Buddha Civilization in Swat Valley Pakistan

[LogiCal]

Once again with the nonsensical Indian logic. .......

To prove your logic......give us a source about Lord Buddhas ancestry......don't just rant....

I am giving you a source supporting my point of view.........that Buddha was a born Hindu.....
http://www.buddhist-tourism.com/buddhism/religion/buddhism-hinduism.html

Unless you can give a source.....don't claim that Buddha wasn't HINDU........

If you don't back up your claims with proper support(sources)......you look like a fool....

 

[Rusty]

You are contradicting yourself here buddy......

People generally tend to believe that the extremists of any religion.....are the real followers of that religion.....as they interpret and follow the teachings of their religion very strictly....

In this essence, Taliban are the real followers of Islam.....and when they are intolerant towards other religions(citing Quran), then we can assume that Islam is Intolerant towards other religions.....

Now, since you are going against the teachings of Quran, we can assume that you are not a pious Muslim.....and we cannot take your word for it.........

This is a joke right?
Please tell me you are joking?
how old you are?
did you ever pass high school?
Do you know how many logical fallacies you have made?
oh man where to start?
(takes a moment to stop laughing so hard)
Okay, I am okay
1. what contradiction? where have I ever said Taliban represent Islam? WHERE? point it to me and I will agree with anything else you say!
Do you know what contradiction means?
From the merriam-webster dictionsary
"a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something"
Contradiction - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

2. If A=B and B=C then A=C
You simply made up a bunch of definitions (that no one in their right mind would agree too) and used the formula above to come to your silly conclusion.

3. That sounds like the kind of logic I hear from a lot of Islamophobe hate sites, especially christian ones.
So......have you been doing a lot of "research" from hate sites?
And if so, why? why do you hate? why not love?

I don't know about your religion, but in Islam, who is a Muslim is only between the person and God. No one has the right to tell me if I am a Muslim or not.
Of course I can't expect such enlightened teachings from everyone.

 

[Rusty]

I can understand you are too hurt that you were made to look like a fool because of your previous posts.Why is it always a girl who love s amuslim guy why isnt it that a hindu boy runs away with a muslim girl.But at the end of it a hindu girl is always found to be married or raped by a muslim boy.Whereas a hindu boy is always found dead not married to a muslim girl .guess why?Because these are just excuses.I am not saying that such things dont happen in india.but the undigestable truth for you people is that the minority population % is increasing in india whereas its declining in pakistan.
Remember those pakistani hindus which recently came to india on tourist visas but now dont wanna go back.Why?

Pak Hindus want to remain in India; making Delhi their home

LOL seriously?
You guys are a joke.
I have to teach you people English half the time we talk.
And you can't even make a cardboard box look like a fool much less another human being.

Also why is it that you people only argue half the points?
You made up some nonsense about Aurangzeb, I called you out and you simply went quiet.
Oh man, you really made me look like a fool there
But it is hard to argue when you have to make up lies to support your points. And making lies is hard work.

"I am not saying that such things dont happen in india"
So you admit that it happens in India, and yet you are making it out be like a Pakistani only problem.
This is what I like call "The Indian Special ability" It's a God given ability to every Indian where they are able to exhibit extreme hypocrisy and yet not even be phased by it. In fact I think most Indians are proud of this one.

Also, you didn't really address my point, in India MASSES of people are forced to convert to Hinduism.
But I know you can't really say much about that since it is common knowledge and it's hard to make up lies to cover it up.
As for the Pakistani bit, well it seems like you agree with me. These "Forced conversions" are just family problems and nothing else. Kid's fall in love, families don't approve, so being kids, they cry forced conversion so their mothers wont beat them.

And finally, if Hindus want to remain in India then good for them. Pakistan is a free country with no compulsion. But it sure looks like Indian Government doesn't want them. So much for the Shining India.

 

[DRaisinHerald]

you do not understand hinduism fully, i advise you not to make half baked ignorant comments.

I was talking about buddism you fool

 

[haviZsultan]

Why are you trying to claim something that lies in Pakistan anyway? Why don't you Indians stop trying to claim everything that lies in Pakistan and call it Indian.

And Rusty is right in a way. In any country when one religion becomes dominant the other religions are weakened. Official patronage plays a part. You can blame the Muslims for weakening Zoroastrianism (Conquest of Persia) but you can't claim they converted the Buddhists because Buddhism was already on the decline when Islam came to the region which was in 714 AD under Mohammed Bin Qasim. Budhism declined around 300 AD to be replaced by Hinduism as the dominant religion. Don't believe me, here:

Buddhism remained as the dominant force in the Indus Valley till the 4th Century AD when it was replaced by Hinduism. Buddhism remained a minor force in the region but in the coming years its influence would decline further and further.

Religious persecution. The Muslims weren't the only ones who converted others.

In the south of India while there was no overt persecution of Buddhists at least two Pallava rulers Simhavarma and Trilochana are known to have destroyed Buddhist stupas and have had Hindu temples built over them. Bodhidharma, a patriarch of Zen Buddhism was of the original Kshatriya caste

*Nothing against Hindus, these things are bound to happen in a period of intolerance and when the official religion is something else. It happens!

Decline of Buddhism in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Furthermore the Buddhist structures in Pakistan are from Asoka's time. Asoka's Mauryan Empire and his succeeding empires were replaced by what? Hindu Nations not Muslim Nations.

Its just childish, who cares anyway. In any case if this belongs to anyone its the Buddhists who made all of those shrines, stupas and everything else. Then it belongs to us Pakistanis because we own the land where its all located.

Now why not cut the crap and stay on topic?

 

[LogiCal]

..............No one is arguing about the Origins of Buddhism.
If you cannot stay on topic then please spare us with your crazy talk.

So you agree that Lord Buddha was a born Hindu!

Now tell me, how can you be so sure that your ancestors were Buddhists and not Jains or Hindus......before being converted to Islam??

The Buddhist kingdom(Gandhara) didn't cover the whole of modern day Pakistan....It lied partly in Afghanistan and Pakistan....(Infact most of it lied in Afghanistan--a tiny portion in Pakistan)

Therefore, You cannot LogiCally assume that, the entire population of modern day Pakistan at that time were Buddhists.....

Please reply........

 

[haviZsultan]

Post #54

"Hinduism" did not exist until 1800s.

So saying Hinduism did this or that in Ancient or medieval India is oxymoron.

Hinduism did nothing. Did I say anything against Hinduism. Abay bhai har cheez competition hoti hai tum logo ke liye? Islam ne ye kiya, Hindu ne woh kiya? When will our people grow out of this childish mindset?

How can you be so naive? At one point you say Hinduism is the oldest religion in the World at the other you are saying it came only in 1800's. I fear you know nothing about your own religion. Hindus would beat the crap out of me if I said something so naive. Being from India, you claiming something like this is like a total surprise. Aren't you taught in history about the Mauryan Empire and Hinduism at that time. Asoka was a Hindu who converted to Buddhism.

Here's when Hinduism existed:

The prehistoric Indus Valley civilization is believed to have declined by around 1500BC, and Vedism appeared in its place, with the composition of the Vedas and related Vedic Sanskrit texts.[21] However, it is possible that Vedism was influenced by a substratum of Indus Valley civilization culture.

By the early centuries CE, Indian philosophy was divided into Astika (orthodox) and Nastika (heterodox) depending on whether the authority of the Vedas was accepted. The Astika group was further divided into six branches, evolving from about the 2nd century BCE to the 6th century CE, viz. Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Mimamsa, and Vedanta.

Originally Hinduism succeeded Buddhism as the dominant religion but there are many centuries they lived in harmony together as well.

---------------------------------

Let me get this thread back to topic....

For my book I was researching the Butkara ruins, which are in Swat. Two terrorist commanders meet there within the book. You can go to my site, I have an excerpt from that.

However I learned a lot from the research. Try these pictures. Its about the Butkara ruins and the Butkara stupa in Saidu Sharif. Swat is gifted with a lot of the ruins from its Buddhist past. There are even ruins at Batkhela and other places:

Theres also a video:

Pakistan Swat Valley Mingora Butkara 1995 - YouTube

 

[russellpeters]

4 long pages and little sense.

First thing. Pakistan is a geographic entity, its cultural/historical relevance is only 60 years old.

Please get this right. I cannot argue on this just like I cannot argue on whether the sun is hot. It is self evident.

Secondly Hinduism is a nonsense term. Try arguing this with me..

Thirdly there is no comparison between Buddhism and Islam. Buddhism is the opposite of whatever Abrahmic ideologies in the garb of Islam, Judaism, and Xianity. They have no comparison.

Buddhism is the ultimate level till which the Eastern philosophy has flowered. Frankly if you ask me so called Hinduism has more similarities with Islam. Buddhism is wholly atheistic. And I love it!

So let us see what is what...Here is Buddhism 101 for pakistani posters. Atleast know what you are talking about


Buddhism and Hinduism have no concepts of judgement and eternity in Heaven
Buddhism and Hinduism have no concepts of eternity in Hell.

Buddhism denies the existence of permanent soul, hinduism denies that the soul is different from God.
Buddhism denies the existence of a God, Hinduism denies the idea of a Deity.
Both accept the idea of Ignorance-avidya

Both place importance on meditation and self-enquiry.
Both do not hold the scriptures to be orthodox, and allow innovation and changes as suit the practitioner.
Both converge in the use of Tantra and Yoga.
Both accept the existence of a liberation, while the Buddhists consider the recognition of sunyata, the Hindus believe that the person-identity is dissolved into God-identity.

Both are re-commendatory in nature.
There are no commandments in either paths.
Both accept the dharmic ideals, and consider the world to be illusory.

Philosophies such as Advaita Vedanta, are very close to the Mahayana form of Buddhism (Also remember Buddhism is not a monolithic entity).

Infact Adi-shankaracharya was often accused by people of being a Buddhist, because the Advaitists do not accept the idea of a seperate God.

Modern Hinduism is Advaitist in nature, and resembles Buddhism very closely.Modern Indian philosophers (including very orthodox Hindu ones) have held the Buddha in very high regard.

Unlike "buddha civilization in swat valley pakistan" , Buddha Charit, a redaction of the life story of the Buddha is required reading in Hindi Secondary courses.

Lastly the two teachers of meditation that the Buddha had where Hindus like himself. They were Alama and Uddraka Ramaputra. They taught meditation techniques to the Buddha.When the Buddha had completed the teaching, he went on to meditate in the forests. When he attained nirvana, he returned to share this experience with them, but by then both had died.

If you have some logical arguments please bring them forward. do not show your ignorance by rambling about something you dont have the faintest clue about.

 

[Bhairava]

Either way, it is so amazing to see our original religion before they were forced to convert to Hinduism.
We need to preserve all this and show to the world what our ancestors were, so they don't start believing Hindu propaganda that we were Hindus by choice.

The evidence is easy, look at the Hindu invaders from India to Pakistan. Before them we were Buddhists and then once Hindu invaders came, over night we were Hindus with no Buddhists left. The only way to have 100% conversion rate in a short period of time is forced conversion. Muslims ruled India for 800 years and they only managed to convert 15% of the population, thus proving no forced conversion, but in case of Pakistan, we had no more Buddhists in less then 100 years of Hindu invasion..

DO you know the founder of Buddhism - Buddha was born a Hindu named Siddhartha..?

 

[Karachiite]

Dare I say the only one.

Zoroastrianism and the Bahai Faith are also in there.

 

[seethru]

Hinduism did nothing. Did I say anything against Hinduism. Abay bhai har cheez competition hoti hai tum logo ke liye? Islam ne ye kiya, Hindu ne woh kiya? When will our people grow out of this childish mindset?

How can you be so naive? At one point you say Hinduism is the oldest religion in the World at the other you are saying it came only in 1800's. I fear you know nothing about your own religion. Hindus would beat the crap out of me if I said something so naive. Being from India, you claiming something like this is like a total surprise. Aren't you taught in history about the Mauryan Empire and Hinduism at that time. Asoka was a Hindu who converted to Buddhist.



Originally Hinduism succeeded Buddhism as the dominant religion but there are many centuries they lived in harmony together as well.

You will understand that dichotomy once you go beyond Wikipedia. I don't blame you for your ignorance. For starters Read Romila Thapar for understanding evolution of This religion that we call "Hinduism" today.

you may be right about Kids who come here on PDF for laughs but serious people or Indians in general don't involve in di8k measureing contests because the Indian cultural environment fuc8ks up our brains to a point where we don't see 'US' vs them anymore.
And, i couldn't help but notice you wrote "Swat is gifted with a lot of the ruins from its Buddhist past."(i know you meant about archaeological value, but i am tempted to say this anyway) It's not a gift if you have Buddhist ruins. It would have been a gift if sawt had Buddhism alive. Look at Tibet, even under occupation. An important reason for their moderation against resorting to violence is Buddhist Ethos.

 

[Bhairava]

Actually there is a concept of Heaven (Swarg) and Hell (Narakam) in Hinduism.

Garuda Puran details the punishments for various crimes in hell.

But the greatest punishment given is rebirth.

 

[Rafi]

Proud of our great land of Pakistan, where history was made.

 

[seethru]

Actually there is a concept of Heaven (Swarg) and Hell (Narakam) in Hinduism.

Garuda Puran details the punishments for various crimes in hell.

But the greatest punishment given is rebirth.

Puranas are for the consumption of general Population. They are like Stories mixing Fiction and reality. Ex: Arabian Nights

 

[haviZsultan]

DO you know the founder of Buddhism - Buddha was born a Hindu named Siddhartha..?

And a Buddhist would never agree that the founder of Buddhism was a Hindu... and so the foolish debate goes on...