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BrahMos From On High

All you have against Brahmos is a paper document?

Show me atleast one test video where Stinger has shot down cruise missiles like Tomahawk. Also, it should be from non-American media source. Then we can discuss about supersonic cruise missiles.

Are you serious? :what:
 
Well Well - I don't want to take you guys off topic - but then before writing comments please understand what you write about a nation whose citizens have achieved extraordinary feats:

1. Aryabhatta - Invented the Numerals System and "0" without which no worthwile discovery was ever possible.

2. Invented Wireless Communication - Jagdish Chandra Bose - I believe he is the same guy after who the famous BOSE brand is names.

3. Vinod Dham - Without whose contribution your USofA would not have gone past the 486.

Some questions for you?

4. Why does Nasa employ so many Indians?

5. Heard of IIT - why do companies like McKinsey & Co. only look for graduates from IIT and they study on funding provided by institutions like MIT, Stanford, Harvard, etc

6. Why is Warren Buffets successor an Indian?

7. Why are Pepsi's and Citibank's CEOs Indians?

8. Why does Lockheed Martin employ Indians and to lure them also provide immediate PR.

Cmon really I believe if you wanted to make a derogatory statement like that then you would know if it was right or wrong to write something like that. In case you did not then you can ignore my post.

:cheers:

There is no doubt that many of the smartest and greatest minds out there are Indians. People have doubts about India as a country produce advance weaponry as nothing India develop by itself (without TOT or co-development or joint venture) is successfully. Which is wierd as Indian engineers are some of the best in the world. But if you consider the Indian beauracrats and politicians plus a traditional culture of lack of mobility, it becomes obvious that the environment in India, rather than individual Indians, that is causing India from reaching its fullest potential. So for any Indians that want to find success, go west.
 
Can you do me one simple favor?From next time if you wanna reply my post,dead it as a while,but not chop it to manipulate my words according to your logical explanation.Here I see is you being moulding my reply for your convinience to only put the answer you have. I wonder is why US is offering research grants to universities which is what you are saying?this is what you are doing :US is on high,untill Japs kicked its butt.Even its not worth for me to keep wasting my time on a person who pretends that he knows,but finally fails.
but how can you avoid being painted by the passive seeker?(which is after the capital ships radar emission).
also try to understand whats being painted means,byt different types of radars.Radar in theory can paint all types of targets.It is only the Tx/Rx and DSP unit that decides the nature.But at the end ,painting has different meaning in different contexts you apply.
Still many of my questions from the last 2 days get unanswered,instead people jump on the rhetoric to prove brahmos is dummy,becaus US have no such equivalent.Esle we would have been hearing tons of replies and repeated fanboy propaganda just like F-22.

errrrrrrr........ I understand now why people dont like to be considerate dealing with US people. :tdown:
Painted? You should really stop using slangs along with nonsensical statements. For those of us who have relevant experience in the subject in discussions, you look outright silly. I suggest you look up my past commentaries and explanations on basic radar principles and see how silly you sound.
 
Provide a proof for your claim that a Stinger can shoot down missiles like Tomahawk or more advanced Brahmos.
Did I say that? You need to slow down on your reading. All I did was explained the differences between situations. In a tail chase situation, the hunter must have greater attainable speed than the hunted. In a head-on interception, all that is needed is the closing speed, which is the combined speed of both vehicles, to either destroy the targeted missile or throw it off course via aerodynamic instability.

Also, if "Stinger is enough to shoot down a supersonic cruise missile" as you claim, then why USA need to waste money on Patriots development, which are still a failure after 2 decades of development?
The Patriot-like system is about creating head-on interceptions. The Nike-Zeus interceptor decades ago was well on its way to be an effective kinetic kill interceptor...

MissileThreat :: Nike-Zeus
Although the Nike-Zeus did not collide with the Atlas, it came within two kilometers of its target, close enough that the 400 kT nuclear warhead of a fully operational Nike-Zeus would have destroyed the ICBM.
The problem with a head-on interception is that in the event of a miss, the interceptor has practically no chance to reacquire the target, which is the descending warhead. Therefore the burden is heavily weighted against seeker-guidance technology. The Patriot and its similar programs are geared towards %99.999 accuracy in such head-on interception. The Patriot program is a waste? Now you are sounding like the Iranians and the Chinese: If we cannot do <something> no one else can. :lol:
 
No intention to troll here however a very simple question for DBC/Gambit...

Will the same argument that hypersonic speeds means more RCS and thue easy prone for counter attacks will hold true agaisnt the below given effort as well????

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...can-strike-any-country-less-than-60-mins.html
You are using a very misleading argument...

Prone - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1 : having a tendency or inclination
An increased in target RCS does not mean the body itself has its RCS increased but rather that its track contributed to an increase in its detectability because of off-body sources, such as heat exhaust which we have seen can be, but not inevitably so, detected by radar. It is no different that if I continuously eject chaff clouds in my track.

The problem lies not in detectability but in severely compressed response time due to the attacker's high speed. Ground radar are line-of-sight limited and what the US is developing exploits that vulnerability. Not every country have orbiting satellites and it is those objects that offers the greatest line-of-sight. Against a country that does not have orbital sensors specifically designed for defense, by the time an American missile can be detected at the horizon mark, the missile's speed would make it nearly impossible for the defender to respond.

That is why the word 'prone' is misleading.
 
How? A chaff bloom can be thousands of square km to a radar receiver. The point of a chaff bloom is to create a condition where it is %99.999 improbable, not impossible, for a radar receiver to distinguish between bodies whose radar returns rose above background noise. In other words, BEFORE you can distinguish what is 'real' from what is 'decoy' you must be able to see both. But if all you have is a blanket field of noise in front of you...
That is were AI on brahmos comes into equation.
Another meaningless statement. How does this 'artificial intelligence' able to see through an electronic blanket created by a chaff bloom? What I see here is nothing more than throwing up acronyms for the sake of having acronyms.
 
In a head-on interception, all that is needed is the closing speed, which is the combined speed of both vehicles, to either destroy the targeted missile or throw it off course via aerodynamic instability.

That theory has been around since decades in academic "papers". In practice, even developer has failed to show that Stinger can shoot down supersonic missiles.

So unless you have some credible defense against Brahmos, show it. We can discuss that. Theories on paper don't suffice.

The problem with a head-on interception is that in the event of a miss, the interceptor has practically no chance to reacquire the target, which is the descending warhead. Therefore the burden is heavily weighted against seeker-guidance technology.

Yes, we know the limitations of patriot system. So, whats your point?
 
And all you have FOR the Brahless are paper claims.

I never made any claims. I think, it was your colleague who started picking up paper theories from western academics, to make laughable claims about F-22's overhyped RCS.
 
Painted? You should really stop using slangs along with nonsensical statements. For those of us who have relevant experience in the subject in discussions, you look outright silly. I suggest you look up my past commentaries and explanations on basic radar principles and see how silly you sound.

And you sound arrogant while reluctant in accepting facts.
From a radar engineer perspective-Painting on radar screen is illuminating the target or getting a clear view of what the target is or bound to do. But not painting some yellow/red paint on the MFD.Also mind you,different people from different regions use different slangs,but principals/logics wont differ.

You call yourself a mil professional without knowing what a passive seeker can do.I accept that my english is not highly professional,but not subjects which I reveived a masters degree for.

There is strictly no need for me to go search after a psuedo malicious manupulating poster. Again these are not acrymonyms used to phrase a sentence,but used to describe what you are doing for the last couple of days.

You absolutely looked pissed when going after my slangs instead of going against the actual essence of the post/theory in general.I certainly dont think this should be the way a so called knowledgeable person with hands on experience on all sorts of mil hardware from infantry systems to naval combat management systems reply.Either you are exaggerating or pretending to be.

Did I say that? You need to slow down on your reading. All I did was explained the differences between situations. In a tail chase situation, the hunter must have greater attainable speed than the hunted. In a head-on interception, all that is needed is the closing speed, which is the combined speed of both vehicles, to either destroy the targeted missile or throw it off course via aerodynamic instability.

That only works when a target has almost "0" manueverability and is dumb following a predecribed trajectory aka early BMs with basic RV or some other artillery shells inviting an interceptor.
But sadly your mate DBC often brings your posts as reference was hell bent on bringing down a brahmos with a stinger.

From the same link you provided:
On July 19, 1962, a Nike-Zeus fired from the Army’s Kwajalein Missile Range in the Pacific Ocean “intercepted” an Atlas ICBM launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base, California. Although the Nike-Zeus did not collide with the Atlas, it came within two kilometers of its target, close enough that the 400 kT nuclear warhead of a fully operational Nike-Zeus would have destroyed the ICBM.(5)
On December 22, another Nike-Zeus missile fired from Kwajalein came within 200 m of a target reentry vehicle, thus increasing its demonstrated accuracy. Over the next two years, 10 out of 14 flyby “intercepts” of mock target reentry vehicles were successful. This proved that that U.S. military had finally acquired the ability to hit a bullet with a bullet, provided that the interceptor was armed with a nuclear bullet.(6)

Yet the Nike-Zeus had its drawbacks. It was vulnerable to decoys and countermeasures, unable to discriminate between targets, and relatively slow compared to the incoming ICBMs. In addition, each interceptor cost $1 million, which meant that it would cost the U.S. military more to offset the Soviet ICBMs than it would cost the Soviets to deploy them.(7) For these reasons, the Kennedy administration was unconvinced that Nike-Zeus would work. In 1961, the program was deferred.(8) In 1963, it was phased out in favor of a new project: the Nike-X.(9)
And your reply related to the above link:
The Patriot-like system is about creating head-on interceptions. The Nike-Zeus interceptor decades ago was well on its way to be an effective kinetic kill interceptor...

This simply attests the fact, that you neither know whats a kinetic kill is and unable to understand what was said in the same link you provided. And you say: I suggest you look up my past commentaries and explanations on basic radar principles and see how silly you sound.

Just a single reply from you contradicts what you posted. Is it worth the time going after all your previous posts or so called commentaries?
I cant simply spend my valuable time on literatures.

The problem with a head-on interception is that in the event of a miss, the interceptor has practically no chance to reacquire the target, which is the descending warhead.
Which is not certainly true again from the mouth of a mil professional.one has to be specific about both the target and intereptor.And both speeds.
Interceptor has practically no chance, if and only if its dead slow compared to target,its onboard radar seeker tracking capability,mission computer processing capability, availability of mid-course guidance,..... If its an ill fated interceptor, its not even worth wasting $ in developing it.

Therefore the burden is heavily weighted against seeker-guidance technology. The Patriot and its similar programs are geared towards %99.999 accuracy in such head-on interception. The Patriot program is a waste?

Last week I was contacted by the Defense Investigative Services and told that an article I had published more than two months ago contained classified information. The subject of that article was the performance of the Patriot air-defense system in the Gulf War. In my opinion, the article lays out an overwhelming case, based solely on the analysis of unclassified public data, that the technical performance of the Patriot in the Gulf War was very low, and in fact, the system almost certainly failed to intercept almost all warheads it attempted to engage. I have further argued that the public perception of Patriot success is purely based on misconceptions and misinterpretations of observations by the television and print press during the Gulf War. ABC News was so impressed with the evidence that it ran a nearly unprecedented four and a half minute story on this issue in their prime time national news broadcast. The MacNeil/Lehrer National News program also ran a major story on this subject, and this committee began an investigation of Patriot performance that was initiated in part due to the information brought to light by my analysis.
an american source : Improper Use of the Classification System to Suppress Public Debate on the Gulf War Performance of the Patriot Air-Defense System

Now you are sounding like the Iranians and the Chinese: If we cannot do <something> no one else can.:lol:
There you go.Atleast we both share a single phrase and view point.
Same can be said for some posters on this board who degrade or dont trust Brahmos capabilities.
And all you have FOR the Brahless are paper claims.
You sure that you are a professional?
there are many supporting claims on this very internet as videos themself,not just paper.Use google and some common sense.

Ladies and Gentlemen,would I beg just for a couple of minutes of your time to present you Mr.Gambit aka mil professional on defence.pk who was reluctant to accept brahmos demostrated capabilities and wants fellow members to accept a hypothetical missile program.
An increased in target RCS does not mean the body itself has its RCS increased but rather that its track contributed to an increase in its detectability because of off-body sources, such as heat exhaust which we have seen can be, but not inevitably so, detected by radar. It is no different that if I continuously eject chaff clouds in my track.

The problem lies not in detectability but in severely compressed response time due to the attacker's high speed. Ground radar are line-of-sight limited and what the US is developing exploits that vulnerability. Not every country have orbiting satellites and it is those objects that offers the greatest line-of-sight. Against a country that does not have orbital sensors specifically designed for defense, by the time an American missile can be detected at the horizon mark, the missile's speed would make it nearly impossible for the defender to respond.
That is why the word 'prone' is misleading.
This is more than enough of your biased ,self contained baseless arguments.

Another meaningless statement. How does this 'artificial intelligence' able to see through an electronic blanket created by a chaff bloom? What I see here is nothing more than throwing up acronyms for the sake of having acronyms.

The Active/passive seeker on brahmos is built with integrated ECCM.Its not about use of an acronym, but application of the said acronym in the system itself.
Unless you uncover that blanket blinding your view,there is a very of help to get you convinced(which ofcourse is of little or no interest to me) AI on brahmos starts acting right after launch. i.e after feed with initial co-ords and target type.Right after that,it doesnt need any interaction or interface from human or ship based sensors(which are optional).It just cruises all the way to target according to its own planning and flight controls while evading ECM and manuevers avoiding detection while changing flight profiles.And in a group co-ordination mode, no need to even describe it-its just an awesome sighting.(I personally witnessed a simulation)

gambit said:
When was that? Last month?
No.When the first TD flew.I heard that it is going to have a metal golf ball sized RCS(but every one who boasted consistently failed to provide me at what distances,and about the enemy radar specifications which is the whole RCS depends upon.)
And today that golf ball sized RCS further went down to insect :blink::blink: along with falling down airframe di-electric pannels :devil:
 
And you sound arrogant while reluctant in accepting facts.
From a radar engineer perspective-[]bPainting on radar screen is illuminating the target or getting a clear view of what the target is or bound to do.[/b] But not painting some yellow/red paint on the MFD.Also mind you,different people from different regions use different slangs,but principals/logics wont differ.
Get this straight...You are confused...!!! You may not believe this but it irrelevant what you believe: A radar scope, meaning a display, is NOT a necessity and NEVER has been. It is only for human consumption of information that we include display, aka 'video integration', capability into the things that we invent. If a missile has an active radar guidance system, there is no scope inside the seeker assembly. Various aspects of target information such as altitude and speed, ground or air, are represented as voltage values, digital or analog. Video integration and display of these values ranges from simple 2D graphs like the WW II era Chain Home radar system to highly sophisticated symbolized HUDs. But none are absolutely essential to basic radar detection. So when people like you carelessly uses slang words like 'painting' to explain a complex topic, one that by now we can see you know zilch about, you are misleading those who are genuinely interested but willing to admit their ignorance.

You call yourself a mil professional without knowing what a passive seeker can do.I accept that my english is not highly professional,but not subjects which I reveived a masters degree for.
I do. More than you pretend to know. Much more.

There is strictly no need for me to go search after a psuedo malicious manupulating poster. Again these are not acrymonyms used to phrase a sentence,but used to describe what you are doing for the last couple of days.
You should do the wise thing and do search. Regardless of what you may opine about my personality, so far for all those who have learned some basic facts about the complex topic of radar detection from me, your refusal to take my advice and leave this topic make you look idiotic in their eyes. What I presented in the past was informational, not instructional. For the latter, a person would have to dedicate a good part of his life to learn it. But if all the person seek is information, especially clarifying facts regarding MANY of the fantastic claims abounds in forums like this one, then what I presented in the past will suffice.

You absolutely looked pissed when going after my slangs instead of going against the actual essence of the post/theory in general.I certainly dont think this should be the way a so called knowledgeable person with hands on experience on all sorts of mil hardware from infantry systems to naval combat management systems reply.Either you are exaggerating or pretending to be.
That is a laugh. Assumptions like that can only make you look like the first three letters of the word 'assumption'. And if you had taken my advice you would have known about the 'actual essence of the post/theory in general' because that is what I usually starts with.

In a head-on interception, all that is needed is the closing speed, which is the combined speed of both vehicles, to either destroy the targeted missile or throw it off course via aerodynamic instability.
That only works when a target has almost "0" manueverability and is dumb following a predecribed trajectory aka early BMs with basic RV or some other artillery shells inviting an interceptor.
But sadly your mate DBC often brings your posts as reference was hell bent on bringing down a brahmos with a stinger.
When the approaching missile is finally fixated on a specific target for impact, its terminal flight phase is absolutely non-maneuverable. This is applicable from free falling but GPS-guided bombs to ballistic to cruise missiles. The reason why this non-maneuverable flight phase is necessary is because the aircraft, and yes a missile or a free falling bomb is very much an aircraft, is dependent upon aerodynamic manipulations to keep itself stabilized. The mechanisms for those manipulations are fins, fixed or movable, or through reaction jets. The response speed and rate of those methods directly correspond to the duration of the terminal flight phase. The better the flight control system, the more maneuverable the aircraft and therefore if the subject is a missile, the greater the difficulty for the defense to make an effective interception. Difficulty, not impossibility. I have worked on both sides of this table in the field, from providing feedbacks to flight controls system (FLCS) engineers based upon my ability to respond to their threat missile, to how to shorten this terminal flight phase in order to provide my threat missile with the greatest possible odds of impact success against the defender, in other words, I also worked on the 'threat' side.

So is it possible for a Stinger-type missile to make a head-on interception, kinetic or proximity explosive kill, against another missile? Abso-fvcking-lutely, young man, because what I said about FLCS capability applies both sides of the table. Here is what my American compat originally said...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/783777-post13.html
It does not take a genius to figure that at nearly three times the speed of sound skin IR emissions contribute significantly to the IR signature of the missile in the MWIR(Mid-wavelength infrared) band. In this phase the Brahmos is a magnet for every heat seeking missile in your enemy’s arsenal this includes manpad and stingers. Modern heat seeking missiles are capable of "full-aspect engagements" the seeker is sensitive enough to acquire the target from any position and not just the hot exhaust.
What she said should not be taken litterally as 'the Stinger' weapon itself but 'heat seeker Stinger-type' missile. What she spoke of was not only about FLCS but about the combinant of sensor senstivity AND flight controls response. Passive sensor sensitivity is independent of FLCS response capability and usually outpaces the missile's FLCS capability simply because the FLCS contains far greater mechanical subsystems and they are subjected to a different set of physical laws, such as materials and friction between different materials inside a fin actuator. The analogy here is that a person's eyes, passive sensors, have greater sensitivity and reaction to movements, like a thrown ball, within their field-of-views than his hands can move to catch said ball. That is why we humans must have constand practice in coordination between the two systems. The better ones among us become highly paid professional athletes. Likewise, the better integration produces superior weapons and we have gross disparities between weapons systems among the world's militaries. Sensor and FLCS capabilities and their integration determine the type of guidance laws...For example...

Modern Missile Guidance
Guidance laws design is considered as design of controls. The design procedure is presented in the time-domain and in the frequency-domain. The different approaches, in the time and frequency domain, generate different guidance laws that supplement each other. The proportional navigation is considered also as a control problem. A class of guidance laws is obtained based on Lyapunov approach. It is shown that this class of guidance laws improves the effectiveness of the proportional navigation law for maneuvering and nonmaneuvering targets. The analytical expressions of the guidance law are given for the generalized planar and three-dimensional engagement models for missiles with and without axial controlled acceleration. The negative effect of a computational delay in optical seekers on missile performance and an approach to improve it are considered. The problem of the integrated design of guidance and control laws is discussed.

Proportional navigation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Proportional navigation (PN) (Pro-Nav) is a guidance law used in some form or another by most homing air target missiles. It is based on the fact that two vehicles are on a collision course when their direct Line-of-Sight does not change direction. PN dictates that the missile velocity vector should rotate at a rate proportional to the rotation rate of the line of sight (Line-Of-Sight rate or LOS-rate), and in the same direction.
Note the highlighted in the above sources. Such issues are not part of any press releases nor is how the designers have to make compromises between competing demands and limitations that resulted in those gross disparities.

Your problem in this discussion so far is your refusal to admit that you are ignorant about the many other topics that have less attention in popular media news releases but are absolutely essential to the operation of a particular piece of machinery. The result is that you and people like you are nearly obsessed with acronyms and slangs and have no reservations on throwing them up.
 

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