Breaking: TTP Want IK to be Included in Govt Committee

[cleverrider]

Please elaborate.

First part
The "Government" selected incompetent men to take the Peace talks/dialogue forward. (Maybe buying time for an Operation, currently its winter).

Second part
Both "organizations" Have killed many innocent people since their creation. (The army have disappointed me on many occasions and have failed many times to do their job) Makes me seriously doubting their Seniors.

Third part
The innocent people of Pakistan have suffered immensely because of these "organizations".

Unbiased Perspective.

 

[Icarus]

First part
The "Government" selected incompetent men to take the Peace talks/dialogue forward. (Maybe buying time for an Operation, currently its winter).

Who would you suggest then for the team? Besides, a winter offensive would suit the Govt because passes into Afg will be closed which means that the TTP cannot withdraw into Afghanistan and the highest peaks will be vacant which the Army with their High-Altitude Warfare expertise will be able to occupy, thus giving them a vantage point covering the valley without having encountered any resistance.

Second part
Both "organizations" Have killed many innocent people since their creation. (The army have disappointed me on many occasions and have failed many times to do their job) Makes me seriously doubting their Seniors.

The TTP target civilians, the Army targets whoever challenges the state.
The TTP look for soft targets and attack civilians to maximize casualties, the Army tries to avoid unnecessary casualties.
The Army is state sanctioned, the TTP work on their own and foreign agendas.

There is no comparison between the two.

Third part
The innocent people of Pakistan have suffered immensely because of these "organizations".

Your analysis in incorrect and I am sure the happy populace of Swat, Bajaur, Buner, Dir, Orakzai, Kurram, Khyber, Malakand, etc will be happy to contest this claim of yours.

 

[cleverrider]

Who would you suggest then for the team? Besides, a winter offensive would suit the Govt because passes into Afg will be closed which means that the TTP cannot withdraw into Afghanistan and the highest peaks will be vacant which the Army with their High-Altitude Warfare expertise will be able to occupy, thus giving them a vantage point covering the valley without having encountered any resistance.

The TTP target civilians, the Army targets whoever challenges the state.
The TTP look for soft targets and attack civilians to maximize casualties, the Army tries to avoid unnecessary casualties.
The Army is state sanctioned, the TTP work on their own and foreign agendas.
There is no comparison between the two.

Your analysis in incorrect and I am sure the happy populace of Swat, Bajaur, Buner, Dir, Orakzai, Kurram, Khyber, Malakand, etc will be happy to contest this claim of yours.

I am not in a Position to suggest anyone and fair enough you know better than us its your area. I Based it on the previous operations that were done in the summer.

Don't want to go into details to prove anything... Just plain facts...! Since Army creation... how many innocent Pakistani civilians have died due to army operations and Since T T P creation how many innocent Pakistanis have they killed.

You do the maths.
Don't even get me started on their policies.
We know the history & the facts, lets just hope whatever happens is best for Pakistan.

 

[Icarus]

I am not in a Position to suggest anyone and fair enough you know better than us its your area. I Based it on the previous operations that were done in the summer.

Fair enough.

Don't want to go into details to prove anything... Just plain facts...! Since Army creation... how many innocent Pakistani civilians have died due to army operations and Since T T P creation how many innocent Pakistanis have they killed.
You do the maths.

Not a lot really, apart from the 71 war, the Pakistan Army's collective conduct with civilians has never been under question and 71 too is increasingly scrutinized by academics and revised figures and timelines suggest that the issue was massively distorted in the aftermath of Pakistan's defeat.

Don't even get me started on their policies.

Discussion is what we're here for.

We know the history & the facts, lets just hope whatever happens is best for Pakistan.

That's always the hope.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

If all of them are so good why TTP make them part of their team. I believe it's government who has to decide their team that can pursue its point of view. This is the non serious attitude of TTP and is making mockery of the issue. Molvi Aziz of Lal Masjid, javed Paracha and shah Abdul Aziz are sides of same coin in the cover of parties and groups. I have no objection if they form TTP side.

State has to nominate those persons for talks who have some respect and credibility among taliban. You dont send anti-taliban guys to them if you want negotiations to be successful. You can send major generals or najam sethi and his munna to negotiate with taliban but such peace talks would fail at very first stage. In my opinion governament should nominate
1- Only deobandi ulemas for govt committee, no barelvi or shia ulemas.
2- Pashtuns preferrably from FATA ,rustam shah mohmand is a good choice with good diplomatic skills....
3- No military related guy, this major amir should be removed from the list.
4- Rahimullah yousafzai is a bad choice, .....it should have been saleem safi who belongs to tribal areas and has far greater grasp on taliban and affairs of FATA than rahimullah.

 

[Icarus]

State has to nominate those persons for talks who have some respect and credibility among taliban. You dont send anti-taliban guys to them if you want negotiations to be successful. You can send major generals or najam sethi and his munna to negotiate with taliban but such peace talks would fail at very first stage. In my opinion governament should nominate
1- Only deobandi ulemas for govt committee, no barelvi or shia ulemas.
2- Pashtuns preferrably from FATA ,rustam shah mohmand is a good choice with good diplomatic skills....
3- No military related guy, this major amir should be removed from the list.
4- Rahimullah yousafzai is a bad choice, .....it should have been saleem safi who belongs to tribal areas and has far greater grasp on taliban and affairs of FATA than rahimullah.

This would be a polarized panel for talks, Pakistan is a diverse country and if the TTP are interested in peace, they have to establish peace with the entire country. The government decide their panel as they see fit and the TTP have to accept or reject it in totality, I doubt the Japanese asked the Americans to redraw their panel at the time of the Japanese surrender to include only Japanese-Americans who could understand their culture or what not.

BTW, Saleem Safi was asked to represent the panel but he declined.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Fair enough.



Not a lot really, apart from the 71 war, the Pakistan Army's collective conduct with civilians has never been under question and 71 too is increasingly scrutinized by academics and revised figures and timelines suggest that the issue was massively distorted in the aftermath of Pakistan's defeat.



Discussion is what we're here for.



That's always the hope.

Bohat sahi baat ki....Pakistani air force is showering flowers on tribal areas for decade. Tanks and artillary are shooting gulab jamans on villages and towns of FATA....
In 50000 killed pakistanis, 28000 suspected taliban killed are included...suspected militants also include heavy collateral damage...also 4 thousands tribals are killed by pak army's approved drones...so in official statistics, among 50 thousands pakistanis, more than 30 thousands are those killed by pak army whether they were taliban or collateral damage.
Actual casaulties in FATA are much higher, there is a reason why free media is not allowed in FATA...details of mir ali massacre got leaked as dawars are relatively educated people. I wont be surprised if more than 50 thousands tribals are killed in military operations. We also dont know the fate of disappeared tribals by agencies. FATA has suffered most due america and their slave army.

 

[Icarus]

Bohat sahi baat ki....Pakistani air force is showering flowers on tribal areas for decade. Tanks and artillary are shooting gulab jamans on villages and towns of FATA....

Do you expect a war to be fought with confectioneries? The Taliban fight with tools of their trade, Suicide Bombers, IEDs, Mines and Ambushes and the military fights with theirs.

In 50000 killed pakistanis, 28000 suspected taliban killed are included...suspected militants also include heavy collateral damage...

There are no reports of "Heavy" collateral damage in their entire war aside from a botched bombing run in Khyber which hit the Kookikhel, who were and still are fighting alongside the military in Khyber. The Kookikhel Lashkar is still patrolling their area.

also 4 thousands tribals are killed by pak army's approved drones...so in official statistics, among 50 thousands pakistanis, more than 30 thousands are those killed by pak army whether they were taliban or collateral damage.

Your figure is entirely bogus, official estimates place civilian casualties at 67 but I will consider that a biased source and quote the New America Foundation, an Anti-War organization which held it's own inquiry in the drone attacks and produced a figure of 307 civilians killed in drone attacks to this point, which is still a long shot from your figure of 4000.

Actual casaulties in FATA are much higher, there is a reason why free media is not allowed in FATA...details of mir ali massacre got leaked as dawars are relatively educated people

I concur that the casualty estimates will be higher as it does not accommodate those who as a result of battlefield injuries but not immediately. Please elaborate on what you mean by the Mir Ali massacre?
.

I wont be surprised if more than 50 thousands tribals are killed in military operations. We also dont know the fate of disappeared tribals by agencies. FATA has suffered most due america and their slave army.

That's an overinflated figure and the tribals have remained largely safe from violence due to their migration from domestic areas during operation, if their people had been killed, they would not have been making Lashkars to support the Army in their struggle.
The people of FATA have struggled indeed, all of Pakistan has but it was because of the MMA govt which allowed their terrorist brethren to spill across the border and into Pakistan. The Army has been welcome in FATA, wherever they have gone, they have found the support, co-operation and admiration of the locals.

 

[Hyde]

when the team was announced I was joking that Imran Khan should have become part of the committee. In one way this is right as if now the dialogue process is failed, PTI may finally stand up against the Terrorists and support government in eliminating this greater fitnah of today's era.

I hope PM listens to their proposal and add Imran Khan at least. I don't like the idea of including Sami ul Haq and Maulana Abdul Aziz so hope that it be rejected. I do not know rest of them.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

This would be a polarized panel for talks, Pakistan is a diverse country and if the TTP are interested in peace, they have to establish peace with the entire country. The government decide their panel as they see fit and the TTP have to accept or reject it in totality, I doubt the Japanese asked the Americans to redraw their panel at the time of the Japanese surrender to include only Japanese-Americans who could understand their culture or what not.

BTW, Saleem Safi was asked to represent the panel but he declined.

This peace committe is to keep the taliban and pakistani public busy till march, military operation is already decided.
And you are wrong that taliban cant escape into afghanistan in winter, its not lawari tunnel that gets blocked in winter....its fauji jawans who wont be able to effectively operate on ground in winter...you would give me training in siachin, but here you are dealing with gurrella insurgents who can make better use of terrain even in winter....your army is unfamiliar with terrain and enviroment as they are usually locked in army camps, can not patrol the villages in NW and move only with imposition of curfew.

 

[Icarus]

This peace committe is to keep the taliban and pakistani public busy till march, military operation is already decided.

Like I said, Army could go in right now.

And you are wrong that taliban cant escape into afghanistan in winter, its not lawari tunnel that gets blocked in winter....its fauji jawans who wont be able to effectively operate on ground in winter...you would give me training in siachin, but here you are dealing with gurrella insurgents who can make better use of terrain even in winter....your army is unfamiliar with terrain and enviroment as they are usually locked in army camps, can not patrol the villages in NW and move only with imposition of curfew.

They are mountain passes, any snow leads them closed because passing them is treacherous in winter.
And why won't Army men be able to operate in winter, NWA is hardly feets below snow. its just like any other agency. It's the mountain tops that will have some significant amount of snow which is why they can be taken with little effort.
The Army has operated in other areas in FATA and thus has a fair understanding of the terrain and environment.
They will begin patrolling when they are ordered to, don't you worry.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Do you expect a war to be fought with confectioneries? The Taliban fight with tools of their trade, Suicide Bombers, IEDs, Mines and Ambushes and the military fights with theirs.



There are no reports of "Heavy" collateral damage in their entire war aside from a botched bombing run in Khyber which hit the Kookikhel, who were and still are fighting alongside the military in Khyber. The Kookikhel Lashkar is still patrolling their area.



Your figure is entirely bogus, official estimates place civilian casualties at 67 but I will consider that a biased source and quote the New America Foundation, an Anti-War organization which held it's own inquiry in the drone attacks and produced a figure of 307 civilians killed in drone attacks to this point, which is still a long shot from your figure of 4000.



I concur that the casualty estimates will be higher as it does not accommodate those who as a result of battlefield injuries but not immediately. Please elaborate on what you mean by the Mir Ali massacre?
.

By mir ali massacre i mean the collective punishment of people of mir ali in retiliation to attack on khajori check post....more than 70 civilians were killed by faujis...several of my marwat tribesmen also got killed in the hotel, they were lined up and shot at point blank range...you have the right to deny it, it is your professional duty.
In miranshah and surrounding villages, innocent civilians have been killed for years due to shelling of pak army on populations as collective punishment policy whenever they suffered casaulties in attack of taliban at check posts. Mir ali is different story, they are educated and have presence in media, your army thought they would get away with indiscriminate shelling of mir ali.
And most of the aman lashkars are forced to be created by political agents, he has the right to do so according to FCR. Those lashkars who were genuinely raised by tribes, did so in their hate for taliban not in love for army.

 

[BATMAN]

Army should arrest all in the OP photo and be trialed in military court.

 

[pakdefender]

In miranshah and surrounding villages, innocent civilians have been killed

bullshit bakwas that 'inncoent civilians' have been killed , those taken out in air strikes and ground operations are those who have been making war against the state , these haram khors are not 'innocent civilians'

Recently the tehrik e talipakhans thought that the armed forces have had a change of leadership , lets test them hence the started of with bombings ... the new army leader ship fucked them dry with retaliatory air strikes .. after that TTP has now resorted to create confusion in the minds of those Pakistanis that still dont understand the true nature of the khanzeers.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

bullshit bakwas that 'inncoent civilians' have been killed , those taken out in air strikes and ground operations are those who have been making war against the state , these haram khors are not 'innocent civilians'

Punjabdefender, you are a straightforward person and you have said many times that its tribals who are cancer of pakistan since 1947 and that all 7 million tribals should be nuked...i even reported you several times for your blatant anti-pashtun BS. So ofcourse for you no tribal is innocent...i was talking to @Icarus, for peopldm like you i use very different langauge, ghair-parlimani zaban.