Brahmos - A ALCM & Brahmos SLCM Variants: Some Urgent Questions

[arp2041]

First test of the Brahmos submarine launched variant on March 20, 2013.


The Brahmos - A ALCM & Brahmos SLCM Variants mandate spending billions of dollars upgrading existing platforms and make them compatible. As it is, Brahmos is a very expensive missile.

It's unprecedented for a weapon system upgrade to require such heavy upgrades of delivery platforms.

Are the costs justified? Could the money have been better spent on downsizing and modifying the existing Brahmos for use from submarine torpedo tubes and medium sized fighters without the need to modify the platforms.

Take the example of the Brahmos SLCM variant that was successfully test fired today (March 20, 2013).

India doesn't have a sub that can use it. Neither is the missile compatible for use with the under construction Scorpene (Project 75) subs.

DRDO is plugging the missile for use on Project 75(I) subs, the tendering process for which has not started! It's unlikely construction of the first Project 75(I) sub will start before 2018. Wouldn't that have been enough time for Brahmos to develop the smaller variant of Brahmos that it claims to have been working on for over a year now?

The SLCM variant of the Brahmos is designed to be carried in a modular launcher within the pressure hull of the submarine, which means the submarine would have to be lengthened by fitting another section.

According to DRDO, a modular Brahmos launcher fitted on a submarine will increase its 'offensive power' without compromising on its 'defensive power' as the torpedo tubes can be fully utilized for defense.

The DRDO plug for the missile needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. No! I will be blunt. The DRDO plug is nonsense!

Launching a cruise missile from a standard torpedo tube is the norm worldwide.

When a submarine launches a missile, it runs the risk of giving away its position to enemy UAV and aircraft. A vertically launched missile pinpoints the location of a sub a lot more than a torpedo launched missile.

Brahmos submarine launched variant fitted on a submarine.

A submarine launching a 5,000 km range strategic missiles from within safety of home waters is one thing, a submarine giving away its position through vertical launch of a tactical missile with a 390 km range is a completely different proposition. The submarine is likely to be in the battle area which is being monitored through aerial recconaissance.

The real reason why DRDO has developed a vertically launched submarine variant of the Brahmos is because the Brahmos will not fit into any torpedo tube.

Brahmos is 9m long, has a diameter of .7m and weighs 3.2 tons. It is significantly larger & heavier than the Nirbhay, which is reported to be 6m, but could be upto 7m long.

Fitting a Brahmos launcher on Project 75(I) submarines will mandate the addition of a section to the standard design of a sub, which will likely compromise to some extent its performance and stealth characteristics, besides being prohibitively expensive. You can be sure the submarine OEM is going to take full monetary advantage from the tweak.

The airborne variant of the Brahmos, Brahmos-A, which is currently under development, can be used by only one fighter in the IAF (Su-30MKI), that too after heavy modifications. The cumulative cost of these modifications would be in billions of dollars. As it is the Brahmos is a very expensive missile. Factoring in the cost of platform upgrade, one wonders what kind of a target would justify the use of a Brahmos, considering it's not a nuclear capable missile.

Development of Brahmos-A ALCM and Brahmos SLCM seem to defy logic. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

In this context please also read the link below:

Brahmos: The Irony about the Smaller Lighter Variant



Brahmos - A ALCM & Brahmos SLCM Variants: Some Urgent Questions

@Abingdonboy @sancho ur take??

 

[Abingdonboy]

First test of the Brahmos submarine launched variant on March 20, 2013.


The Brahmos - A ALCM & Brahmos SLCM Variants mandate spending billions of dollars upgrading existing platforms and make them compatible. As it is, Brahmos is a very expensive missile.

It's unprecedented for a weapon system upgrade to require such heavy upgrades of delivery platforms.

Are the costs justified? Could the money have been better spent on downsizing and modifying the existing Brahmos for use from submarine torpedo tubes and medium sized fighters without the need to modify the platforms.

Take the example of the Brahmos SLCM variant that was successfully test fired today (March 20, 2013).

India doesn't have a sub that can use it. Neither is the missile compatible for use with the under construction Scorpene (Project 75) subs.

DRDO is plugging the missile for use on Project 75(I) subs, the tendering process for which has not started! It's unlikely construction of the first Project 75(I) sub will start before 2018. Wouldn't that have been enough time for Brahmos to develop the smaller variant of Brahmos that it claims to have been working on for over a year now?

The SLCM variant of the Brahmos is designed to be carried in a modular launcher within the pressure hull of the submarine, which means the submarine would have to be lengthened by fitting another section.

According to DRDO, a modular Brahmos launcher fitted on a submarine will increase its 'offensive power' without compromising on its 'defensive power' as the torpedo tubes can be fully utilized for defense.

The DRDO plug for the missile needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. No! I will be blunt. The DRDO plug is nonsense!

Launching a cruise missile from a standard torpedo tube is the norm worldwide.

When a submarine launches a missile, it runs the risk of giving away its position to enemy UAV and aircraft. A vertically launched missile pinpoints the location of a sub a lot more than a torpedo launched missile.

Brahmos submarine launched variant fitted on a submarine.

A submarine launching a 5,000 km range strategic missiles from within safety of home waters is one thing, a submarine giving away its position through vertical launch of a tactical missile with a 390 km range is a completely different proposition. The submarine is likely to be in the battle area which is being monitored through aerial recconaissance.

The real reason why DRDO has developed a vertically launched submarine variant of the Brahmos is because the Brahmos will not fit into any torpedo tube.

Brahmos is 9m long, has a diameter of .7m and weighs 3.2 tons. It is significantly larger & heavier than the Nirbhay, which is reported to be 6m, but could be upto 7m long.

Fitting a Brahmos launcher on Project 75(I) submarines will mandate the addition of a section to the standard design of a sub, which will likely compromise to some extent its performance and stealth characteristics, besides being prohibitively expensive. You can be sure the submarine OEM is going to take full monetary advantage from the tweak.

The airborne variant of the Brahmos, Brahmos-A, which is currently under development, can be used by only one fighter in the IAF (Su-30MKI), that too after heavy modifications. The cumulative cost of these modifications would be in billions of dollars. As it is the Brahmos is a very expensive missile. Factoring in the cost of platform upgrade, one wonders what kind of a target would justify the use of a Brahmos, considering it's not a nuclear capable missile.

Development of Brahmos-A ALCM and Brahmos SLCM seem to defy logic. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

In this context please also read the link below:

Brahmos: The Irony about the Smaller Lighter Variant



Brahmos - A ALCM & Brahmos SLCM Variants: Some Urgent Questions

@Abingdonboy @sancho ur take??

What is there to say? It is what it is. With every weapons system there are certain compromises one must make.


But I think it is all too easy to criticize, the Bhramos (whether the full-size or "mini" variant) is a VERY potent missile and it is no overstatement to say its introduction into the Indian military is a "game-changer". The capabilities the Bhramos brings to the Indian military largely justifies the expenditure.



However I do not agree with the "billions" figure, the structural modification to the MKIs will be done in conjunction with the "SUPER" SU-30MKI upgrade anyway. As such the writer seems to have assumed the entire UPG cost goes toward the modifications to fire the ALCM and not also for all the avionics and other goodies included in the UPG.

Additionally the IN is not looking to retro-fit the capability to launch the SLCM onto existing/under-construction platforms so the capacity to do so can be built in at the construction phase which will not add all that much at all. Given having the capacity to fire the SLCM BHRAMOS was specified in the RFIs the bidding firms will have plenty of time to prepare detailed plans of how to add this capability to their ships with little expense. if the IN had asked for this way down the line when fabrication had begun, then costs would increase immensely no doubt.


There is no reason to think the costs will be all that great at all.

Launching a cruise missile from a standard torpedo tube is the norm worldwide.

When a submarine launches a missile, it runs the risk of giving away its position to enemy UAV and aircraft. A vertically launched missile pinpoints the location of a sub a lot more than a torpedo launched missile.


Brahmos submarine launched variant fitted on a submarine.

A submarine launching a 5,000 km range strategic missiles from within safety of home waters is one thing, a submarine giving away its position through vertical launch of a tactical missile with a 390 km range is a completely different proposition.

This is also nonsense. When other subs deploy torpedo launched CMs the CMs exit the torpedo bay, travel a few metres horizontally and then ascend immediately to the surface to fire. I can't see how a vertically launched CM, launched when submerged, would give away a sub's position any more than a torpedo-launched CM.


Additionally the 390KM range figure is disputed and very much understated IMHO.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

First test of the Brahmos submarine launched variant on March 20, 2013.


The Brahmos - A ALCM & Brahmos SLCM Variants mandate spending billions of dollars upgrading existing platforms and make them compatible. As it is, Brahmos is a very expensive missile.

It's unprecedented for a weapon system upgrade to require such heavy upgrades of delivery platforms.

Are the costs justified? Could the money have been better spent on downsizing and modifying the existing Brahmos for use from submarine torpedo tubes and medium sized fighters without the need to modify the platforms.

Take the example of the Brahmos SLCM variant that was successfully test fired today (March 20, 2013).

India doesn't have a sub that can use it. Neither is the missile compatible for use with the under construction Scorpene (Project 75) subs.

DRDO is plugging the missile for use on Project 75(I) subs, the tendering process for which has not started! It's unlikely construction of the first Project 75(I) sub will start before 2018. Wouldn't that have been enough time for Brahmos to develop the smaller variant of Brahmos that it claims to have been working on for over a year now?

The SLCM variant of the Brahmos is designed to be carried in a modular launcher within the pressure hull of the submarine, which means the submarine would have to be lengthened by fitting another section.

According to DRDO, a modular Brahmos launcher fitted on a submarine will increase its 'offensive power' without compromising on its 'defensive power' as the torpedo tubes can be fully utilized for defense.

The DRDO plug for the missile needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. No! I will be blunt. The DRDO plug is nonsense!

Launching a cruise missile from a standard torpedo tube is the norm worldwide.

When a submarine launches a missile, it runs the risk of giving away its position to enemy UAV and aircraft. A vertically launched missile pinpoints the location of a sub a lot more than a torpedo launched missile.

Brahmos submarine launched variant fitted on a submarine.

A submarine launching a 5,000 km range strategic missiles from within safety of home waters is one thing, a submarine giving away its position through vertical launch of a tactical missile with a 390 km range is a completely different proposition. The submarine is likely to be in the battle area which is being monitored through aerial recconaissance.

The real reason why DRDO has developed a vertically launched submarine variant of the Brahmos is because the Brahmos will not fit into any torpedo tube.

Brahmos is 9m long, has a diameter of .7m and weighs 3.2 tons. It is significantly larger & heavier than the Nirbhay, which is reported to be 6m, but could be upto 7m long.

Fitting a Brahmos launcher on Project 75(I) submarines will mandate the addition of a section to the standard design of a sub, which will likely compromise to some extent its performance and stealth characteristics, besides being prohibitively expensive. You can be sure the submarine OEM is going to take full monetary advantage from the tweak.

The airborne variant of the Brahmos, Brahmos-A, which is currently under development, can be used by only one fighter in the IAF (Su-30MKI), that too after heavy modifications. The cumulative cost of these modifications would be in billions of dollars. As it is the Brahmos is a very expensive missile. Factoring in the cost of platform upgrade, one wonders what kind of a target would justify the use of a Brahmos, considering it's not a nuclear capable missile.

Development of Brahmos-A ALCM and Brahmos SLCM seem to defy logic. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

In this context please also read the link below:

Brahmos: The Irony about the Smaller Lighter Variant



Brahmos - A ALCM & Brahmos SLCM Variants: Some Urgent Questions

@Abingdonboy @sancho ur take??

I don't get this, they are saying the BrahMos 3 is years behind schedule. WTF? It was announced last year right?

And they said that the BrahMos 3 is meant to replace the BrahMos ALCM, but has it even been confirmed that the ALCM and Mark 3 are two different missiles? I thought they were the same.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I don't get this, they are saying the BrahMos 3 is years behind schedule. WTF? It was announced last year right?

And they said that the BrahMos 3 is meant to replace the BrahMos ALCM, but has it even been confirmed that the ALCM and Mark 3 are two different missiles? I thought they were the same.

It's not delayed, itis just yet, understandably so, to get the full attention of BHRAMOS AEROSPACE who are focused on the ALCM and SLCM projects right now.


+ the ALCM and Bhramos 3 are different. The ALCM is roughly the same size as the current Bhramos CMs. The Bhramos 3 will be a smaller and lighter ALCM able to be used on many of the IAF's and IN's fighters including the Rafale, MiG-29K, M2k (speculation) etc whilst the present-day ALCM version is only able to be carried by the MKI on the centerline ( the MKI will apparently be able to carry 3 Bhramos 3 at a time.).


+@arp2041 Vertically launching SLCMs does have certain advantages over their torpedo-launched contempories. The VL aspect allows the sub's torpedo tubes to be free to aid the defense of the ship, when a sub is launching torpedo-launched SLCMs the ship is effecvtivly defenseless.

 

[sancho]

Development of Brahmos-A ALCM and Brahmos SLCM seem to defy logic. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

I see it the other way around, since this is a very logical approach for a change. We have developed the basic Brahmos for IA and IN and since IAF lacked an air launched cruise missile so far, it is very logical to develop such a missile based on the available Brahmos missile. Same goes for the sub launched version, which is basically a tech demonstrator imo, since the only subs that might use is currently would be Arihant class SSBNs, for self defence reasons mainly until we get SSGNs.
Developing a smaller version that can be used in higher numbers and more plattforms is just a further development, so the next step. The problem is only, that this came more or less at the same time when the hypersonic Brahmos development started as well and since the hunt for the first hypersonic cruise missile is in the interest of Russia as well, this might have got importance than the smaller Brahmos version, which is only needed for India.

So going step by step imo is the right way to go, instead of directly going for something even more difficult from the start. When Brahmos light is developed, we already will have the integration to fighters available, just like the use from VLS, so all that would be new is the torpedo launch.

 

[jha]

If Sengupta is correct and LRCM is indeed in advanced stage, I just dont see a need for Brahmos-3. LRCM will be lighter than Brahmos and will be Air-Launched. Dont know why will we develop so many different missiles for same purposes.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

A good thoughtfull article. But the Brahmos being used in submarine for now in another question. The matter is India now have the required technology in place for an underwater launched cruise missile.
The vertical launcher module can be taken with a pinch of salt.
The brahmos once launched cannot be taken down by any known Missile defence systems. So i believe the advantages outweighs disadvantages.
I hope Arihant becomes operational within this year and hope it can test fire a missile or two of brahmos from its belly.

 

[sancho]

If Sengupta is correct and LRCM is indeed in advanced stage, I just dont see a need for Brahmos-3. LRCM will be lighter than Brahmos and will be Air-Launched. Dont know why will we develop so many different missiles for same purposes.

Who says they are for the same purposes? Also don't forget that missiles differ in their capabilities as well, be with different propulsions or navigation systems.
Brahmos was mainly developed as an anti ship missile with long range and that is hard to counter, Brahmos light will have the same main purpose, with the difference that it can be used from more plattforms of the IN. The land attack capability was added later and might have secondary importance only, especially for future SSGNs, or SSBNs that will get Nirbhay as well, for even longer range land attacks.

 

[IND151]

First test of the Brahmos submarine launched variant on March 20, 2013.


The Brahmos - A ALCM & Brahmos SLCM Variants mandate spending billions of dollars upgrading existing platforms and make them compatible. As it is, Brahmos is a very expensive missile.

It's unprecedented for a weapon system upgrade to require such heavy upgrades of delivery platforms.

Are the costs justified? Could the money have been better spent on downsizing and modifying the existing Brahmos for use from submarine torpedo tubes and medium sized fighters without the need to modify the platforms.

Take the example of the Brahmos SLCM variant that was successfully test fired today (March 20, 2013).

India doesn't have a sub that can use it. Neither is the missile compatible for use with the under construction Scorpene (Project 75) subs.

DRDO is plugging the missile for use on Project 75(I) subs, the tendering process for which has not started! It's unlikely construction of the first Project 75(I) sub will start before 2018. Wouldn't that have been enough time for Brahmos to develop the smaller variant of Brahmos that it claims to have been working on for over a year now?

The SLCM variant of the Brahmos is designed to be carried in a modular launcher within the pressure hull of the submarine, which means the submarine would have to be lengthened by fitting another section.

According to DRDO, a modular Brahmos launcher fitted on a submarine will increase its 'offensive power' without compromising on its 'defensive power' as the torpedo tubes can be fully utilized for defense.

The DRDO plug for the missile needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. No! I will be blunt. The DRDO plug is nonsense!

Launching a cruise missile from a standard torpedo tube is the norm worldwide.

When a submarine launches a missile, it runs the risk of giving away its position to enemy UAV and aircraft. A vertically launched missile pinpoints the location of a sub a lot more than a torpedo launched missile.

Brahmos submarine launched variant fitted on a submarine.

A submarine launching a 5,000 km range strategic missiles from within safety of home waters is one thing, a submarine giving away its position through vertical launch of a tactical missile with a 390 km range is a completely different proposition. The submarine is likely to be in the battle area which is being monitored through aerial recconaissance.

The real reason why DRDO has developed a vertically launched submarine variant of the Brahmos is because the Brahmos will not fit into any torpedo tube.

Brahmos is 9m long, has a diameter of .7m and weighs 3.2 tons. It is significantly larger & heavier than the Nirbhay, which is reported to be 6m, but could be upto 7m long.

Fitting a Brahmos launcher on Project 75(I) submarines will mandate the addition of a section to the standard design of a sub, which will likely compromise to some extent its performance and stealth characteristics, besides being prohibitively expensive. You can be sure the submarine OEM is going to take full monetary advantage from the tweak.

The airborne variant of the Brahmos, Brahmos-A, which is currently under development, can be used by only one fighter in the IAF (Su-30MKI), that too after heavy modifications. The cumulative cost of these modifications would be in billions of dollars. As it is the Brahmos is a very expensive missile. Factoring in the cost of platform upgrade, one wonders what kind of a target would justify the use of a Brahmos, considering it's not a nuclear capable missile.

Development of Brahmos-A ALCM and Brahmos SLCM seem to defy logic. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

In this context please also read the link below:

Brahmos: The Irony about the Smaller Lighter Variant



Brahmos - A ALCM & Brahmos SLCM Variants: Some Urgent Questions

@Abingdonboy @sancho ur take??

developing lighter version of Brahmos SLCM (like 1.5 ton Brashmos ALCM which is in news) is good option, but such version will offer limited punch, as it will have less payload and less kinetic speed(even if speed is same)

 

[sancho]

developing lighter version of Brahmos SLCM (like 1.5 ton Brashmos ALCM which is in news) is good option, but such version will offer limited punch, as it will have less payload and less kinetic speed(even if speed is same)

That needs to be seen, because it's not just a smaller version of the current one, but will get a newly developed propulsion and other parts as well. This missile will be more in the line of Club S missiles wrt weight, size and "punch", but with similar capabilities of the current Brahmos. The Hypersonic Brahmos will be a whole new issue again, but this step by step approach should be taken as a base for all Indian developments

Brahmos 1 - available Russian parts taken for fast development and induction
Brahmos light - re-design of the baseline missile, with newly developed parts and higher Indian content
Hypersonic Brahmos - NG joint development according to the needs of both countries

A steady learning and development curve, similar to what we see in the helicopter field too.

 

[IND151]

That needs to be seen, because it's not just a smaller version of the current one, but will get a newly developed propulsion and other parts as well. This missile will be more in the line of Club S missiles wrt weight, size and "punch", but with similar capabilities of the current Brahmos. The Hypersonic Brahmos will be a whole new issue again, but this step by step approach should be taken as a base for all Indian developments

Brahmos 1 - available Russian parts taken for fast development and induction
Brahmos light - re-design of the baseline missile, with newly developed parts and higher Indian content
Hypersonic Brahmos - NG joint development according to the needs of both countries

A steady learning and development curve, similar to what we see in the helicopter field too.

how it is possible?

smaller size will restrict payload, fuel capacity and less weight will lead to less kinetic energy on impact

How can a lighter Brahmos weighing nearly 1.5 ton (assumed as 1.5 ton Brahmos ALCM is being considered) can have same punch as 3 ton standard Brahmos?
@sancho

 

[sancho]

how it is possible?

smaller size will restrict payload, fuel capacity and less weight will lead to less kinetic energy on impact

How can a lighter Brahmos weighing nearly 1.5 ton (assumed as 1.5 ton Brahmos ALCM is being considered) can have same punch as 3 ton standard Brahmos?
@sancho

Depends on the speed the new propulsion might provide, because that will result in the kinetic energy the missile will have at the end. But as I said, that version is more comparable tot Club S missiles wrt size and warheads and plattforms, while the design and propulsion will be aimed on Brahmos again.

 

[Ceylal]

Great test for India that the Algerian army is following wth great interest.! Again Kudos for Indian Navy!