Cameras installed in domestic UAVs too heavy

[Archdemon]

Cameras installed in domestic UAVs too heavy

 

[Awesome]

20,000 is not so bad to start mass production in and lighter imaging systems are not too hard to acquire/make could be added on, onto later models.

Also if they are selling outside, people might want to purchase their customized version with their own set of imaging systems.

 

[VCheng]

To reduce the weight of the camera system as part of an overall weight reduction program to raise the operational ceiling would be a relatively easy task once more experience has been gained.

 

[cabatli_53]

Cameras installed in domestic UAVs too heavy

The times when Turkey ordered Heron UAV, Heron's were operational use in Israeli Army and The developer offers Heron UAV as a succesfull proven platform for export markets but Israeli institute can't deliver Heron's with AselFlir-300T to Turkey in time and The program delayed too many years (From 2005 to 2011). At trials, Heron UAV couldn't reach more than 21000-22000ft and so Israel had to modify the engine to gain more power in similar weight ratios to meet the TurAf demands.

At present, TAI is developing a completely new UAV called ANKA which will be one of the best in its class. According to development schedule, There are 5 prototype Ankas produced. First 3 and Final 2 Anka prototypes are different than eachothers and The final 10 Anka's to be produced under serial production phase in this year will be called as ANKA-A. A series ANKAs will just carry Aselsan made 300T optic, While Anka-B to be produced in second part of 2013, will be the UAV which will carry Aselsan SAR radar and other usefull things to an altitude around 30000ft. Final 2 prototypes of total 5 ANKA's (p004 and p005) have a lower weight (aprox. 100kg less than p001-p002-p003) than first prototypes with some wing aerodynamic modifications as well to increase the endurance. TEI is also in final phase to provide more powerfull ANKA engine in similar weight ratio.

As a note: As far as I know, Anka P001 reached 23000ft in December 2011. Noone knows the details of the final Anka prototypes.


The first lowered weight Anka P004

 

[Archdemon]

delayed too many years (From 2005 to 2011)

I cannot understand, this is utter nonsense

 

[LegionnairE]

delayed too many years (From 2005 to 2011)

I cannot understand, this is utter nonsense

Yup, you have failed to deliver Herons in schedule. Big time. You have even paid compensation for this if im not mistaken

You come here posting Today's Zaman crap Have a look at this:
Heron UAV delay fuels rising dispute between Turkey, Israel

 

[ironman]

The times when Turkey ordered Heron UAV, Heron's were operational use in Israeli Army and The developer offers Heron UAV as a succesfull proven platform for export markets but Israeli institute can't deliver Heron's with AselFlir-300T to Turkey in time and The program delayed too many years (From 2005 to 2011). At trials, Heron UAV couldn't reach more than 21000-22000ft and so Israel had to modify the engine to gain more power in similar weight ratios to meet the TurAf demands.

A little confusion here.. Isn't the same Aselflir-300T mentioned here in the article which is heavier for Anka. Then how can you blame Israel when it is not even carried by your platform.

At present, TAI is developing a completely new UAV called ANKA which will be one of the best in its class. According to development schedule, There are 5 prototype Ankas produced. First 3 and Final 2 Anka prototypes are different than eachothers and The final 10 Anka's to be produced under serial production phase in this year will be called as ANKA-A. A series ANKAs will just carry Aselsan made 300T optic, While Anka-B to be produced in second part of 2013, will be the UAV which will carry Aselsan SAR radar and other usefull things to an altitude around 30000ft. Final 2 prototypes of total 5 ANKA's (p004 and p005) have a lower weight (aprox. 100kg less than p001-p002-p003) than first prototypes with some wing aerodynamic modifications as well to increase the endurance. TEI is also in final phase to provide more powerfull ANKA engine in similar weight ratio.

As a note: As far as I know, Anka P001 reached 23000ft in December 2011. Noone knows the details of the final Anka prototypes.

You didn't pay much attention to the article right.. It clearly says the Anka A will be delayed by 2 years if the Turkish Armed Forces stick with 30000 ft.

I think TAI made bad choice of engine for the Anka. While comparing with India's Rustom a MALE UAV, Weighs 720 kg carries a Lycoming 320 160hp. Anka, a 1.5 ton carries Centurion 2.0 engine with only 135 hp. That too a heavier one.

 

[TheCommander]

To be honest, the camera was the first thing drew my attention when I first saw the ANKA. I had thought that the camera (Aselflir) was bigger than camera on Predator, but I never though the Aselflir (I do not know it is weight) could cause problem for ANKA to fly at the altitude of 30,000 feet.

As Cabatli mentioned, Heron was failed to fly at 30,000 feet with Aselflir and IAI had blamed Aselflir for the failure. After that IAI modified the engine to gain more power in similar weight ratios to meet our demands.

I still do not know if ANKA could not fly because of the weight of Aselflir. I think we need to modify the engine or we can reduce to size and weight of the camera so that ANKA can fly at 30,000 feet. This kind of problem can occur all the time. This is like stage of crawling, after more attempts we will get the best solution for sure.

By the way, there are lots of nations who want to see our failure on this project and Israel is the number one country who is eager seeing us to fail on this project. But we will do it nomatter what, nomatter how, nomatter when.

 

[Azatavrear]

Normally weight alone is not a problem but also location on the airframe (Center of Gravity).... lowering the weight but moving that same weight further from CG (like the new nose camera location) can have a worst effect than just being overweight because such a configuration, if not designed/calculated correctly, will put the aircraft not only over gross weight but also out of normal CG limits making it impossible to control in flight especially during low airspeed flights like landings and take offs.

It might be best for Turkey to continue receiving advises and technical information from the Israeli defense contractors if they want to have a viable domestic UAV.

 

[cabatli_53]

A little confusion here.. Isn't the same Aselflir-300T mentioned here in the article which is heavier for Anka. Then how can you blame Israel when it is not even carried by your platform.

There is no confusion in here. What I am talking about is pure clear. There was a tender which Israel won it. To open a tender, You firstly release a bid to all who wants to interests the requirements Tender papers clearly states and the institutes who interested in this tender, order the paper to check the detail requirements, contribution of partners, offset obligations and performance criterias. If the platform the institute has, meet the requreiemts of tender wishes revealed with bid and If Institute accept obligations such as offsets and other contribution of otherside, Then They agree on joining into tender with a satisfactory offer. After this period, Costumer just select one of the best among them.

What I tell is Integration of 300T on the platform to be choosed isn' secret in this deal. Turkey didn't make a final surprise but told the integration of 300T and other obligations provider has to obey. At the beggining of the story, It was Israeli side which accepted and guaranteed Turkish side to reach the specifications in time put by Turkish officials which was revealed with tender and It was the Israeli side who failed to deliver the platform in time and had to pay compensations.

The most interesting part of the story is, Israel couldn't deliver a proven system to Turkish side in times and had to go some modifications so The project delayed many years. On the other hand, Turkey develops completely new, bigger and assertive UAV with same FLIR system and so Some delays are normal and never mean a failure...

You didn't pay much attention to the article right.. It clearly says the Anka A will be delayed by 2 years if the Turkish Armed Forces stick with 30000 ft.

Serial production order for 10 Anka-A has already been given...

 

[Ir.Tab.]

Powerplant of Anka:
Heavy fuel engine (155 hp )

Power plant of Predator:
Maximum 84 kW (115 hp) at 5,800 rpm, with 5 minute time limit; 73 kW (100 hp) continuous

Predator could carry at least 98 kg at 2 hardpoints (2 x AGM-114 Hellfire) in addition to its camera and other systems.

The text in Today Zaman says: camera "... weigh between 100 and 120 kilograms. The weight of the cameras has proven to be too much for the Ankas,"

This is while ANKA is still unarmed. Comparing the power plants of Anka and Predator show that the main problem (if exist any, not officially approved yet) is not the camera weight. On the other hand Anka, with flight endurance of 24 hours could not be an insufficient aerodynamic design. Something is wrong!

 

[500]

After this period, Costumer just select one of the best among them.

Turkey had no any alternatives beside Israel. Americans refused to integrate heavy payload into Predator.

The most interesting part of the story is, Israel couldn't deliver a proven system to Turkish side in times and had to go some modifications so The project delayed many years. On the other hand, Turkey develops completely new, bigger and assertive UAV with same FLIR system and so Some delays are normal and never mean a failure...

Methinks integrating heavy payload into a smaller UAV is more complicated task.

Also during the delay Turkey used leased Herons, so Turkey did not lose anything. But there were lots of complains in Turkish press.

On the other hand when Boeing delayed its AWACS for same period (which, unlike Heron had alternatives - Phalcon, Erieye, KJ-200), there were very little complains. Looks like these complains were politically motivated.

 

[cabatli_53]

Powerplant of Anka:
Heavy fuel engine (155 hp )

Power plant of Predator:
Maximum 84 kW (115 hp) at 5,800 rpm, with 5 minute time limit; 73 kW (100 hp) continuous

Predator could carry at least 98 kg at 2 hardpoints (2 x AGM-114 Hellfire) in addition to its camera and other systems.

The text in Today Zaman says: camera "... weigh between 100 and 120 kilograms. The weight of the cameras has proven to be too much for the Ankas,"

This is while ANKA is still unarmed. Comparing the power plants of Anka and Predator show that the main problem (if exist any, not officially approved yet) is not the camera weight. On the other hand Anka, with flight endurance of 24 hours could not be an insufficient aerodynamic design. Something is wrong!

There are other factors you have to consider While seperating the engine power to payload. The difference may cause about additional weights of Flir and take-off weight so Anka's more Powerfull engine waste some part of energy to carry those additional weight instead of carrying missiles When It is compared with Predator-A.


Predator-B FLIR Weight: 115kg, Engine: 900hp, Take-off weight: 4800kg
Predator-A FLIR Weight: 70kg, Engine: 110hp, Take-off weight: 1040kg, Endurance: 24 hours
Anka-A FLIR Weight: 116kg, Engine: 155hp, Take-off Weight: 1500kg, Endurance: 24 hours

When you consider all those parameters, We may reach that Aerodynamic and wing design of ANKA which enables to keep all those weights on air aprox. 24 hours is really succesfull.

 

[cabatli_53]

This is while ANKA is still unarmed. On the other hand Anka, with flight endurance of 24 hours could not be an insufficient aerodynamic design. Something is wrong!

Anka-A will be manufactured for surveillance missions, only with E/O 300T, Additions to A Variant, Anka-B with lower weight and more powerfull aerodynamic modifications will carry Aselsan SAR radars as well. Officials mention some other ANKA variants such as EW and Jammer ANKA's but I didn't heart much about Armed ANKA in this design.

You know TAI is working on a new and huge HALE UAV based on ANKA experiences and this UAV to be produced will directly join into inventory as Armed. According to TAI, HALE ANKA will be tried to be completed for trials until 2016. The specifications revealed by TAI is as following;

Take off weight: 5 tonnes
Payload: 1 tonnes

 

[Ir.Tab.]

... is really succesfull.

Today Zaman has proved to be the "wrong" thing. I could still remember those "kitalar arasi" missile things!

In my opinion, the text below is more similar to that the staff of TAI has probably said to Today Zaman: (only pure imagination, do not take it serious)
"If we arm Anka with cirit guided rocket system, considering the heavier camera system developed by Aselsan compare to western systems, the flight altitude could not remain 30000ft."