BVR combat

[sigatoka]

For all the talk about planes with BVR, there isnt much data on how many kills have been scored BVR in modern airwars versus in visual range. Secondly, jamming and ECM capabilities have improved and if combat were to take place between reasonably equal opponents (such as U.S. vs China or India vs Pak rather than U.S. vs Iraq) wouldnt one expect most kills in the air to be scored in visual range rather than BVR?

 

[Thunder]

Even with the BVR kings such as the raptor and the eurofighter, one should always except to be engaged in a dogfight. No BVR missile is 100% accurate, when ever they do make accurate missiles, others make something to counter it. One excample would be the heat seeking missiles and flares.

 

[Chukkar]

Your understanding of BVR is simplistic if you are assuming its only for kills. No. BVR is about dissuassion as well. If you are an escort group, escorting three strikers into a mission, and you are locked upon, & cannot break the same, then the mission could be scrubbed. Thats a mission kill, right there. In the Indo Pak matchup, with thousands of AA-10s, SARH, available to the IAF, this could be a valid scenario, since the PAF cannot to risk its assets beyond a point (force conservation).

 

[blain2]

Your understanding of BVR is simplistic if you are assuming its only for kills. No. BVR is about dissuassion as well. If you are an escort group, escorting three strikers into a mission, and you are locked upon, & cannot break the same, then the mission could be scrubbed. Thats a mission kill, right there. In the Indo Pak matchup, with thousands of AA-10s, SARH, available to the IAF, this could be a valid scenario, since the PAF cannot to risk its assets beyond a point (force conservation).

I agree. Right now the PAF cannot risk a lot of their assets, however with the induction of SD-10 and AIM-120, the risk to both sides becomes even. This is all the more important for PAF as it will increase the deterrance level on the PAF side by several notches (given the fact that PAF is a defensive force and most its assets are geared for that role).

 

[vijay dahiya]

I agree. Right now the PAF cannot risk a lot of their assets, however with the induction of SD-10 and AIM-120, the risk to both sides becomes even. This is all the more important for PAF as it will increase the deterrance level on the PAF side by several notches (given the fact that PAF is a defensive force and most its assets are geared for that role).

hello friends . don,t mind but u alwaystalk about future regarding paf. now u r saying that sd-10 and aim-120. but u forgot to mention india future bvr missiles ks-172"monster", astra, python -5( which iaf will sure get it in the near future).

 

[blain2]

hello friends . don,t mind but u alwaystalk about future regarding paf. now u r saying that sd-10 and aim-120. but u forgot to mention india future bvr missiles ks-172"monster", astra, python -5( which iaf will sure get it in the near future).

This is not really a future PAF. The order for AIM-120C5 is there for all to see. SD-10 will be undergoing tests in Pakistan at the begining of 2007.

For Astra, the less said the better as the type was to be inducted in 1999. Python 5 is not a BVRAAM. KS-172 etc. does not really change the basic equation which is either you have the BVR capability or you do not. I frankly admitted that currently PAF does not have a robust BVRAAM capability but in the recent future, this will not be the case.

Lets just hope that there is no conflict in the near future....BVRs on the Pakistani side only help the situation. Knowing that an equal or greater capability exists in the hands of your adversary deters each side even more from starting a conflict.

 

[vijay dahiya]

This is not really a future PAF. The order for AIM-120C5 is there for all to see. SD-10 will be undergoing tests in Pakistan at the begining of 2007.

For Astra, the less said the better as the type was to be inducted in 1999. Python 5 is not a BVRAAM. KS-172 etc. does not really change the basic equation which is either you have the BVR capability or you do not. I frankly admitted that currently PAF does not have a robust BVRAAM capability but in the recent future, this will not be the case.

Lets just hope that there is no conflict in the near future....BVRs on the Pakistani side only help the situation. Knowing that an equal or greater capability exists in the hands of your adversary deters each side even more from starting a conflict.

thanks for reply blain 2, can u provide me an link that aim-120 which u say paf will get? ok why ks-172 will not change the situation as it is named as awacs killer means that it have very large range.
chau
Quote fixed

 

[blain2]

Here is the link:
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-34.pdf

KS-172 would be a threat but so is AA-12...the idea is that IAF already has a BVR capability that can threaten both Pakistani fighters and potentially the AEWACS and as such PAF has to be ready to face them, however typically the ECCM and jamming capabilities on AEWACS platform are many times more capable than what is available on a combat aircraft...so KS-172 is not the end of it all....BTW, Pakistan also evaluated FT-2000 in the role of AWACS-killer and is aware of the potential threat from such AAMs.

 

[Muradk]

Even with the BVR kings such as the raptor and the eurofighter, one should always except to be engaged in a dogfight. No BVR missile is 100% accurate, when ever they do make accurate missiles, others make something to counter it. One excample would be the heat seeking missiles and flares.

My friend your data on BVR is not correct, where does it say that BVR is not 100% accurate if that is the case than what is the use of BVR just to scare people of I have seen MiG 21 taken out by F-15 from 120 miles , BVR has 3 MoCs , throught NAV SAT, AWACS and GC. US planes fired 87 BVR missles and got 100% results up till today total of 256 BVR have been tested and fired on enemy non missed there targets. like one of my friends said earlier that there are ways to counter BVR and companies like Raytheon who actually made the first BVR missle have come up with jamming devices to couter it and they are 10 times more expensive than the missle it self

 

[sigatoka]

Raytheon who actually made the first BVR missle have come up with jamming devices to couter it and they are 10 times more expensive than the missle it self

Even if the jamming device is ten times more expensive, it could still be effective because the device isnt used up once u use it once. It could be used on multiple missions.

 

[MOO]

500 AIM-120C5 Missiles is an overkill in amount. But, I wonder if it would had been a smarter move to buy less munition and instead buy some more planes for the Air Force? Around 25-36 planes is not really alot for a nation the size of Pakistan. Even a midget-size country like Singapore has nearly 100 F16's in service. :whatever:

I instead would prefer buying more F16 Blk 50/52 in greater numbers than more missiles. And besides, wouldn't it be cheaper to integrate SD-10 onto the F16's anyway's? A much cheaper missile than the Araams.

 

[MOO]

And can somebody go tell Musharaff that he'd forgotten to order a good number of these too? I like the whole JDAM buy in large quatities, but still, with a good number of these you can strike surface targets from 100's of km away.

JSOW all the way!

AGM-154 JSOW: joint stand-off munition.

 

[blain2]

Even if the jamming device is ten times more expensive, it could still be effective because the device isnt used up once u use it once. It could be used on multiple missions.

You need both...not one or the other in order to be able to carry out your mission effectively.

 

[melb4aust]

And can somebody go tell Musharaff that he'd forgotten to order a good number of these too? I like the whole JDAM buy in large quatities, but still, with a good number of these you can strike surface targets from 100's of km away.

JSOW all the way!

AGM-154 JSOW: joint stand-off munition.

Thats too sophisticated tech for Pakistan, forget it for next couple of years. Buying 500 odd AMRAAMS is not a long term solution. Pakistan in collaboration with china should put more effort to impove their own home build missiles including SD-10. Technology is changing day by day, these medium range missiles will become old tech well before next decade. Try building something our own, who we should be proud on.

 

[blain2]

And can somebody go tell Musharaff that he'd forgotten to order a good number of these too? I like the whole JDAM buy in large quatities, but still, with a good number of these you can strike surface targets from 100's of km away.

JSOW all the way!

AGM-154 JSOW: joint stand-off munition.
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4193/usagm154jointstandoffweaponinertpayloadfh5.jpg

We already have JSOW. Pakistan got these prior to the F-16 deal.
It was reported in Pakistani newspapers including DAWN and GEO and many others.

Pakistan Acquires AGM-154 BVR Missiles From US​

March 16th, 2006:The US has provided Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with AGM-154 'Beyond Visual Range (BVR)' stand-off missiles, ostensibly to target terrorist hideouts. While state-run news agency said Pakistan has attained another landmark in modern missile technology by producing a joint standoff weapon system capable of hitting "over-the-horizon" targets with accuracy, AGM-154 system was provided by US ahead of President George W Bush's visit to the country. According to the daily, the announcement of Pakistan acquiring the BVR missile system came at the Corps Commanders meeting presided over President Pervez Musharraf on Tuesday.

The system uses technologies called 'Integrated Global Positioning System' and Inner-shell Management System Navigation and could engage targets 70 km away. This apparently is the first BVR missiles the PAF has acquired that could be fired from a distance without coming into visual contact with the enemy. It could be fired from fighter jets fitted with sensors. As part of equipping Pakistan with military hardware to fight terrorists, US has granted approval to sell latest models of F-16s and supplied a fleet of helicopters, transport and sea surveillance planes.​

95th Corps Commanders Conference Review

March 14th, 2006: The senior commanders were told here Tuesday that Pakistan was now equipped with Beyond Visual Range standoff weapon system that can fight terrorists as well as insurgents in the country. The AGM 154 system has been provided by USA under its anti-terror package which includes many systems including BVR standoff weapon. Raytheon of USA has developed this system for the Air Force and the Navy. The AGM-154A (formerly Advanced Interdiction Weapon System) is intended to provide a low cost, highly lethal glide weapon with a standoff capability. JSOW family of kinematically efficient, air-to-surface glide weapons, in the 1,000-lb class, provides standoff capabilities from 15 nautical miles (low altitude launch) to 40 nautical miles (high altitude launch). The JSOW will be used against a variety of land and sea targets and will operate from ranges outside enemy point defences. The JSOW is a launch and leave weapon that employs a tightly coupled Global Positioning System (GPS)/Inertial Navigation System (INS), and is capable of day/night and adverse weather operations. The JSOW uses inertial and global positioning system for midcourse navigation and imaging infra-red and datalink for terminal homing. Commanders were told that the milestone achievement will take care of Pakistan’s internal and external security concerns. This weapon system will also put at rest concerns expressed by some commanders lately over the breach of Pakistan’s sovereignty by Allied Forces with a particular reference to Bajour incident. Bajour killings had attracted severe criticism from people of Pakistan, political parties and even from within the armed forces. With the induction of new system Pakistan Army combating terrorism will be able to hit targets without coming into direct contact with well dug terrorists.

The induction of the standoff weapon system has also lent comfort to those commanders who are fighting insurgents in Balochistan and terrorists in Wana and tribal areas. The new system will also serve as a shot in the arm for the ruling alliance who is braving opposition rallies in the name of protest against blasphemous cartoons. Commanders reposing complete confidence into the leadership of President General Pervez Musharraf and his policies firmly declared that blasphemous cartoons are matter of grave concern to every Pakistani but nobody will be allowed to draw political advantage out of it. They agreed that such elements will be dealt with an iron hand. And nobody will be allowed to disturb law and order situation in the country.