Cairo Arab-Israel war museum.(free trip)

[agentny17]

We need to advocate democracy, human rights, freedom, and way way way better education in our countries. Then together develop a connected scientific research institutes, programs that work together, then together develop our own industry, factories. We have everything, just have to plan the work, then work the plan. and be more organized, and fair.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Anybody who insults others, to make himself feel better is a disgrace to his own people, just ignore him, and don't insult everything related to him. Him saying what he said doesn't make Egypt or Arabs less or more of what they already are, and def. doesn't make him better.

Discussing war history in an honest way is never meant as insult.

Egyptians museum is not presenting history in an honest way and thus Egyptians think they won the war. Reality was exactly opposite.

However Egyptian army realized the folly of attacking Israel and thus made a long term peace. I hope Egyptians can keep that peace in future as well.

Peace.

 

[Desert Fox]

But how is that different from Egypt's situation. Do you actually believe that the US is our ally ? OR did you think the former Soviet Union is our ally ?. We all suck, our history is full of failures, with little to no positives. We should work TOGETHER, otherwise it will always be the same.... Countries like Turkey, Iran, Egypt, Pakistan that has some more industrial bases should seek the help of the oil rich counties that have more financial resouces like the gulf countries, and work TOGETHER to develop our industry. This will be the only way you guys can counter India, and we can counter Israel, and so on. If that happens, just be united in a form like the Europian Union, and advocate a better education, idustry, accepting eachothers and just helping eachother we would be 10000000% better, all of us. Just work as a team, and be better, all of to become better, not just one or two nation.... Seeing how we argue in this places gives me no to little hope for a better future. God help people who help themselves, not who ask for help from other nations.

^^^I agree with what you said above and i can only wish it was true, but the situation is a lot complex than that. Turkey is a NATO member, Saudi/GCC's can't get along with Iran and vice versa (age old Sunni Shia rivalry), Egypt is too far away and probably heavily monitered by USA/Israel, Iran is under sanctions etc. And not to mention that when Pakistan tried to help Libya develop nuclear bomb the Libyans sold us out by telling the UN/USA that Pakistan is helping North Korea, Iran and Libya and Pakistan got sanctioned. The only reliable ally for Pakistan was, is, and will remain China InshaAllah.

 

[AUz]

Very good my dear poster. Yes. Bunch of SR-71s landed in Egypt and encircled the whole of 3rd army. Hhahhahahahah.

Israel didn't have to send a single soldier to cross Suez and enter Egypt. NOT!



peace.

Hey you kid,what is your age? Why didn't you reply to my complete post,dumbo. I mentioned SR-71 because of a reason. *click click* Reconnaissance for opening a new front or finding gaps b/w enemy's lines *click click* Get it? Alas,your too young to comprehend anything.You genius,I asked you to read the biography of the man itself..General Aeriel Sharon ! Do you know MORE than him? Heck! he was the commander of Israeli Army which encircled the 3rd Army

I wish you were reading some history and not pulling things out of your know where?

A hat! off course. (get your mind out of dirty places )

Oh funny..grow up kid..it's an international forum for heaven's sake !

 

[Desert Fox]

Hey you kid,what is your age? Why didn't you reply to me complete post,dumbo. I mentioned SR-71 because of a reason..but Alas,your too young to comprehend anything.You retarded dumbass,I asked you to read the biography of the man itself..General Aeriel Sharon ! Do you know MORE than him? Heck! he was the commander of Israeli Army which encircled the 3rd Army



Oh funny..grow up kid..it's an international forum for heaven's sake !

I think we can debate without having to resort to insults/personal attacks

 

[EGYPT2100]

sorry to say as we was part of that wars then we also part of lessors lolz i think many forget here .

lossers !!!!!!!!!!!

how can Egypt be alosser in 1973

you say that israel srround the 3rd army , that is true , but you forgot that the israelis were also srrounded by the egyption army from outside ,the israelis were in a Checkmate setwation , we were able to finish the israeli attack by moving 5 anti air craft sam trucks + 20 stinger soldiers to avvoid any israeli air attack then we make just one air strick by our TU-16 to finish that israeli mistake , but that time the americans were helping israel by an air bridge so that the soviets warned america that if america didn't stop it's air bridge , they ( soviets ) will send troops to Egypt to re balance the powers

so that america desided to start making ceasefire decision in the UN with the sovviets

before the UN took that decision israel isolate the 3rd egyption army part in the west bank , but the other part on the east bank was not islated then they took every thing they need from the 2nd army part in the east bank

the 5th army was totally isolating the israelis from outside

seuz city was apart of isolating the israeli army

israelis tried to enter seuz city so they can shift attention that they would be able to reach cairo , so that the 5th army move to block the cairo seuz road completlly . but that didn't happen because the israelis didn't succes in invading seuz city

that time the UN took the 1st ceasefire decision

egypt approved

israel approved , but on land they didn't care they contiued in there conqest tring to make a probaganda victory by cutting off the water for seuz city in order to have it , but they suffered heavy casualties , so they tried to do the same to ismaelia city not too far from suez city , again they loose exept controlling an open desert and small villagase with peacfull un armed citizins

the sovviet sow that and sow israel were armed there ariha balistic missiles with nukes fiew days early

so they armed there bombers with nukes & nuklear ballistic wepons and set it ready to fire

america call the sovviets to avvoid nuklear war and promissed it will stop it's aids for israel if israel didn't cease fire immediatly

then the UN took the 2nd ceasefire decision which was confermed by both egypt & israel

after that negotiations took place in kelo 101

 

[agentny17]

One thing you must do is to not get emotional when it comes to war history. Because if you do, then you won't learn anything from history, and thus bound to repeat the same mistakes.


I hope I am not moving away from the main topic of the thread by giving a response here.

Dear poster,

you must remember that Pakistan is like Israel when it comes to the neighborhood. Just like Israel we are surrounded by big mean enemies who 24/7 365 days a year plan for our destruction.

Just like Arabs think Israel has no right to exist, so do some of our "very" big neighbors.

Just like Israel we face enemies that are 10+ times bigger than our size.

In this environment even if we can hold our own, that is some accomplishment. And hats off to our soldiers and officers who give ultimate sacrifices on almost every occasion.

Now back to your questions.


1. Pakistan made one attempt (militarily) in 1965 to get back Kashmir. We failed for obvious reasons. In hindsight it was a mistake. We should not have embarked on that task. It was impossible to win against 10+ times bigger enemy. However when the war of 1965 ended, we were on pretty even grounds with our opponent regardless of the huge difference in size.

On the other hand 1967 Arab-Israeli war did not end on even grounds. Arabs lost almost on every front and lost big time. Egypt lost the whole Sinai, Syria lost Golan, and Jordan lost the west bank etc.

That's why dear poster you should not have brought these questions up. If you have specific observations about Paksitan wars, then please open a separate thread. This one is about Arab-Israeli wars. Thank you.


2. War on terror / drone war in Pakistan's tribal areas.

Dear poster we made a mistake when we allowed Arab Muj to settle in our border area. We mistakenly thought they are our brothers, and in return these dimwits started using our land to launch attacks on the West.

Not only that Arabs have convinced many of our poor tribals that they are fighting Islamic war, and thus they have gained support of the local tribals.

As a result, both Pakistani army and US army has to go and attack these Arabs and kill them and kick them out of the tribal area. It is taking time because of many reasons. But rest assured we will cleanse our land from the Arab Islmaists like the Aiman Zawahiri.

3. 1973 Yom Kappur war
I don't know what they teach in Egypt schools. But the reality is that the whole 3rd army of Egypt was surrounded by Israel, and as a result the Egyptian gov was begging for mercy. Why do you get angry when someone mentions this simple fact?




Nothing personal. Just discussing the war history here.

Peace.

Pakistan is not like Israel at all. You guys are/were fighting and equally developed country as you. You guys are basically the same people, same education, same war experince and tarining. They are way more than you numbers wise thu, only disadvantage. On the other hand, Israel or the Jews participated in world war 2 and they gained a lot of experince since, especially for their air force. Plus, they were/are far more suprior than us technology wise, hence they all came from developed countries, and it wan't very hard for them to transfer the experince and knowledge they already had to their new country. we on the other hand we were just gaining our independence and forming our army. One information for you, out of all the wars that happened between the Arabs and Israel, Israel forces outnumbered or equally numbered the Arab forces combined together, plus they always had a far suprior technological weapons, especially their air force which is decisive in a desert war.



As for the 1973 Ramadan War, the plan was to attack the Suez canal, occupy 15KM deep inside Sinai, 164 KM accross the canal, and extend the war as long as we can, and cause as many casualties in the Isrraeli side that would force them to start negotiations on giving up the land they occupied in 1967 war, and that was all achived except that the Arabs refused to negotiate with israel, so Egypt went by itself to negotiate over Sinai.
As for the 3rd army, yes it was surrounded but it never surendered, and that was the whole purpose of surrounding it. Ofcourse it wasn't a good thing, but it doesn't mean it we lost the war, and they won, hence we achived all we wanted to achieve.

BTW, the 3rd Egyptian army was surrounded after the cease fire, and during the cease fire Egypt with the help of the just arrived Arab forces surrounded the israeli aramy that surrounded the Egyptian Army, but no fighting took place, from either side. I hope you have a better understanding of the Egyptian view of the war, and those are FACTS.

 

[AUz]

I think we can debate without having to resort to insults/personal attacks

O.K I apologize..I've edit my post...


This guy is getting annoyed due to his childish behavior.He is acting as if he know "all the history" and others are stupid goons sitting..I asked him to read what Gen.Ariel Sharon has written in his biography..even the Israeli commanders don't agree with this kid and he is saying me to read history

 

[agentny17]

^^^I agree with what you said above and i can only wish it was true, but the situation is a lot complex than that. Turkey is a NATO member, Saudi/GCC's can't get along with Iran and vice versa (age old Sunni Shia rivalry), Egypt is too far away and probably heavily monitered by USA/Israel, Iran is under sanctions etc. And not to mention that when Pakistan tried to help Libya develop nuclear bomb the Libyans sold us out by telling the UN/USA that Pakistan is helping North Korea, Iran and Libya and Pakistan got sanctioned. The only reliable ally for Pakistan was, is, and will remain China InshaAllah.

You really think that you will become a better nation by being China's ally ? I hope you become a better nation, but i doubt this is the way.... As for the problems we have, the most is the Saudi-Iran rivalry, but other than that everything else can be solved or currently being solved. Egypt will def. have closer ties with Turkey and Iran as soon as a new government is elected. Libyans didn't sell you out, Gadaffi did, he sold his people out too.... I know its hard, and it will take time, but it is the ONLY way we can become stronger and respected, and feared, as much united as we can. We have to work together, its not an option, otherwise we won't be better, that is how i see it, and that is what history tells me.

 

[Mosamania]

Pakistan is not like Israel at all. You guys are/were fighting and equally developed country as you. You guys are basically the same people, same education, same war experince and tarining. They are way more than you numbers wise thu, only disadvantage. On the other hand, Israel or the Jews participated in world war 2 and they gained a lot of experince since, especially for their air force. Plus, they were/are far more suprior than us technology wise, hence they all came from developed countries, and it wan't very hard for them to transfer the experince and knowledge they already had to their new country. we on the other hand we were just gaining our independence and forming our army. One information for you, out of all the wars that happened between the Arabs and Israel, Israel forces outnumbered or equally numbered the Arab forces combined together, plus they always had a far suprior technological weapons, especially their air force which is decisive in a desert war.



As for the 1973 Ramadan War, the plan was to attack the Suez canal, occupy 15KM deep inside Sinai, 164 KM accross the canal, and extend the war as long as we can, and cause as many casualties in the Isrraeli side that would force them to start negotiations on giving up the land they occupied in 1967 war, and that was all achived except that the Arabs refused to negotiate with israel, so Egypt went by itself to negotiate over Sinai.
As for the 3rd army, yes it was surrounded but it never surendered, and that was the whole purpose of surrounding it. Ofcourse it wasn't a good thing, but it doesn't mean it we lost the war, and they won, hence we achived all we wanted to achieve.

BTW, the 3rd Egyptian army was surrounded after the cease fire, and during the cease fire Egypt with the help of the just arrived Arab forces surrounded the israeli aramy that surrounded the Egyptian Army, but no fighting took place, from either side. I hope you have a better understanding of the Egyptian view of the war, and those are FACTS.

Sadfuly a lot of people only get their history information from western Israeli sources and not look at the Egyptian side of the story which we as Arabs are part to blame for it because we could not write the history in English and publish it etc. when they could.

 

[agentny17]

Sadfuly a lot of people only get their history information from western Israeli sources and not look at the Egyptian side of the story which we as Arabs are part to blame for it because we could not write the history in English and publish it etc. when they could.

I agree, which is why i don't think we will be better countries unless we improve our education systems, advocate freedom, and human rights. Its not acceptable in 2011 that an avegae Egyptian doesn't actually know what happened in the 1973 war, and it is not acceptable that people who talk about our mistakes in the 1973 war are called traitors. We did very good things in the war, and also deadly mistakes, and we will never learn from them unless we actually have the freedom of speech that allows us to talk about them. Education, Freedom, and Human Rights are the answer my friends, all of them.

 

[Desert Fox]

Pakistan is not like Israel at all.


You guys are/were fighting and equally developed country as you. You guys are basically the same people, same education, same war experince and tarining. They are way more than you numbers wise thu, only disadvantage. On the other hand, Israel or the Jews participated in world war 2 and they gained a lot of experince since, especially for their air force. Plus, they were/are far more suprior than us technology wise, hence they all came from developed countries, and it wan't very hard for them to transfer the experince and knowledge they already had to their new country. we on the other hand we were just gaining our independence and forming our army. One information for you, out of all the wars that happened between the Arabs and Israel, Israel forces outnumbered or equally numbered the Arab forces combined together, plus they always had a far suprior technological weapons, especially their air force which is decisive in a desert war.

I don't know much about Arab-Israeli wars except that PAF pilots participated in those war. However bro i would like to correct some of your misconceptions about Pakistan, its armed forces, and its people. Pakistan army before independence was a part of the British indian army that actively participated in WW2 against the Japanese Imperial Army and the NAZI's in Europe, even in North Africa and Italy, in fact there are still villages in Pakistan that have the medals given awarded to them for the participation of the men of those villages. Secondly brother, indians and Pakistanis are not the same people, though some of us can trace our ancestry back to india but they are only around 8 million people in Pakistan who can trace their ancestry back to india, i am a Pashtun/Pakhtun, we are located between Afghanistan and Pakistan though you can find Pashtuns/Pakhtun tribes in Punjab as well. Thirdly PAF has a history of gaining a high number of kills against a both technologically and numerically superior enemies in every war/conflict it participated in, look up the participation of PAF in Arab Israeli wars and how PAF pilots scored kills against israeli F-4's, Mirage 3's while flying technologically inferior Mig-21 and Hunter aircrafts, pilots like Saiful Azam. Also look up PAF F-16's versus Afghan and Soviet pilots during Afghan Soviet war, look up PAF participation during the War against LTTE rebels in Sri Lanka, look up PAF perticipation in the 1962 conflict of Saudi Arabia and Communist south Yemen. Pakistan Armed forces are very professional and experienced and have gained a international reputation for bravery, intelligence, valor, courage, and discipline.

Here is the picture of PAF pilot Saiful Azam's Iraqi Hawker Hunter in which he shot down 3 israeli aircraft, though this aircraft only shows 2 israel marking, it is confirmed that he shot down 3 israeli aircraft:

 

[Mosamania]

I don't know much about Arab-Israeli wars except that PAF pilots participated in those war. However bro i would like to correct some of your misconceptions about Pakistan, its armed forces, and its people. Pakistan army before independence was a part of the British indian army that actively participated in WW2 against the Japanese Imperial Army and the NAZI's in Europe, even in North Africa and Italy, in fact there are still villages in Pakistan that have the medals given awarded to them for the participation of the men of those villages. Secondly brother, indians and Pakistanis are not the same people, though some of us can trace our ancestry back to india but they are only around 8 million people in Pakistan who can trace their ancestry back to india, i am a Pashtun/Pakhtun, we are located between Afghanistan and Pakistan though you can find Pashtuns/Pakhtun tribes in Punjab as well. Thirdly PAF has a history of gaing a high number of kills against a both technilogically and numerically superior enemy in every war/conflict is participated in, look up the participation of PAF in Arab Israeli wars and how PAF pilots scored kills against israeli F-4's, Mirage 3's while flying technologically inferior Mig-21 and Hunter aircrafts. Also look up PAF F-16's versus Afghan and Soviet pilots during Afghan Soviet war, look up PAF participation during the War against LTTE rebels in Sri Lanka, look up PAF perticipation in the 1962 conflict of Saudi Arabia and Communist south Yemen. Pakistan Armed forces are very professional and experienced and have gained a international reputation for bravery, intelligence, valor, courage, and discipline.

Yes I admire the PAF which is why I am really glad it is the Air Force that mainly trains our pilots.

 

[agentny17]

I don't know much about Arab-Israeli wars except that PAF pilots participated in those war. However bro i would like to correct some of your misconceptions about Pakistan, its armed forces, and its people. Pakistan army before independence was a part of the British indian army that actively participated in WW2 against the Japanese Imperial Army and the NAZI's in Europe, even in North Africa and Italy, in fact there are still villages in Pakistan that have the medals given awarded to them for the participation of the men of those villages. Secondly brother, indians and Pakistanis are not the same people, though some of us can trace our ancestry back to india but they are only around 8 million people in Pakistan who can trace their ancestry back to india, i am a Pashtun/Pakhtun, we are located between Afghanistan and Pakistan though you can find Pashtuns/Pakhtun tribes in Punjab as well. Thirdly PAF has a history of gaining a high number of kills against a both technologically and numerically superior enemies in every war/conflict it participated in, look up the participation of PAF in Arab Israeli wars and how PAF pilots scored kills against israeli F-4's, Mirage 3's while flying technologically inferior Mig-21 and Hunter aircrafts, pilots like Saiful Azam. Also look up PAF F-16's versus Afghan and Soviet pilots during Afghan Soviet war, look up PAF participation during the War against LTTE rebels in Sri Lanka, look up PAF perticipation in the 1962 conflict of Saudi Arabia and Communist south Yemen. Pakistan Armed forces are very professional and experienced and have gained a international reputation for bravery, intelligence, valor, courage, and discipline.

Here is the picute of PAF pilot Saiful Azam who shot down 3 israeli aircraft, though this aircraft only shows 2 israel marking, it is confirmed that he shot down 3 israeli aircraft:

I have the ultimate resect for Pakistanis and their army, my father who is a retired pilot for the Egyptian Air force was trained by a Pakistani instructor, and he only says great things about him. I also didn't know that you guys are not the same people, but i do know that you guys were in one country, one army, had the same education while you were under the britsh occupation, on the other had Israelis or the jews were part of the occupation that was in the arab worlds, you basucally brought the most succesful people from all Europe, Soviet Union, and the US and put them in one country and called it Israel, and gave them the most help, every kind of help from every developed country on earth...... We are very proud of you guys and your army, and we know that you guys did a lot of great things.

 

[500]

This tank is not Israeli. It has old 20 pounder gun.

Iand how PAF pilots scored kills against israeli F-4's, Mirage 3's while flying technologically inferior Mig-21 and Hunter aircrafts, pilots like Saiful Azam.

Pakistanis did not shot any Israeli Mirage or F-4.

Hey you kid,what is your age? Why didn't you reply to my complete post,dumbo. I mentioned SR-71 because of a reason. *click click* Reconnaissance for opening a new front or finding gaps b/w enemy's lines *click click* Get it? Alas,your too young to comprehend anything.You genius,I asked you to read the biography of the man itself..General Aeriel Sharon ! Do you know MORE than him? Heck! he was the commander of Israeli Army which encircled the 3rd Army

Bolded quote shows the level of your knowledge Sharon commanded division which guarded the crossing area. Encyrcling was done by Aden and Magen divisions. The gap was discovered by 87th recon batallion of Sharon's division though.