BSF chopper crashes in Raipur

[Abingdonboy]

He doesn't have to, It's common sense!!

No it is an ignorant POV and hence a stupid Q. If he knew anything he'd see the Dhruv's have been in service for close to a decade with operation fleet numbering 170-200 units with orders for ~300-350 and in that time about 5/6 have been lost. This is a very safe ac. Of these crashes most have been attributed to pilot error or weather and 0 due to technical reasons. Of these crashes only one crew was lost with the others being protected by the ALH's plethora of safety features. Very few modern helos can claim such a record especially given the diverse and hostile terrains Indian Dhruvs operate in.

 

[Harry Potter]

10 IAF helicopters had crashed.

10 helicopters in 4 years,not bad.(2.5 crashes/year)
Note:Even Pakistan crashed 3 helicopters in 2011.

 

[Roybot]

No poorly designed aircraft!

Which part is poorly designed?

 

[Indus Falcon]

No it is an ignorant POV and hence a stupid Q. If he knew anything he'd see the Dhruv's have been in service for close to a decade with operation fleet numbering 170-200 units with orders for ~300-350 and in that time about 5/6 have been lost. This is a very safe ac. Of these crashes most have been attributed to pilot error or weather and 0 due to technical reasons. Of these crashes only one crew was lost with the others being protected by the ALH's plethora of safety features. Very few modern helos can claim such a record especially given the diverse and hostile terrains Indian Dhruvs operate in.

Real face of DHRUV:

Problems plague advanced light helicopter Dhruv - Rediff.com News
Problems plague advanced light helicopter Dhruv
Last updated on: August 5, 2010 20:56 IST

Even after 10 years of its production, the indigenous Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv still depends heavily on imports as most of its components are procured from foreign sources, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has said.

In its latest report, the CAG said, "90 per cent of the value of material used in each helicopter is still imported from foreign suppliers. Even though the Dhruv is in production for 10 years, the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has not been able to find indigenous suppliers."

"The envisaged indigenisation level of 50 per cent is yet to be achieved," the report added.
Pulling up HAL for the delay in addressing quality issues facing the chopper, the report said, "for its delay in addressing the Tail Rotor Blade (TRB) issues, the Company had to forgo expected revenue of Rs 16.32 crore on the lease of two helicopters to Israel and Karnataka government, which were not used."

The CAG said HAL should investigate into the reasons behind failure of engines, as it had to withdraw them before their scheduled overhaul period of 2000 hours due to earlier mishaps.

It pointed out that the weaponised version of the chopper has not yet been developed even after a lapse of ten years and the Rs 138 crore spent on the project have "not resulted in any tangible benefits."
The report pulled up the premier aerospace company for its inability to get international safety certifications for the chopper, which has prevented it from penetrating international market.

It said that due to non-availability of required certification, the HAL "could not get orders from Turkey for two ALH on lease though the MoU was signed in October 2008".

The report said that despite getting certification from the DGCA and having a dedicated marketing wing, the company has not been able to penetrate the Indian civil market also.

"The company could not successfully execute even the orders received from the civil market," it added.
The report said that despite delivering 74 helicopters in the last nine years to the defence services, the HAL has not been able to complete the technical documentation to get the approval for the chopper.

"The acceptance of the ALH by defence forces with the concessions could be a contributing factor for the slow pace in achieving the standards by the company and delay in overcoming the operational deficiencies," it observed.

On the more powerful Shakti engines for the chopper, the central auditors said the whole programme is yet to be certified and has been delayed by three years resulting in postponement of delivery schedules in 2009-10.

The report said the chopper was supposed to have empty weight of 2.24 tonnes and replace the ageing Cheetah/Chetak fleet of choppers but due to its excess weight, it was found "unsuitable" for the task.

The HAL has now equipped the chopper with Shakti engines and claims that the ALH meets the requisite payloads.

The report also slammed the HAL for not freezing design of the chopper in time resulting in making 363 modifications in choppers supplied to the armed forces.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Real face of DHRUV:

Problems plague advanced light helicopter Dhruv - Rediff.com News
Problems plague advanced light helicopter Dhruv
Last updated on: August 5, 2010 20:56 IST

Even after 10 years of its production, the indigenous Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv still depends heavily on imports as most of its components are procured from foreign sources, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has said.

In its latest report, the CAG said, "90 per cent of the value of material used in each helicopter is still imported from foreign suppliers. Even though the Dhruv is in production for 10 years, the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has not been able to find indigenous suppliers."

"The envisaged indigenisation level of 50 per cent is yet to be achieved," the report added.
Pulling up HAL for the delay in addressing quality issues facing the chopper, the report said, "for its delay in addressing the Tail Rotor Blade (TRB) issues, the Company had to forgo expected revenue of Rs 16.32 crore on the lease of two helicopters to Israel and Karnataka government, which were not used."

The CAG said HAL should investigate into the reasons behind failure of engines, as it had to withdraw them before their scheduled overhaul period of 2000 hours due to earlier mishaps.

It pointed out that the weaponised version of the chopper has not yet been developed even after a lapse of ten years and the Rs 138 crore spent on the project have "not resulted in any tangible benefits."
The report pulled up the premier aerospace company for its inability to get international safety certifications for the chopper, which has prevented it from penetrating international market.

It said that due to non-availability of required certification, the HAL "could not get orders from Turkey for two ALH on lease though the MoU was signed in October 2008".

The report said that despite getting certification from the DGCA and having a dedicated marketing wing, the company has not been able to penetrate the Indian civil market also.

"The company could not successfully execute even the orders received from the civil market," it added.
The report said that despite delivering 74 helicopters in the last nine years to the defence services, the HAL has not been able to complete the technical documentation to get the approval for the chopper.

"The acceptance of the ALH by defence forces with the concessions could be a contributing factor for the slow pace in achieving the standards by the company and delay in overcoming the operational deficiencies," it observed.

On the more powerful Shakti engines for the chopper, the central auditors said the whole programme is yet to be certified and has been delayed by three years resulting in postponement of delivery schedules in 2009-10.

The report said the chopper was supposed to have empty weight of 2.24 tonnes and replace the ageing Cheetah/Chetak fleet of choppers but due to its excess weight, it was found "unsuitable" for the task.

The HAL has now equipped the chopper with Shakti engines and claims that the ALH meets the requisite payloads.

The report also slammed the HAL for not freezing design of the chopper in time resulting in making 363 modifications in choppers supplied to the armed forces.

Yes, the ALH has had it's fair share of problems but for a first try it has been a runaway success. The two pics you have posted are of the SARANG IAF helo aerobatic team, the nature of thier work is inherently dangerous and the crash of this helo does not reflect any issues with the ALH. The Blue Arrows face similar issues of crashes given their work but that doesn't bring into question the success of the F-18.

Check out what the awesome pilots of the IAF can do with these great machines:

And the second pic shows nothing but a misfire by the smoke dispenser not an issue with the craft.

And can you really comment- stones, greenhouses?

 

[Roybot]

Well helicopters are more prone to crash landings and crashes than planes. Dhruv is no exception.

Look at the statistics for civilian chopper crashes in UK alone.

Helicopter Safety | Accident Statistics for One Year

And here's the data from America.

http://helicopterannual.org/portals/27/pdf/ann_p2c5.pdf

So 4 crash, and 3 crash landings in 9 years for the HAL Dhruv is not all that bad.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Abingdonboy, very constructive posting and excellent common sense. For a first time programme of this scale and size the dhruv is a runaway success. With an enviable order book and now the LCH also based on dhruv and again due for orders in the hundreds, the one thing we can expect is some famous small mindedness from the usual suspects. We hope it will lead to better sleep at night, I know it leads to mine

 

[Windjammer]

No it is an ignorant POV and hence a stupid Q. If he knew anything he'd see the Dhruv's have been in service for close to a decade with operation fleet numbering 170-200 units with orders for ~300-350 and in that time about 5/6 have been lost. This is a very safe ac. Of these crashes most have been attributed to pilot error or weather and 0 due to technical reasons. Of these crashes only one crew was lost with the others being protected by the ALH's plethora of safety features. Very few modern helos can claim such a record especially given the diverse and hostile terrains Indian Dhruvs operate in.

All four were killed when one crashed in April last year and the co-pilot was killed when during rehearsals one of the Sarang machine went down.

 

[Abingdonboy]

All four were killed when one crashed in April last year and the co-pilot was killed when during rehearsals one of the Sarang machine went down.

Yes, one crew- not one crew MEMBER, the ENTIRE CREW. And I purposely didn't include the co-pilot's death because that would be an unfair reflection on the machine given the nature of his job, it is highly doubtful any helo in the world would have protected him any better than the ALH.

So 4/5 deaths in 10 years (not including the 7-8 years of flight testing before this period) truly not a bad record by any international measure. The BlackHawk, V-22, Chinook,Huey, Mil-17, EH-101 etc all have far worse records in this respect. But obviously this is an entirely ignorant POV you have selected as it doesn't take into account pilot error/technical issues or number produced of fleet flight hours or nature of work. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[Windjammer]

Yes, one crew- not one crew MEMBER, the ENTIRE CREW. And I purposely didn't include the co-pilot's death because that would be an unfair reflection on the machine given the nature of his job, it is highly doubtful any helo in the world would have protected him any better than the ALH.

So 4/5 deaths in 10 years (not including the 7-8 years of flight testing before this period) truly not a bad record by any international measure. The BlackHawk, V-22, Chinook,Huey, Mil-17, EH-101 etc all have far worse records in this respect. But obviously this is an entirely ignorant POV you have selected as it doesn't take into account pilot error/technical issues or number produced of fleet flight hours or nature of work. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

I guess cheap banter comes in abundance to some....for all your effort, a reminder is in place that rather than trying to talk out of context, you need to update your self with certain facts and figures. For example, apart from the two discussed incidents involving fatalities, another crash late last year resulted in the death of all those on board.
Indian Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), Dhruv Crashes ~ Bharat Military Review

And reading above and the following also makes your claim that all crashes were all but technical snags, fall flat.

The Hindu : News / National : Dhruv helicopter crash-lands while rehearsing for air show

 

[tjpf]

I see a few Pakistanis getting jealous of the Dhruv's Indian and international success . Let them carry on . Doesn't change anything .

they ridicule our economy, our armed forces, bad mouth us about poverty, religious bias towards minority and blame us for terrorist attack anddddddddddd claim they won all the war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

all that its not!!!!!!!!
you seriously think you expect sane and balanced views here????????????

 

[Windjammer]

I see a few Pakistanis getting jealous of the Dhruv's Indian and international success even though this thread has nothing to do with the dhruv . Let them carry on . Doesn't change anything .

enjoy this innovative Pakistani helicopter -

Look at the pride .

Indian Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in his report has said, "As against the envisaged indigenisation level of 50% (by 2008), 90% of the value of material used in each ALH is still imported from foreign suppliers."

 

[SyedF]

I see a few Pakistanis getting jealous of the Dhruv's Indian and international success even though this thread has nothing to do with the dhruv . Let them carry on . Doesn't change anything .

enjoy this innovative Pakistani helicopter -

Look at the pride .

It's a GYROCOPTER!! NOT a helicopter!!!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Indian Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in his report has said, "As against the envisaged indigenisation level of 50% (by 2008), 90% of the value of material used in each ALH is still imported from foreign suppliers."

Again another uninformed comment. 90% of the VALUE, not QUANTITY. Yes the few things that are foreign on the ALH are inherently the most expensive single items such as avionics. But what do you expect, again, this is A FIRST ATTEMPT. The Wright brothers didn't design the F-22 straight away. Just like LCA and Arjun (another two points you constantly like to bash India on) were started with minimal technical know how, the ramifications for any offshoots and the Indian defence industry are huge. Many of your compatriots are willing to accept this but not you.

 

[SyedF]

Well CAG report is always 2years old based on findings.
Here's the latest news :
90 percent of Components for HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv Sourced Internally | India Defence

Hope this news might get your WIND JAMMED and you choked to comatosh

Funny how they switched from 90% foreign suppliers to 90% local suppliers!! This is defiantely a good sign as it will have a direct impact on the number of crashes