C for CPEC, Callousness and Controversy

[mr.robot]

Hey man, what a catch. Ever wrote on an IPAD touch screen, watching 4 monitors and being in a conference call with having thick fingers? Yea, typos do happen. Sorry, we are all humans. But, on the other side, you never responded to anything factually, I can cry and write personal stuff too. But what good is it for? Just shows one's tiny little mental capacity like your post represents yours!!



Oh poor cup cake!!!!! You are so hurt!!!!! Well, don't cry. Eat a pie. If you don't like the content or the person.....don't indulge in a conversation with me.

By the way, in the last message, you were going to show me credentials. Here, you are calling Mods for help to save your hurt emotions....where are the manly, man, proud credentials I was waiting on??

Did your monitors went blank or servers of Dow Jones went down while accessing information regarding trade volume of Pakistan's ETFs or your iPad's iOS crashed while typing that big number?

 

[Khan_patriot]

Pashtuns or any Pak ethnic group doesn't need to prove or have a certified to show their patriotism ..! Fuk that.. That disgusts me.

As for this guy .. I have a feeling that this guy is either Indian or a pseudo intellectual type.. Like that turd "tareek fateeh" clown.

I just tagged you guys to embarrass him.

Always available to take care of trolls who claim to advocate Pukhtoon rights and dissent when they have no idea about who and what we are

 

[Spectre]

So you are telling me the Western investors paying thousands for each Security I listed for Pakistan are pure stupid and have freaking clue?? . And YOU, somehow, having NO experience in this arena, are smarter than people who've been running economies and securities across the globe for like 80 years !!

So per the bullet points above in your post, these people, who invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Pakistani securities, decided to pay three to five times the money to LOSE money....and while they can otherwise pay to buy Google, Apple, GE and other securities much cheaper, and all inside US and more secure apparently????

Your logic is as small as a Child age 4 who gets a first Space Ship toy and thinks the Moon is as high as his hand can go in the air!! If you couldn't understand numbers I provided from the Dow and other places, the actual physical fact, there is nothing I can provide to you which would help you. Go on writing silly posts. I think I am done. You can make sense out of logic, but you can't make sense out of rants and opinions without facts!!

I say this with all due respect and cognizant of the fact that I am committing ad-hominem that you are a fool and moreover deliberately not understanding what I am saying just so that you can have the last word.

I will state this for the last time -

1. Most investors are looking to make profit and not loss. They are investing in Pakistan Stock Market because it has a low base and they realize that they can pump it up and then bail out leaving local investors high and dry as their is not enough liquidity in these markets. Most of the investments are in secondary market not primary like in IPOs. Morover stock market of Pakistan like markets are never correlated to it's economy. Correlation happens only in case of Advanced and Mature Stock Markets with ample liquidity like NYSE and NASDAQ

2. Google and Apple are not worth less just because their share price might be low. Share price cannot be just compared b/w two securities. You have to take various factors into account like liquidity, stock splits, dividends etc. You are an ignoramus if you think one can just compare two securities based on share price.

You just told me how high your brain power can work in this area!!!! Portfolio Manager!!!!! I have a few who work for me

I highly doubt it unless you are Bill Gates. A typical portfolio manager in the above companies handles more than 10 Billion of investment money/assets.

If you have such people working under you than what the heck are you doing on this forum?

P.S. I have still not claimed any credentials if you have intelligence enough to comprehend what I posted.

 

[VCheng]

Even discounting historing trends of returns and volumes - Even assuming they are providing stellar returns and are blue chip securities - it still doesn't help but see the complete ignorance on display when the person claiming to be know all in such matters states that these investments would fuel Pakistan's growth.

In most stable of Markets like US and UK there is at best a tangential correlation b/w stock markets and economy in developing markets like India and China that correlation is even more tenuous and in Pakistan where the Stock Market is just in it's infancy it is laughable to presume that the Stock Markets would fuel growth even if the "Bulls are reigning Supreme"

Forget the financial technicalities, some people need to look at an atlas to remind themselves of basic geography. Seriously. Getting to Europe and CAS via Gawadar is a huge detour for China. Getting oil from the ME to the consumption centers on the Chinese coast is best done via tankers. And so on, but let us just let this go.

 

[Mrc]

Also people need to consider trade flow in opposite direction..oil from persian and arabian oil fields to china...which in turn will also attract presence of chinese navy to protect this vital route.... which in turn may also bring around down fall of un disputed american hagemony in middle east...which in turn can only be good.....
Which in turn leads to huge fire in a prticular part of body that some powers are feeling from this project.....

Moving back to PTI and domestic politics.... greatest appeal of IK is that he is not corrupt
...thats why people have forgiven his great foolishness like dharna ....
He shud continue to concentrate on his strong points.....i dont see completion of this project bringing his popularity down caz peole dont like him due to his ability to make (or break) big projects.... but his honesty.... that is the only thing going for him....only if he had a brain....alas

 

[Orakzai]

1) Wrong map. Remember, you are ONLY looking at Phase I. People are causing tremendous drama without knowing the entire roadmap over the next 10-15 years!!

2) The ONLY two most beneficial states are the KPK and Baluchistan, like i said in my explanation above. Both are the epicenter of the CPEC due to their closer proximity to the Chinese border, with Central Russian states, and with Gawader (and later with Iran). So the real wealth will be going to the KPK and Baluchistan. These foolish politicians from the KPK are making a deal out of thin air, just to score political points and deprive the nation from the ONLY real opportunity she has to turn Pakistan into an Australia in a decade or so (literally).

3) The energy projects you mentioned, are just for phase I. The map is wrong on those too. Find an original map if you have access to it. The Chinese have some security concerns, and the Pakistani Army has started working on securing a larger area. Until all those things happen, the Chinese will work on "secure zones" as they deem necessary. Its their money and they control the delivery and work zones. Just the way investments work.

4) Metro Lahore has no direct relationship with the CPEC. In other words, it may also have a huge investment from the Chinese, but its not due to the CPEC trade route. However, it is indirectly linked to the CPEC in terms of CPEC being used as a larger PROGRAM to grow Pakistan's economy.

The Chinese, as phase II of the CPEC when starts in 2019 - 2020, will be putting big manufacturing plants around the country's most populous areas. Haer has been looking into Lahore for her first plant.

So the infrastructure development at the province level is to create modern cities which will connect the city's population cheaply to outside industrial zones, as well as reducing traffic congestion, connecting more people for work, etc. All of which will shape up future's Lahore, Islamabad, etc when they get into real growth mode by 2018!!

My friend since you seem to be more informed about CPEC then me how about you tell me how many projects or what kind of projects (not roads) KPK is getting through this who CPEC deal? and show me some official maps of the project as you have clearly rejected the one i posted. i for surely see only one I SAY IT AGAIN ONLY ONE PROJECT for KPK in the whole CPEC.

why don't the federal government come out clean on CPEC and release all maps and documents signed with Chinese? this will shut KPK's politicians as they are blamed to be just doing politics on it. i mean i see no clear answer from government on reservations of KPK and about the whole CPEC. i watched so many government ministers on tv and none of them could even clearly explain what CPEC actually is.

The because its Pakistan's second largest city? Same as why everything has to pass through Karachi.

WRONG not because its second largest city of Pakistan but rather a vote bank for PMLN.

 

[Viper0011.]

Just look at the historical trends, returns and volume of trade for all those funds quoted and the truth is before all to see.

50k trucks a day is a truck every two seconds. A million trucks is 11 trucks per second. 36 billion dollars of annual investment is 3 billion per month. That is a lot. (Of BS.)

What about the history of "those funds"? And why does it matter? Hyundai and Kia when introduced in the US, were considered the shiitiest cars. But today, they are starting to compete with other regular brands like GM, Nissan, etc because the Koreans IMPROVED.

So should I take those cars value from ten years ago and bit*ch about it??? Or do I take their current value that's in the market? I'll take their price today as that's what I am paying. Same thing with these funds. When the market was shiity and the new government was starting, of course they were low. But see where those are today, WAY the hell above Google and Apples and Lockheed Martin, JP Morgan, etc!!

I have interacted with you once before and I am sure you remember...which is why you don't address me directly. You along with a few others are generally negative and pessimistic people. Pakistan has 200 million people.....can you tell me how many trucks does it have? It will be WELL over 50,000 trucks!!

The Western Chinese part Pakistan will provide freight services for, has 350 MILLION people (so 1.5 times more population than Pakistan), plus add other countries later too. The trucks routing will go way over a million in the long run. I can assure you of that, if you don't want to use the population numbers and use common sense that you don't want to bother using!!


Ever done strategic work on economy and commodities? If yes, then you should know two ways to estimate these scenarios. For example, the following are two methods used to estimate the number of trucks a certain route may get.

1) Commodity Group Density Model

2) Commodity Weight Density Data

Please don't post anything after reading the following on google. Its very apparent on how much expertise folks have in this arena on here. And YET, everyone wants to sound like the Chief Economist of Pakistan, while their real experience with commodities, markets and economic strategy may be as limited as investing a few thousand in the stock market.

Here is an excerpt from the American Trucking Association that serves the 330 Million American population in terms of their freight needs (remember, Western China and Pakistan and other countries will have over 600 MILLION consumers to use CPEC for combined).

Please note, on the following, they are ONLY talking about heavy duty trucks. Not 12-14 wheel trucks, which will be used a LOT in Pakistan and China's case!!

"The trucking industry is the lifeblood of the U.S. economy. Nearly 70% of all the freight tonnage moved in the U.S. goes on trucks. Without the industry and our truck drivers, the economy would come to a standstill. To move 9.2 billion tons of freight annually requires nearly 3 million heavy-duty Class 8 trucks and over 3 million truck drivers. It also takes over 37 billion gallons of diesel fuel to move all of that freight. Simply – without trucks, America stops"

American Trucking Associations

My friend since you seem to be more informed about CPEC then me how about you tell me how many projects or what kind of projects (not roads) KPK is getting through this who CPEC deal? and show me some official maps of the project as you have clearly rejected the one i posted. i for surely see only one I SAY IT AGAIN ONLY ONE PROJECT for KPK in the whole CPEC.

Not because its second largest city of Pakistan but rather a vote bank for PMLN.

1) I don't think you are paying attention or caring to effing listen!!!! When you build a house, you just have a map of how the "structure" will look like. Then the colors and the furniture is added at the end. So right now, the infrastructure is limited to highway network and power generation. THEN there will be economic zone development and other projects that will be listed out.

2) Just to satisfy your ego, here is the list of "INITIAL" economic zones. NOTE: see my point 1 again. This was an INITIAL list, as the foundation is laid down, this list will be updated a LOT and its an ongoing process. So don't take these preliminary details thinking this is THE CPEC project!! And the image below, also provides you with some basic details of phase 1 (again, infrastructure roads and power generation) and once the feasibilities are done, the work on Phase II will be announced with updated maps and projects list.

3) YOU KEEP IGNORING THE FACT: that this is NOT under the Pakistani government. You keep bringing NS and his people in and it sounds childish and silly. They don't develop maps and lists of projects. The Chinese do. Why don't you write an email to the Chinese and let us know when you get an answer back. Really? This is getting flat out stupid to be honest. Its like dealing with a bunch of 12 year old kids who don't read, pay attention but keep crying about the same shiit again and again!!

Here's the map for you. Again, version 1. The one being circulated with nothing in KPK, was created by one of you in IK's labs of bullshiit. Thank him for fukking with your country's future progress. But it WILL happen. You can take my words for it

 

[Orakzai]

What about the history of "those funds"? And why does it matter? Hyundai and Kia when introduced in the US, were considered the shiitiest cars. But today, they are starting to compete with other regular brands like GM, Nissan, etc because the Koreans IMPROVED.

So should I take those cars value from ten years ago and bit*ch about it??? Or do I take their current value that's in the market? I'll take their price today as that's what I am paying. Same thing with these funds. When the market was shiity and the new government was starting, of course they were low. But see where those are today, WAY the hell above Google and Apples and Lockheed Martin, JP Morgan, etc!!

I have interacted with you once before and I am sure you remember...which is why you don't address me directly. You along with a few others are generally negative and pessimistic people. Pakistan has 200 million people.....can you tell me how many trucks does it have? It will be WELL over 50,000 trucks!!

The Western Chinese part Pakistan will provide freight services for, has 350 MILLION people (so 1.5 times more population than Pakistan), plus add other countries later too. The trucks routing will go way over a million in the long run. I can assure you of that, if you don't want to use the population numbers and use common sense that you don't want to bother using!!


Ever done strategic work on economy and commodities? If yes, then you should know two ways to estimate these scenarios. For example, the following are two methods used to estimate the number of trucks a certain route may get.

1) Commodity Group Density Model

2) Commodity Weight Density Data

Please don't post anything after reading the following on google. Its very apparent on how much expertise folks have in this arena on here. And YET, everyone wants to sound like the Chief Economist of Pakistan, while their real experience with commodities, markets and economic strategy may be as limited as investing a few thousand in the stock market.

Here is an excerpt from the American Trucking Association that serves the 330 Million American population in terms of their freight needs (remember, Western China and Pakistan and other countries will have over 600 MILLION consumers to use CPEC for combined).

Please note, on the following, they are ONLY talking about heavy duty trucks. Not 12-14 wheel trucks, which will be used a LOT in Pakistan and China's case!!

"The trucking industry is the lifeblood of the U.S. economy. Nearly 70% of all the freight tonnage moved in the U.S. goes on trucks. Without the industry and our truck drivers, the economy would come to a standstill. To move 9.2 billion tons of freight annually requires nearly 3 million heavy-duty Class 8 trucks and over 3 million truck drivers. It also takes over 37 billion gallons of diesel fuel to move all of that freight. Simply – without trucks, America stops"

American Trucking Associations



1) I don't think you are paying attention or caring to effing listen!!!! When you build a house, you just have a map of how the "structure" will look like. Then the colors and the furniture is added at the end. So right now, the infrastructure is limited to highway network and power generation. THEN there will be economic zone development and other projects that will be listed out.

2) Just to satisfy your ego, here is the list of "INITIAL" economic zones. NOTE: see my point 1 again. This was an INITIAL list, as the foundation is laid down, this list will be updated a LOT and its an ongoing process. So don't take these preliminary details thinking this is THE CPEC project!! And the image below, also provides you with some basic details of phase 1 (again, infrastructure roads and power generation) and once the feasibilities are done, the work on Phase II will be announced with updated maps and projects list.

3) YOU KEEP IGNORING THE FACT: that this is NOT under the Pakistani government. You keep bringing NS and his people in and it sounds childish and silly. They don't develop maps and lists of projects. The Chinese do. Why don't you write an email to the Chinese and let us know when you get an answer back. Really? This is getting flat out stupid to be honest. Its like dealing with a bunch of 12 year old kids who don't read, pay attention but keep crying about the same shiit again and again!!

Here's the map for you. Again, version 1. The one being circulated with nothing in KPK, was created by one of you in IK's labs of bullshiit. Thank him for fukking with your country's future progress. But it WILL happen. You can take my words for it

View attachment 287172

you know for once i was expecting that i might be talking to some sane PMLN supporter and i genuinely thought that you might come up with some satisfying and logical facts but you proved me wrong your reply is full of utterly bullcrap and jingoism of typical PMLN supporter and thanks to the language you used proved me wrong about expecting any valuable output from you. i just can't get my head around the fact that how easily you threw away the INFO GRAPH i posted here and labeled it as the creation of IK's lab, which infect was presented by one like you(blind PMLN supporter) on some other forum. Did you even pay attention to it for a second that there might be something which will shame you later? i mean i'll post both (yours and mine info graphs) can you pinpoint me what is the difference between them both EXCEPT mine is much more in details with all the locations of the ENERGY projects.

After you are done with comparing complaining about IK, come down of your high horses let me tell you one more thing that now its not only KPK's government who are screaming their lungs out to be taken on board and promises made be fulfilled now Sindh as well as some parties of Baluchistan has risen up (wouldn't be surprised if you call them all traitors). i said it before and i'll say it again our incompetent officials of the government can't even explain what the project is all about. watch 10 federal ministers today on TV and everyone would have their own version of CPEC explanation and everyone of them is different from the other one.

 

[Viper0011.]

i just can't get my head around the fact that how easily you threw away the INFO GRAPH i posted here and labeled it as the creation of IK's lab, which infect was presented by one like you(blind PMLN supporter) on some other forum.

Did you even pay attention to it for a second that there might be something which will shame you later? i mean i'll post both (yours and mine info graphs) can you pinpoint me what is the difference between them both EXCEPT mine is much more in details with all the locations of the ENERGY projects.

So you are running this entire propaganda campaign because a PMLN lover posted a map somewhere on a forum, and you considered it the word of God????? Sums it ALL up . It sounds like "someone told IK there was rigging", but it can't be proven in the SC

I and a couple of others told you before, the map you posted, isn't real. The "Detail" you mentioned above, isn't real.

Like I said, let's resolve this. So, write to the Chinese embassy in Islamabad to get a REAL map as nothing I provide will satisfy the liars and the propagandist. Unlike paid propagandists, I am on no one's payroll. I write the truth without caring who's rear hearts reading it. I measure my life and others, through performance!! Vs. some on here including you, who judge others through how much bullshiit comes out of their mouth.

So write to the Chinese embassy and post the map when you get from them. Make sure it has a SEAL on it so no one can Photoshop it. How about that? You own it and we'll trust you to obtain the real document and present it.

In-fact, IK went to the Chinese embassy (without invitation, like he went to India to meet Modi, creating false importance of himself ). So post the true map with seals on it. And we'll just follow you.

I'll debate with you when you post the real map with TRUE details on it ( I am almost sure, like IK and his people's past, this here, won't bear any results either and its ALL talk, like hot gas coming out of the bottom of a balloon )!!

 

[Alpha BeeTee]

PTI is playing cock block here on the CPEC issue. KP is getting a share of every major project. The so called nationalists want to deprive the biggest province, the biggest domestic economy and the biggest industrial hub from the biggest project in nation's history. This is stupid at best. Also the eastern alignment serves us as a military deterrent. By placing a major Chinese, Pakistani asset within 100km of Indian border you are creating a strategic line in the sand.

In an event of a conflict the Indians would think a 100 times before attacking the Lines of Communication which serve billions of dollars worth of trade interests to not only Pakistan but China and other CPEC partner states. The only mission of PTI here is to look as if they are "doing opposition". They have no solid argument to hide the fact that they are merely trying to deny PMLN the 'credit' that comes with completing CPEC which they fear might translate into vote bank in 2018 elections. It also allows Imran Khan and PK to tap into the vote bank of far left ultra nationalists associated to ANP. This of course is being done without any regard for the project that might change Pakistan as a state for the better.

As Iqbal said : "The Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they however wither and die at the hands of the politicians".

@Icarus @Irfan Baloch @Hyperion @Oscar

Horus bhai..
Do you really see any real threat to CPEC ?
These rants were always expected from the politicians..
I think the stakes are too high for even China to back off from this whole thing just because of our politicians.
I dont fear the haulting of this project entirely but I fear glitches and slowing down of things.

 

[notorious_eagle]

PTI is in a defeatist mode. As per IK's logic Supporting CPEC = Supporting PMLN. That is disastrous.

Indeed, as a national leader, he still has some way to go before he can start identifying issues for what they are actually worth. There is some consolation in knowing that this is Chinese money though and they never make a bad investment, the Chinese will complete this project even if they have to build a road that is suspended over the whole country.

Gentlemen, I must respectfully disagree. I believe you both are misinformed, and i myself was under the same impression till i heard both of their interviews. They both have clearly said they support the Project whole heartedly, the only thing they have asked for is TRANSPARENCY.

I believe their demands are just and they are well within their rights to make these demands. They have been urging the Fed Govt for the past 1 year to reveal the agreements and the plans for the Project. Not only has the Fed Govt failed to share any information with the CM's of the smaller provinces, they have largely bull dozed the project without the consent of any of the stakeholders from the smaller Provinces. IK and Khattak have asked time and again, that either a CCI meeting be called which the Fed Govt is deliberately not calling or a resolution is tabled in Parliament. My question is, why is the Fed Govt so scared of sharing any information with the other stakeholders. IK has even offered that if the Fed Govt does not want to share the information in the Parliament, they are more than welcome to share it with the Parliamentary Leaders of all the political parties.

Just to add a cherry on top, all the other political parties have backed IK and his stance for demanding transparency in this project, and i for one as a citizen of Pakistan also demand that. The last thing we want is this money is squandered away in corruption.

 

[Viper0011.]

Where the heck do you get all this info from !! ?

Regardless of the destiny of CPEC,you are an important contribution to this forum because you keep on providing an alternate opinion. I appreciate that Sir !

I have my own resources . And thank you for the compliment. I hope I can put this in the heads of these negative people that politics and personal favorites are NOT above your country and your nation. Support the work the government is doing as there is a LOT of opportunity for all Pakistanis coming up. Opportunity that was a right of every single Pakistani, but they were denied it for decades, through various means and power plays!!!!

This is your time, Carpe Diem !!!!

 

[TaimiKhan]

Sirs:

Permit me to ask both of you a question. Regardless of which CPEC route is implemented first with a Western or Eastern alignment, just exactly how will this claimed billions of dollars in trade materialize? What will be made, exported, imported, or transported exactly? The skies will not start raining yuans or dollars simply because a few good roads and rails have been built, all by themselves.

Dear Sir,

The dollars or yuans will start raining after a very long time provided we have good infrastructure to support it. Personally i believe this is a very long haul project. First the route has to be made operational, then we need to have electricity which for the time being we don't have for ourselves and it should be cheap & with that other supporting infrastructure should be there.

After that may be to cut further cost, industries start getting set up in Pakistan as till then local industry may get small portion of the trade.

Its a long term and very ambitious project and i believe only Chinese are capable to finish it.

 

[Echo_419]

PTI is playing cock block here on the CPEC issue. KP is getting a share of every major project. The so called nationalists want to deprive the biggest province, the biggest domestic economy and the biggest industrial hub from the biggest project in nation's history. This is stupid at best. Also the eastern alignment serves us as a military deterrent. By placing a major Chinese, Pakistani asset within 100km of Indian border you are creating a strategic line in the sand.

In an event of a conflict the Indians would think a 100 times before attacking the Lines of Communication which serve billions of dollars worth of trade interests to not only Pakistan but China and other CPEC partner states. The only mission of PTI here is to look as if they are "doing opposition". They have no solid argument to hide the fact that they are merely trying to deny PMLN the 'credit' that comes with completing CPEC which they fear might translate into vote bank in 2018 elections. It also allows Imran Khan and PK to tap into the vote bank of far left ultra nationalists associated to ANP. This of course is being done without any regard for the project that might change Pakistan as a state for the better.

As Iqbal said : "The Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they however wither and die at the hands of the politicians".

@Icarus @Irfan Baloch @Hyperion @Oscar

I think the era of Major wars between India & Pakistan is over,only proxy wars will happen now

 

[tarrar]

What MQM said against CPEC, any source or just your hallucination?

Bhata khory ka business.