Britain is protecting the biggest ‘Heroin Crop’ of all time

[S-2]

"This is your clusterfck - burn the crops down and no one is sneaking it past your nose and through the north to get weapons and explosives into Pakistan."

No. That would be cruel and we've had more success other ways in other places. You make a mountain out of a molehill and use an old article to do so.

Over and over again with a mantra-like drumbeat. But it doesn't wash well.

The real problem, of course, is the taliban controlling central and southern Helmand and their need for opium to fund the insurgency. That dope is heading south like their soldiers do.

To sanctuary in Pakistan.

It's likely processed there as well and shipped around the world through Karachi. That makes more sense than sending it through so many hands-all with a cut and chance of grabbing it all. Afterall, short of the saintly pashtu, the further north you go the more disreputable and unsavory the characters become.

"That's the plain and simple - its grown in territory under US/NATO control, the weapons are trafficked through territory under US/NATO control."

Any weapons and explosives coming into Afghanistan likely stay there, wouldn't you agree? After all, there are plenty of taliban who need those supplies right there and there's no reason to transport weapons and ammo to Pakistan.

Your nation is awash in weapons already.

Please don't be upset but like so many other things that you thought could be managed with these militants, this is just one more.

They use drugs to fund their wars and they move drugs in the safest and most expeditious way possible. For opium grown in Helmand, Farah, Nimroz, Kandahar, and Orozgan, that route clearly leads south.

Thanks.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Any weapons and explosives coming into Afghanistan likely stay there, wouldn't you agree?

No I don't.
Almost all military, interior ministry, FATA adminstrative and NWFP police reports have pointed to Afghanistan as the source of the weapons pouring into Pakistan.

Pakistan is awash with small arms, however manufacturing is largely the monopoly of the POF, which means the Taliban arsenal of RPG's, rockets, mortars, HMG's, AA Guns etc. cannot be supplied from Pakistan.

The weapons come through Afghanistan, routed either through the CAR's or Iran, and they do so right under your noses. If paid for with drugs, then the drugs flow the same way.

And the drugs too continue to be grown under your noses, in territory the US/NATO is supposed to control.

 

[S-2]

"And the drugs too continue to be grown under your noses, in territory the US/NATO is supposed to control."

US, eh? Britain has the U.N. lead in narcotics eradication in Afghanistan. That's part of the global mandate and has nothing to do with OEF.

You know that, of course. Please get your facts straight.

America, as good soldiers in this collective effort (need to show we can follow in this age of collective security) has done a superb job of reducing opium through much of the country.

The British have had a particularly hard time and so too the Canadians because your government has permitted the Quetta shura full run of Baluchistan in an effort to purge the Baluchi nationalist insurgency.

This, naturally, has made the work of the Canadians and British especially challenging. I know that you're not surprised by my comment that Britain had never heretofore been south of Garmsir. It's just a fact of life. They've traveled 4,000 miles, though, to be and die there helping Afghanis.

I like them more than the P.A. that lets the taliban attack the Brits and Canadians from Quetta sanctuaries.

No. That Helmand dope is heading south to your lands and is buying all the weapons needed from the gulf arms dealers. Easier by far than whatever b.s. your security guys spew.

What incentive do those guys have to say that your problems lie within their domain? None and they don't. Too easy to tell your public and you what you're so eager to hear and read.

Hidden hands.

Remember, A.M., I don't believe that your nation is under assault from without. Not one bit. Like one or two others here, my mind is also decided on a few matters.

Thanks.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

Guys, I'm not too sure about the kind of weapons being used in the militancy. However, There is a huge illegal arms manufacturing industry in Pakistan, contrary to what Agnostic is saying.

Here is an old article from 2003 about arms industry in the autonomous region:

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Darra Adam Khel rings a bell?

 

[A.Rahman]

In 1980's CIA was backing all the drug traffickers of Contra movements in Nicaragua.

CIA was/is involved in drug trade and money laundering to support its operations.

 

[S-2]

"CIA was/is involved in drug trade and money laundering to support its operations."

Oh they indeed have had a sordid reputation to include stories of Air America flights from Vientiane to Saigon loaded down with Laotian opium.

In any case, what's relevant is TODAY's C.I.A. and your comment. Here's where the magic word of "proof" once again rears it's ugly but necessary head.

Please provide some indication of how the C.I.A. is supporting opium cultivation and heroin refinement in Afghanistan if you wouldn't mind?

This is the salient component of your comment and deserves greater exploration, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Patriot]

The source you have listed at number four is THE largest and most far reaching source of income for Taliban.
1) According to UNODC Afghanistan is responsible for 92 percent of global output of opium.
2) Each year, the country produces about $4 billion worth, or 53 percent of gross domestic product of the country.
3) Helmand alone accounts for 66 percent of the production (see the attached map). This province was first under British control and has been in US control for past two years if i am not wrong.
4)In year 2007 according to UNDOC's estimates nearly 500 million dollars of the 4 billion dollar figure went directly in insurgency. That figure is very unlikely at the lower side in 2008 and very highly likely at the upper side.

Following is from the article " The Taliban: An Organizational Analysis" hosted at US military's Combined Arms Center website.


"Drug revenue. The last key resource is the illegal drug trade, which provides revenue and other benefits. With improved irrigation and more rain, Afghanistan has virtually become a narco-state.47 record 2006 opium harvest was worth over $3 billion.48 2007 estimates are even higher. Afghanistan
currently produces 93 percent of the world’s opium—almost one-half of Afghanistan’s gross domestic product comes from this trade.49 The exact amount the Taliban receives from it is unclear, but they tax farmers, landowners, and drug traffickers. While the group initially vowed to eliminate opium, they look to it now as a necessary evil to further their cause: not only does it generate funds for the insurgency, but it poisons the decadent West, especially Europe, which gets 90 percent of its heroin from Afghanistan. drug traffickers and the Taliban help each other with weapons, personnel, and money, all to destabilize the Islamic Republic of (IROA)."
-
Now America still have not done anything seriou to stop it and this is causing huge problems for Pakistanis and Talibans get money from Afghanistan and then Launch Attacks on Pakistan.Is CIA in bed with Talibs which is why USMil is not completely bombing these fields?I mean they can literally invent a new weapon for just finishing opium stuff and yet they are spending billions on weapons but can't finish the drug business..this sounds lame to me.This clearly indicates that America is not interested in winning but the war but prolonging it's stay in Afghanistan.S-2 will now give lame excuses that we can't do that or local public will hate us the drug lords will kill us like ants etc...The fact is both countries have to trust each other completely and then we can win this war.America must give more power to Pakistan.

 

[S-2]

"This province was first under British control and has been in US control for past two years if i am not wrong."

Still British controlled and commanded in RC-South by a Dutch general. We've got troops there and we'll have more coming. Eventually (one year-two years) we'll dominate the south-likely.

Right now we're the junior partners there and just trying to be good team players. It's a British show there and a British-led anti-eradication program on behalf of the U.N. throughout the country. They and the Canadians also have the toughest turf.

Nimroz and Farah? I don't know who the fcuk has that (Italians?) but that's maybe 20,000 hectares. Double the rest of the nation but one-sixth of Helmand, Kandahar and Oruzgan. 127,000 hectares right there in those three provinces.

"Now America still have not done anything seriou to stop it and this is causing huge problems for Pakistanis and Talibans get money from Afghanistan and then Launch Attacks on Pakistan..."

Now saadahmed, you're a reasonable man and have access to the UNODC report I have posted on this thread. Did you read it as I asked?

If so, then you saw on figure 3, pg. 18 a breakdown of hectares cultivated since 2005. By province...with regional re-caps to boot. All you need to track BY PROVINCE the ebb and flows of opium in Afghanistan.

If you read THAT figure, you'd have noted the remarkable job America has accomplished with our allies in all areas but the south. Look closely at opium production in the other regions and see the clear trend, please?

You'll note that Nangahar (U.S. RC-East) was tied with Helmand for 1st place in opium cultivation in 2005 at about 29,000 hectares apiece. Helmand has grown since to 103,000 while Nangahar has gone to ZERO.

Did you see that? Did you see the other American-controlled areas? Do you really care about the truth because it is right before you if you wish to look?

I've also posted the ICOS incidence map so you can correlate the violence in Afghanistan to opium. It's clear that Kandahar, Oruzgan, and Helmand are heavily contested areas. Little wonder.

The taliban have much to protect there.

The most relevant information is very, very available to those who wish to learn instead of relying upon stock and comforting assumptions.

Thanks.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

S-2:

Major transportation routes

Southwest Asian heroin

The bulk of Southwest Asian heroin is moved overland to market destinations. Afghan heroin moves to markets in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East through Iran, Pakistan, and Central Asia. An estimated 40% of the heroin and morphine from Afghanistan moves through Iran. Iran reports significant seizures of opium and heroin from smuggler convoys which are increasingly well-armed and capable of traveling at night.

Two primary routes are used to smuggle heroin: the Balkan Route, which runs through southeastern Europe, and the Silk Route, which runs through Central Asia. The anchor point for the Balkan Route is Turkey, which remains a major staging area and transportation route for heroin destined for European markets. The Balkan Route is divided into three sub-routes: the southern route runs through Turkey, Greece, Albania and Italy; the central route runs through Turkey, Bulgaria, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Slovenia, and into either Italy or Austria; and the northern route runs from Turkey, Bulgaria and Romania to Austria, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland or Germany. Large quantities of heroin are destined for either the Netherlands or the United Kingdom.
Click to enlarge


Although the Balkan Route is considered the primary supply line for Western Europe Afghan and Central Asian traffickers smuggle heroin along the Silk Route into Russia, the Baltic States, Poland, Ukraine, the Czech Republic and other parts of Europe. Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, K azakhstan, and Turkmenistan are vital transit countries, with an estimated 24% of Afghan heroin smuggled along this route.

A trend that appears to be developing is the shipment of large quantities of heroin to European markets. Several multi-hundred kilo seizures have taken place in the last year, possibly as a result of a willingness to risk larger quantities knowing that a ready source of heroin remains available. Another possibility is the stockpiling of heroin for European markets.
Interpol - Drugs Sub-Directorate

Add the totals of the two major routes through Iran and the CAR's and you are looking at 64% of total Afghan drug production being shipped through the two major sources of weapons into Afghanistan, and into Pakistan.

Take the blinkers off - Pakistan is neither growing the poppy, nor is it the major transport route for the drugs and weapons trade. That remains territory under US/NATO control.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Guys, I'm not too sure about the kind of weapons being used in the militancy. However, There is a huge illegal arms manufacturing industry in Pakistan, contrary to what Agnostic is saying.

Here is an old article from 2003 about arms industry in the autonomous region:

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Darra Adam Khel rings a bell?

Darra Adam Khel does not have the capacity of manufacturing the quantity and quality of weapons available to the militants.

While the people there may rightfully be proud of doing whatever they could to supply the Mujahideen, there was a reason why billions in Saudi and CIA funds were used to purchase weapons from elsewhere. The capacity of the local manufacturers is designed to fulfill domestic 'peacetime' demand - not arm militias during a war.

The weapons come through Afghanistan.

 

[S-2]

While written in 2009, this data is based upon 2006.

"Add the totals of the two major routes through Iran and the CAR's and you are looking at 64% of total Afghan drug production being shipped through the two major sources of weapons into Afghanistan, and into Pakistan."

I wonder how much of that Iranian heroin went from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Iran. I suspect a lot.

"Take the blinkers off - Pakistan is neither growing the poppy, nor is it the major transport route for the drugs and weapons trade."

At least 36% of Afghan heroin is moving through your nation to foreign destinations. I know that you agree with that. As such, it is competing closely with Iran, according to your INTERPOL data as the preferred route.

Last? Central Asia.

"That remains territory under US/NATO control."

What does. Areas south of Garmsir? Sorta like FATA, eh? We'll be done with this before you've moved a kilometer west.

I understand, A.M. At this point, ANYTHING to diminish our efforts. I know, though, that you too are a reasonable man and can see the trend lines are dramatically different than you'd like to contend. You know that I'm correct about the afghan taliban's close relationship to opium when in power and now.

I don't think you see very many weapons from Tajikstan. Your article made clear most of those weapons are staying in the country. Of the rest that are sold at Landi Kotel, so? There's so much sold there I can't possibly believe that you'd suggest their entire marketplace is comprised of weapons from Tajikstan.

It isn't. That's a world famous drug and guns market on your turf.

No. We must stop this now. Your nation has it's very own terribly long legacy of governmental corruption and aiding/abetting the narcotics trade. Even by your own article there is no less than 36% moving directly through Pakistan to foreign destinations. I further believe that much of Iran's 40% comes via Afghanistan through Pakistan.

If in 2006 only 24% of Afghanistan's heroin moved through the north and the rest of the nation now has in 2008 less than 8,000 hectares of opium grown in it, I'd expect those numbers now are much lower. That makes a ton of good sense to me.

Thanks.

 

[roadrunner]

Dostum, the "head of the Afghan Army".

Oh dear. We do have imbeciles in charge over in Afghanistan.

On the drugs, I think you're feeding a troll here. You can't produce that many hectares of opium indoors, without people knowing. The US knows perfectly well where the poppy fields, and labs are.

 

[S-2]

"We do have imbeciles in charge over in Afghanistan."

So from what nation are the brilliant guys who've lost FATA and SWAT again?

"The US knows perfectly well where the poppy fields, and labs are."

Maybe. It would seem if UNODC knows that so too America...or Great Britain.

Reminds me of the militants in FATA and SWAT. Everybody knows where they are. Not the same as doing something about it.

Roadrunner, you always underwhelm me.

Really.

Thanks.

This board should be so lucky to have more "trolls" using UNODC and ICOS links to support inflammatory arguments. Yes indeedie...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

While written in 2009, this data is based upon 2006.

I am open to more recent data on smuggling routes from the UN or Interpol.

I wonder how much of that Iranian heroin went from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Iran. I suspect a lot.

Possible, but we are back in speculation mode.

The interpol report clearly points out two major routes - through Iran and through the CAR's.

At least 36% of Afghan heroin is moving through your nation to foreign destinations. I know that you agree with that. As such, it is competing closely with Iran, according to your INTERPOL data as the preferred route.

I fail to see where the interpol report suggests that 36 percent of the heroin is being exported to foreign destinations through Pakistan - it leaves that percentage unassigned. A significant amount of that 36 percentage could also be local consumption, or, after local consumption, the remainder might be the amount smuggled from Pakistan to Iran, since Turkey and the Balkans form one of two primary routes.

Either way, it places Iran in the position of being the major transit country.

What does. Areas south of Garmsir? Sorta like FATA, eh? We'll be done with this before you've moved a kilometer west.

I understand, A.M. At this point, ANYTHING to diminish our efforts. I know, though, that you too are a reasonable man and can see the trend lines are dramatically different than you'd like to contend. You know that I'm correct about the afghan taliban's close relationship to opium when in power and now.

I hope you are done with this soon, its going on ten years as of now with record drug production levels - the proof will be in the pudding.

As to diminishing your efforts, I don't have to try, the numbers speak for themselves and you have only yourself to blame for the pathetic effort.

I don't think you see very many weapons from Tajikstan. Your article made clear most of those weapons are staying in the country. Of the rest that are sold at Landi Kotel, so? There's so much sold there I can't possibly believe that you'd suggest their entire marketplace is comprised of weapons from Tajikstan.

It isn't. That's a world famous drug and guns market on your turf.

While I understand that you tend to get besieged by arguments from all directions, attributing others arguments to me is really annoying (ethnicity, which province the drugs are grown in etc. and now this Tajikistan thing). The article I posted is merely meant to point out that drug and weapons smuggling occurs through the north - a fact validated by the Interpol report suggesting almost a third of Afghan heroin is smuggled to foreign destinations through the North. And by North I am referring to the CAR's, Russia, Eastern Europen nations along with Iran, and not just Tajikistan.

This influx of weapons from Afghanistan has been pointed out time and again over the past few years by the Military, Interior Ministry and NWFP and FATA officials (as I pointed out earlier).

The 'famous drugs and guns markets' in Pakistan are supplied from Afghanistan. Pakistan is awash in weapons because of Afghanistan and the plethora of weapons that were dumped in Afghanistan during the Afghan Jihad.

No. We must stop this now. Your nation has it's very own terribly long legacy of governmental corruption and aiding/abetting the narcotics trade. Even by your own article there is no less than 36% moving directly through Pakistan to foreign destinations. I further believe that much of Iran's 40% comes via Afghanistan through Pakistan.

If in 2006 only 24% of Afghanistan's heroin moved through the north and the rest of the nation now has in 2008 less than 8,000 hectares of opium grown in it, I'd expect those numbers now are much lower. That makes a ton of good sense to me.

As I said before, if you have newer numbers on this I am willing to listen, but beyond that it is mere speculation, and I have argued above why I disagree.

The numbers and evidence are clear - Afghanistan serves as the major source of drugs and weapons into Pakistan.

 

[Sambha]

Isn't growing Opium legal in some places in Afghanistan? At least it's legal and licensed in some places in India. It's used to extract many alkaloids for medicines.

But the possibility of a narcotics misuse is always there, one will have to agree.