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‘Brotherly’ countries turn down Pakistan’s request

In democracy, system is build by people(in indirect democracy, by representatives), does not come from outside.
We inherited some from british, used best practices from others which we thought will work(some do others dont).
And yes, Indians deserve the leaders they have, I will be the first to say that.

There are some democracies I really admire. Switzerland and Canada for example.

But then look at the democracies in the developing world. Nigeria, Democratic Republic of Congo, Columbia, etc.

It's not enough to just have a democracy alone. It has to be backed up with a good system, a system that puts the right people in power, a sytem with strong checks and balances.
 
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Good. Pakistan must figure out themselves instead begging two brotherly countries in long-term. They have done enough for Pakistan.

It is about time for Pakistan actions and progress.

pakistan have huge oil/coal reserve in their own country why the government is nit using this if the oil reserve be in the Thar desert in India then why not in pakistan side thar desert.
 
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There are some democracies I really admire. Switzerland and Canada for example.

But then look at the democracies in the developing world. Nigeria, Democratic Republic of Congo, Columbia, etc.

It's not enough to just have a democracy alone. It has to be backed up with a good system, a system that puts the right people in power, a sytem with strong checks and balances.

Well its like a dog chasing its tail. Switzerland and canada did not become admirable from day one.
Democracy puts the people in power that othes want, they are the ones to decide what is right what is wrong.

Which comes first in a democracy, a good system or people who build the good system?
If there is a good system, bad people can come and subvert it, cant they?
 
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Well its like a dog chasing its tail. Switzerland and canada did not become admirable from day one.
Democracy puts the people in power that othes want, they are the ones to decide what is right what is wrong.

Which comes first in a democracy, a good system or people who build the good system?
If there is a good system, bad people can come and subvert it, cant they?

The point of building a good system, is that it lasts longer than any single generation of leaders.

One great leader should have the courage to set a good system, and design it in a way that it is not changed easily without good reason. Unfortunately, that leader will often end up losing their political career afterwards, for making the necessary but unpopular decisions.

Someone in Pakistan needs to take the lead, and make those necessary but unpopular decisions. As above, this will likely lead to the end of their political career, which is why no politician wants to do it.

Jiang Zemin was really unpopular in China when he was President, but he more or less had to work within the system.
 
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Does Pakistan have some kind of "Right to Information" act?

Don't know.

In any case, the problem is not so much about having laws, but enforcing them. Targeted killings and murder are illegal, but most political parties have been guilty of them anyway. To quote "Pirates of the Caribbean", the laws are "more what you'd call guidelines".
 
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You do know the root cause is that the common pakistanis do not pay their taxes right? Easy to blame the govt.

The common Pakistanis do pay their taxes, it is a common misconception that the ordinary people have it easy.
The income Tax has been increasing and the salaried class is really under pressure for quite some time now.

However, the challenge remains to effectively Tax the huge landlord community since we are a major agricultural economy.
The farmers are struggling but the Land Barons are still minting money.

The culture of not effectively checking and punishing the huge loan defaulters has basically destroyed our economy....all the while the ordinary man shall be grilled on loan repayment.
The Bank Of Punjab money scandal was in excess of 50 billion PKR...Loans were used to buy property for the politically influential families instead of setting up businesses....this has been the norm of the land mafia which acquires property on loans meant for industrialization and job creation and defaults on these loans...

I have been paying more Income Tax for past decade than what Nawaz Sharif had been paying and I am not finding it easy to support my family these days...while his style of living is known to all.
This is the problem which needs to be addressed.
How these elite and richest people end up giving relatively little or nothing back to the economy is the core of the problem, whether it is the system which needs to be re tuned or whether it is the implementation of the system which needs to be enforced with iron will...the problem needs to be addressed.

The common man is not the major defaulter, however seeing how the elitists easily avoid taxation...the motivation is there for the common man to not play by the rules.
 
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The common man is not the major defaulter, however seeing how the elitists easily avoid taxation...the motivation is there for the common man to not play by the rules.

I think salaried employees of big corporations are the only group that pay honest tax. Everybody else cheats; even small businesses cook their books. So the 'common man' is very much at fault, unless he is employed by a big corporation. However, I agree that the rich elite are the motivation for the little guy to cheat.

This is no different from Western countries. People here are not angels. Small business here turn all sorts of tricks to minimize their taxes. The only difference is that the enforcement is more strict, so the deception is limited.
 
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The point of building a good system, is that it lasts longer than any single generation of leaders.

One great leader should have the courage to set a good system, and design it in a way that it is not changed easily without good reason. Unfortunately, that leader will often end up losing their political career afterwards, for making the necessary but unpopular decisions.

Someone in Pakistan needs to take the lead, and make those necessary but unpopular decisions. As above, this will likely lead to the end of their political career, which is why no politician wants to do it.

Jiang Zemin was really unpopular in China when he was President, but he more or less had to work within the system.

Comparing Jiang Zemin with democratic elected leader is like comparing apples with tomatoes.
Democratically elected leaders have to do lot of compromise, listen to their people a lot more.

There is no one perfect democracy, the one we have in India reflects our social and political maturity. As we mature in that path, we will get better at it.
Fortunately for India, there is no army to subvert such maturity process, otherwise we would be starting it every 10 years or so, and keep getting bad leaders.
Many regional leaders in India are doing very good job, most Indians here will agree to that.
 
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Don't know.

In any case, the problem is not so much about having laws, but enforcing them. Targeted killings and murder are illegal, but most political parties have been guilty of them anyway. To quote "Pirates of the Caribbean", the laws are "more what you'd call guidelines".

It was more or less same five years ago in India too. A top politician could get away with almost anything, be it murder, corruption or rape..

However, since introduction of RTI act from 2007, this act has been tremendous in unveiling many scams & corrupt politicians. Small NGOs or even individuals had been successful in obtaining informations, which were not possible before that. You must have heard about lot of big Indian scams in the last few years, all thanks to the RTI.

Because of RTI, now-a-days, These jokers at least think twice before doing anything illegal. Doesn't mean it is 100% successful, but I'm sure, it has been succesful in curtailing corruption & illegal activities to some extent.

I guess it'll take some more time for Pakistan's judiciary system to be matured and enforce proper implementation of the laws. Even we (India) have some more way to go too in this regard.
 
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There is no one perfect democracy, the one we have in India reflects our social and political maturity. As we mature in that path, we will get better at it.
Fortunately for India, there is no army to subvert such maturity process, otherwise we would be starting it every 10 years or so, and keep getting bad leaders.
Many regional leaders in India are doing very good job, most Indians here will agree to that.

If you are fine with your current implementation of democracy, then who am I to judge.

I just think that if India was running a well implemented democracy, then they should be ahead of China, rather than trying to catch up and falling behind.

China and India had the same GDP in 1990. Yet today... China is (according to the Economist), 40 years ahead of India in terms of development indicators.

Is that your definition of a well implemented democracy? I think that there is a lot of room for improvement.
 
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If you are fine with your current implementation of democracy, then who am I to judge.

I just think that if India was running a well implemented democracy, then they should be ahead of China, rather than trying to catch up and falling behind.

China and India had the same GDP in 1990. Yet today... China is (according to the Economist), 40 years ahead of India in terms of development indicators.

Is that your definition of a well implemented democracy? I think that there is a lot of room for improvement.


India is not China we can't put a red mark on a building and remove it like you can here people will vote u out :agree:

---------- Post added at 10:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 AM ----------

In China the goverment can take your land/farm etc and you can't do nothing about it

---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 AM ----------



here those who protested were beaten up and many were OAP
 
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In China the goverment can take your land/farm etc and you can't do nothing about it

Didn't you hear about the protests in Wukan?

They rioted and demanded that the National Government come and arrest the local officials, and compensate them for their land.

And that is exactly what the National Government did. They arrested the corrupt officials and compensated the villagers.

BBC News - Deal in China rebel village Wukan welcomed
 
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Didn't you hear about the protests in Wukan?

They rioted and demanded that the National Government come and arrest the local officials, and compensate them for their land.

And that is exactly what the National Government did. They arrested the corrupt officials and compensated the villagers.

BBC News - Deal in China rebel village Wukan welcomed


That was a recent case but I have seen many other videos before, this one is worth watching it shows how new cities are coming up in pushing urbanisation but many people are left behind.


China's Unknown Mega City of Chongqing 1 of 2 - BBC Our World Documentary - YouTube


What works for China might not work for India as we have diffrent ways of doing things.
 
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I guess it'll take some more time for Pakistan's judiciary system to be matured and enforce proper implementation of the laws. Even we (India) have some more way to go too in this regard.

The problem is not the judiciary, but the parliament and executive. These branches are responsible for funding law enforcement, and they are 100% controlled by the feudals. This is why non-Pakistanis are baffled why the army (and Imran Khan) are so popular in Pakistan. It's because the civilian political field is a complete sham. The feudals play musical chars in the name of democracy, but nothing really changes.
 
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OK let's simplify it.

1) Democracy is better than Authoritarianism. Do you agree or not?

If you agree, then why is China so far ahead of India, even though we had the same GDP in 1990?

If you believe that Democracy is better than Authoritarianism, then clearly the implementation of democracy in the developing world has not been good.
 
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