and Paulson approved a $700 billion bailout package for the entire wall street.

Stop acting smart here, don't talk shit that you have no clue about.
 
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Dumbo, printing money is a layman's term. The ONLY way to print money is to issue bond, there is no other way, Whether Chinese Yuan is circulated within china or not, it's irrelevant. As long as central bank has the enough reserves, the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money. If the central bank lacks reserves, then bond will be sold in the international market.

No, it's the opposite. To inject cash into the market, the Federal Reserve buys bonds in open market operations (it does not issue bonds; only the Treasury issues bonds), and if it doesn't have enough cash on its balance sheet to buy the bonds, it prints (or rather, digitally creates) the necessary cash. The Fed then has bonds, and there is magically more cash in existence than there was before.

Countries only sell bonds denominated outside of their home currency when the local market cannot absorb the issue, or if an international tender can provide advantageous terms vs. a domestic issue (rate, duration, covenants).

Perhaps you'll be a bit more humble next time instead of throwing around trash talk. To quote you:

Stop acting smart here, don't talk shit that you have no clue about.
 
i would have doubt the interview to, but it includes on of China's prominent builders and people to people interview
some chinese interviews
Real Estate in China: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly


Real Estate Panic Arrived, First-Tier Cities Slump 40% - YouTube
Property sales decline in China - YouTube



people need money to occupy houses, currently most of them are out of poor/lower-middle's reach

These people / analyst just talk. They say this and that but when it doesnt happen there are no consequences. So their opinion is just good as anyone.

Gordon Chang is probably more reliable.
:cheesy:
 
No, it's the opposite. To inject cash into the market, the Federal Reserve buys bonds in open market operations (it does not issue bonds; only the Treasury issues bonds), and if it doesn't have enough cash on its balance sheet to buy the bonds, it prints (or rather, digitally creates) the necessary cash. The Fed then has bonds, and there is magically more cash in existence than there was before.

Countries only sell bonds denominated outside of their home currency when the local market cannot absorb the issue, or if an international tender can provide advantageous terms vs. a domestic issue (rate, duration, covenants).

Perhaps you'll be a bit more humble next time instead of throwing around trash talk. To quote you:

What opposite? You're essentially rephrasing what I said, in a more detailed manner.
"As long as central bank has the enough reserves, the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money. "


Perhaps you'll be a bit more humble next time instead of throwing around trash talk. To quote you:

I stand by what I said, that guy is talking shit that he has no clue about.

Respect is earned, not given.
 
i would have doubt the interview to, but it includes on of China's prominent builders and people to people interview
some chinese interviews
Real Estate in China: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly


Real Estate Panic Arrived, First-Tier Cities Slump 40% - YouTube
Property sales decline in China - YouTube



people need money to occupy houses, currently most of them are out of poor/lower-middle's reach

Most of those unoccupied houses have already been sold. People don't move in partly because the supporting infrastructures are not there yet, and partly because the buyers have their primary resident elsewhere, usually in the old city. It takes couple years of development before the people from the old city center move into those new area. The famous "ghost city" of Ordos is good example where you see alot of activity today.
 
What opposite? You're essentially rephrasing what I said, in a more detailed manner.
"As long as central bank has the enough reserves, the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money. "




I stand by what I said, that guy is talking shit that he has no clue about.

Respect is earned, not given.

You said:

"The ONLY way to print money is to issue bond, there is no other way, Whether Chinese Yuan is circulated within china or not, it's irrelevant. As long as central bank has the enough reserves, the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money. If the central bank lacks reserves, then bond will be sold in the international market."

Just clarifying that printing money and issuing bonds are not the same, so to say "the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money" is not correct. The Treasury issues bonds, the central bank prints the money. In addition, the choice of international issuance is not driven by central bank reserves.

Regardless, give respect, get respect. You may say something perfectly intelligent, but if it's buried with trash talk, no one will take it seriously.
 
You said:

"The ONLY way to print money is to issue bond, there is no other way, Whether Chinese Yuan is circulated within china or not, it's irrelevant. As long as central bank has the enough reserves, the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money. If the central bank lacks reserves, then bond will be sold in the international market."

Just clarifying that printing money and issuing bonds are not the same, so to say "the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money" is not correct. The Treasury issues bonds, the central bank prints the money. In addition, the choice of international issuance is not driven by central bank reserves.

Regardless, give respect, get respect. You may say something perfectly intelligent, but if it's buried with trash talk, no one will take it seriously.

Many people use the term "printing money" but we know it is issuing of debt. In fact the US monetizes its own debt to a tune of $70b/month.
 
Many people use the term "printing money" but we know it is issuing of debt. In fact the US monetizes its own debt to a tune of $70b/month.

You may casually call it that, but it's not correct. In fact, when you say "monetize the debt," monetize is the print, debt is the issuance. It's helpful in these discussions to be correct and precise, especially when calling someone else an idiot.
 
You said:

"The ONLY way to print money is to issue bond, there is no other way, Whether Chinese Yuan is circulated within china or not, it's irrelevant. As long as central bank has the enough reserves, the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money. If the central bank lacks reserves, then bond will be sold in the international market."

Just clarifying that printing money and issuing bonds are not the same, so to say "the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money" is not correct. The Treasury issues bonds, the central bank prints the money. In addition, the choice of international issuance is not driven by central bank reserves.

Regardless, give respect, get respect. You may say something perfectly intelligent, but if it's buried with trash talk, no one will take it seriously.

Of course, printing money and issuing bonds are not the same. But to print money, you HAVE to issue bond. Treasury issues bond only when the central bank is ready to buy them, it's a coordinated move called Quantitative Easing. Hence, "the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money" Don't quote me out of context,

Regarding international issuance, T-bill are international. But most Chinese bonds are not. People's bank of China has to buy them. Again, don't quote me out of context.

That guy's been going around dispensing his crap about Chinese debts, it's time he get a fitting rebuttal. Respect is earned, not given. Apply to me as well.
 
Of course, printing money and issuing bonds are not the same. But to print money, you HAVE to issue bond. Treasury issues bond only when the central bank is ready to buy them, it's a coordinated move called Quantitative Easing. Hence, "the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money" Don't quote me out of context,

Regarding international issuance, T-bill are international. But most Chinese bonds are not. People's bank of China has to buy them. Again, don't quote me out of context.

That guy's been going around dispensing his crap about Chinese debts, it's time he get a fitting rebuttal. Respect is earned, not given. Apply to me as well.

No, you are still incorrect. You do not have to issue bonds to print money. The Federal Reserve can buy existing bonds in open market operations and print money to pay for them. Quantitative Easing is monetizing the debt, not simply printing money (edit: to be precise, monetizing incremental debt).

Why do you assume that the PBOC has to buy Chinese bonds? Ever heard of investment banks? Ever heard of institutional investors? China has those too, believe it or not.

I quoted you in context; you were incorrect. I will apply your "respect is earned" slogan as directed.
 
No, you are still incorrect. You do not have to issue bonds to print money. The Federal Reserve can buy existing bonds in open market operations and print money to pay for them. Quantitative Easing is monetizing the debt, not simply printing money.

Why do you assume that the PBOC has to buy Chinese bonds? Ever heard of investment banks? Ever heard of institutional investors? China has those too, believe it or not.

I quoted you in context; you were incorrect. I will apply your "respect is earned" slogan as directed.

Playing around with semantics don't win you argument. Bond floating in open market don't just pop out, they are issued by the Treasury. QE is a coordinated move by both the central bank and the treasury.

It's a fact that PBC buys most of them. Try harder, shift your goalpost further. Do I know what is investment bank? Go back and read my 1st post again. Or do you need me to tell you what is Glass-Steagall Act just so to differentiate the types of banks.

Yes, you quoted me out of context. I said, "Whether Chinese Yuan is circulated within china or not, it's irrelevant. As long as central bank has the enough reserves, the Govt's treasury department is safe to issue bond/print money....."

I just applied it too.
 
These people / analyst just talk. They say this and that but when it doesnt happen there are no consequences. So their opinion is just good as anyone.

Gordon Chang is probably more reliable.
:cheesy:
sir, it is these people that warn, and if nothing happens it is because govt taken corrective measures. If these people won't forsee than a crash would be imminent
 
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