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Book Review: An Army With A Country Pakistan at the Crossroads

There is some truth to that satatement. As the writer says same could be said of Germany/Prussia, Turkey and until recently Chile. The PA is generic to Pakistan's existance and as a organization precedes the present political entity. Without PA Pakistan would not have survived past 1950. Today it like always provides the backbone to the state. It is the one reason why all those fortune tellers who through the decades kept saying Pak is going collapse were and will be proved wrong.

All I can do is salute it. Without it next time I land at Islamabad it will resemble Somalia. Thank you Britain.

@Blue Marlin @waz
 
I dont believe that any ine in his right state of mind will spend 60 usd to read this bullshit
 
There is some truth to that satatement. As the writer says same could be said of Germany/Prussia, Turkey and until recently Chile. The PA is generic to Pakistan's existance and as a organization precedes the present political entity. Without PA Pakistan would not have survived past 1950. Today it like always provides the backbone to the state. It is the one reason why all those fortune tellers who through the decades kept saying Pak is going collapse were and will be proved wrong.

All I can do is salute it. Without it next time I land at Islamabad it will resemble Somalia. Thank you Britain.

@Blue Marlin @waz
put it this way if the army or the armed forces were running the country through a puppet government the country would have a gdp of at least $900 billion. the army would take part in shutting down other parties and ensuring they rue the country. mushy did that and look at the economic success he had. more than the current guy. some countrys were simply not made to be democratic pakistan being one of them. where people see an oppertuniy for mischeif(curruption) they will do it.an authoritairan government will do wonders in pakistan. you need to take a lesson from russia and turkey. heck maybe china too. all of the curent governments are weak and care more bout them selfs than the country their rule. even current parites are like this. what pakistan needs ais a strong party leader.
 
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I do not blindly follow things. I have gone through pakistani literature and opinion makers who claim taliban to be their strategic asset and afghanistan as their strategic depth. Please do not harp the ispr line here.


I thought u were not from pakistan. But still u r harping the exact ispr line. It is surprising and gives a perception of the kind of research u did about the subject.



Do u know how many lives were lost by indians in fighting pak sponsored terrorists of afghans lost fighting pakistan sponsored talis.
Do look at the context here. Why was taliban created, what use did the jihadis serve.
The jihadis turned on pak only post 2006 or so. But during 2001-08? What happened? Hosting OBL in abbotabad, hosting mullah mansour.
Are u rly that naive? U r too naive to not be a pakistani.
To Sum Up Your Whole Article
Hosting This One That one
I m ISPR agent :D =)) What the Heck
And as i Said eariler This Region is Different Unless You have Been To Pakistan and have Seen How Much Afgans are integrated in Pakistan You wont Be able To understand What makes the Movement of People So easy on both Sides
And Area is So Vast and if you Go a decade back there was Not even Proper Check and Go system Was Working on both Sides of Border Heck When Russians Were the Carpet Bombing Afghans That Area was Still wasn't secured things are changing Now

as for Strategic depth as i think thats my 4 5 time repeating as India Supported Mukthi Bhani Pakistan Supported Taliban So No one is So innocent in this Game , Every Country will Try to achieve Some Goals Heros of One or Evils of others
These Same people were compered to The Fore fathers of US , Things are Different

As Pakistan is Fighting the War Not Just For Pakistan But For the Future of So many countries , it includes India , Iran , Pakistan , Afghanistan

People Can and Will Keep playing Blame Game for there benefits as Open Your eyes and read my first post again
To Solve This Problem ( Terrorist is a menance Which needs to be destroyer But More hatred Will just Increase it )
Pakistan , Iran , China , India being at the Core of this Problem Can Help each other To Stop all this these Countries have direct access to Afghanistan , Americans Cant Cure the Problem because they are a temporary diagnose ,
To Cut The Root of this Problem all countries need to Join hand to hand and Sort out there Problems on equal basics
by Providing There Citizens basic necessities of life
Food , Work , Education , Law , Shelter
if all these Countries Join there hands Together instead of Spending Hundreds of billions on War This Region Can be changed

i m a Muslim but Muslim Unity is Just a myth or dream of past which Wont Help any one
People Need to understand People , and Respect other for Being Humans not hating them for being hindu , muslim , jew, christian or any other religion the follow or what color they have, By helping others

Regional Countries need to Develop Better relations with Each other and we already have a Good Example European Union yes these countries had Problem with each other but they United Together for the betterment of its People
But if you See asia all the countries are just investing to harm other country
 
mushy did that and look at the economic success he had. more than the current guy. some countrys were simply not made to be democratic pakistan being one of them.

If this is indeed the truth about Pakistan, it's extremely sad.
I really wish the civil society takes back the power and there are checks and balances developed to ensure the "representatives" work for the welfare for Pakistan.
 
BOOKSHELF | By Isaac Chotiner

An Army With A Country

Pakistan at the Crossroads

Edited by Christophe Jaffrelot

(Columbia, 346 pages, $60)

The famous quote about Prussia—that it was not a country with an army but an army with a country—has been used to describe any number of states. Turkey and Argentina, two countries where the military has taken an oh-so-generous role in governing, leap to mind.

Pakistan has a distinct version of this familiar problem. It has a military that rotates between exerting direct control via coups (1958, 1977 and 1999) and indirect control through its far-reaching influence over domestic and especially foreign policy. It is this indirect control that prevails in Pakistan today, notwithstanding the presence of a democratically elected legislature and prime minister.

Yet despite the military’s role in everything from crushing political dissent to dominating various sectors of the economy, Pakistan is a country with an army that is, well, not very effective. When was the last time that the Pakistani armed forces were admired for anything tangible? The military has lost every war it has ever fought; it has been humiliated time and again by its archenemy, India; and it was even responsible for the catastrophe of 1971, when Pakistan lost more than half its population after the country’s eastern wing seceded and became Bangladesh amid horrific war crimes committed by those same armed forces. The real question is thus how the military has attained primacy in a country where it has been responsible for one disaster after another. That is the tacit question underlying “Pakistan at the Crossroads,” a thorough and intelligent collection of essays on modern-day Pakistan edited by Christophe Jaffrelot.

Although the contributors touch on everything from Pakistan- China relations to the current functioning (such as it is) of the country’s electoral system, the overarching theme running through the book is the way in which military rule has inserted itself into almost every aspect of Pakistan’s existence.

The country was formed in 1947 when the British Indian, Muslim-majority states of Punjab and Bengal were partitioned amid inter-communal violence. The new, Muslim country called Pakistan (meaning “land of the pure” in Urdu) was therefore neither ethnically nor geographically united, with India sitting inconveniently between the country’s two wings. The only other Muslim-majority state in British India, Kashmir, became a source of endless warfare between India and Pakistan. When Kashmir’s (unelected) ruler opted for India after partition, war broke out; today India rules Kashmir with a blatant disregard for human rights.

As Aqil Shah—himself the author of an excellent recent book on Pakistan’s military—writes in his superb chapter on the armed forces, the fight over Kashmir, coupled with Pakistan’s fear of majority-Hindu India, “spurred the ‘militarization’ of the Pakistani state in the early years. . . . As state building and survival became synonymous with the ‘war effort,’ the civilian leadership diverted scarce resources from development to defense and abdicated its responsibility of oversight over the military, thereby allowing the generals a virtual free hand over internal organizational affairs and national security management.” A decade later, in 1958, the military launched its first formal coup, overthrowing a flailing civilian government.

Much of this collection covers the most recent decade of Pakistani history, with less attention paid to the lost wars against India (1947-48 and 1965); the military-led genocide that resulted in the creation of Bangladesh and another lost war against India (1971); and the rise of Zia ul-Haq, an autocrat who overthrew an elected government in 1977 and ruled for over a decade.

After the most recent military dictator, Pervez Musharraf, was forced out in 2008, a civilian government survived its first full five-year term and handover of power, in this case to the country’s current prime minister, Nawaz Sharif. But Mr. Sharif must reckon with a military that still controls all major decision-making, as well as with Imran Khan, the demagogic cricket star who is both a stalking horse for the armed forces and the most popular man in the country.

Mohammad Waseem, whose chapter on political parties ably lays out this recent history, doesn’t address exactly why they have failed to establish themselves as the supreme actors in Pakistani politics. But Mr. Jaffrelot, in his introduction, does have a go at it, and his thesis is arresting: The failure of civilian supremacy is in part a reflection of the willingness of civilians to be co-opted by the military. “Dictators all have had to liberalize their regime after some time and civilians never asked for all the power,” he writes.

It’s true that the military’s popularity has made it difficult for civilians to demand their fair share of control. But several of the dictators written about, such as Yahya Khan and Zia, either didn’t liberalize or did so half-heartedly. Moreover, civilians have never asked for total control because doing so would be futile and dangerous, given the control the military has always exerted over the country.

Still, Mr. Jaffrelot’s conclusion seems undeniably correct: “The return to normalcy of Pakistan domestically implies a normalization of its relations with both its neighbors, India and Afghanistan.” The problem is that the military has long prevented any normalization of relations with India and has long viewed the Taliban (which it helped install in Afghanistan) as a helpful ally, despite the “blowback” this has caused in Pakistan itself: Terrorist groups routinely attack civilians—often religious minorities—and even their onetime military patrons. And, as Avinash Paliwal points out in his dispiriting chapter on Afghanistan-Pakistan relations, Afghanistan’s understandable anger at Pakistani meddling may lead to an increased use of proxies by the former against the latter as a sort of tit-for-tat. It’s hard to see a positive result for the people of either country.

For this reason, the title of Mr. Jaffrelot’s fine volume is misleading. Despite the military’s willingness to belatedly go after (some of) the extremist groups it has long nurtured for its own ends, its raison d’etre remains its own power, and it’s difficult to imagine its leaders allowing for stability in Afghanistan or closer ties with India. Pakistan is less at a “crossroads” than it is humming along the same path it’s been on for decades, albeit with slight adjustments of speed.

Mr. Chotiner is a contributing writer for Slate.

The failure of civil rule in Pakistan, Jaffrelot argues, is a reflection of the willingness of civilians to be dominated by the military.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/an-army-with-a-country-1471208655


If you read the interview, you will get an idea of relations between Army and Civilian Government.

clear you concepts here.
https://defence.pk/threads/powerplay-interview-of-lt-gen-r-tariq-khan-fmr-corps-cmd-mangla.442943/

This comes from a recently retired General.
 
To Sum Up Your Whole Article
Hosting This One That one
I m ISPR agent :D =)) What the Heck
And as i Said eariler This Region is Different Unless You have Been To Pakistan and have Seen How Much Afgans are integrated in Pakistan You wont Be able To understand What makes the Movement of People So easy on both Sides
And Area is So Vast and if you Go a decade back there was Not even Proper Check and Go system Was Working on both Sides of Border Heck When Russians Were the Carpet Bombing Afghans That Area was Still wasn't secured things are changing Now

as for Strategic depth as i think thats my 4 5 time repeating as India Supported Mukthi Bhani Pakistan Supported Taliban So No one is So innocent in this Game , Every Country will Try to achieve Some Goals Heros of One or Evils of others
These Same people were compered to The Fore fathers of US , Things are Different

As Pakistan is Fighting the War Not Just For Pakistan But For the Future of So many countries , it includes India , Iran , Pakistan , Afghanistan

People Can and Will Keep playing Blame Game for there benefits as Open Your eyes and read my first post again
To Solve This Problem ( Terrorist is a menance Which needs to be destroyer But More hatred Will just Increase it )
Pakistan , Iran , China , India being at the Core of this Problem Can Help each other To Stop all this these Countries have direct access to Afghanistan , Americans Cant Cure the Problem because they are a temporary diagnose ,
To Cut The Root of this Problem all countries need to Join hand to hand and Sort out there Problems on equal basics
by Providing There Citizens basic necessities of life
Food , Work , Education , Law , Shelter
if all these Countries Join there hands Together instead of Spending Hundreds of billions on War This Region Can be changed

i m a Muslim but Muslim Unity is Just a myth or dream of past which Wont Help any one
People Need to understand People , and Respect other for Being Humans not hating them for being hindu , muslim , jew, christian or any other religion the follow or what color they have, By helping others

Regional Countries need to Develop Better relations with Each other and we already have a Good Example European Union yes these countries had Problem with each other but they United Together for the betterment of its People
But if you See asia all the countries are just investing to harm other country

If u r not a pakistani, you must know some facts and take them into perspective.

1. Pakistan has used and will keep using terrorists as a tool of state policy. They themselves have claimed it. Sartaj aziz even said they will not go against terrorists that do not harm them.
People like hafeez saeed roam around in pakistan with impunity and influence decision making.

2. You reference to india sponsoring mukti bahini is absolutely flawed.
Yes we created it, yes we sponsored it but do look into the context. It was not strategic depth or our ill intentions otherwise we would have annexed bangladesh.
Please look into the atrocities commited by pakistani forces on the bengali population. Muslims slaughtering muslims and then hindus sacrificing their lives to liberate bangladehs.

3. India wants an integrated south asia like eu. It is pakistan which has thrown the wrench in almost always. Recently there was an agreement related to free movement of motor vehicles and pakistan stalled it. India has now excluded pakistan and is intergrating south asia bilaterally. Read about BBIN.

4. The core problem is that pakistan tries to seek parity, parity with india in every stage. This has led it to use pressure tactics like terrorist as a bargaining chip with india as well as us and i think against china as well, like the uighur situation.
Pakistan is able to blackmail every country and get away with it. But hopefully countries will become dissilusioned.

And finally, a country with an army aso disproportionately large for its size, or an army with a country..... will not be stable every, the army wants a continous turmoil so the civilians can be kept weaker. They have a vested interest in hostilities, which keeps them relevent.
 
BOOKSHELF | By Isaac Chotiner

An Army With A Country

Pakistan at the Crossroads

Edited by Christophe Jaffrelot


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If u r not a pakistani, you must know some facts and take them into perspective.

1. Pakistan has used and will keep using terrorists as a tool of state policy. They themselves have claimed it. Sartaj aziz even said they will not go against terrorists that do not harm them.
People like hafeez saeed roam around in pakistan with impunity and influence decision making.

2. You reference to india sponsoring mukti bahini is absolutely flawed.
Yes we created it, yes we sponsored it but do look into the context. It was not strategic depth or our ill intentions otherwise we would have annexed bangladesh.
Please look into the atrocities commited by pakistani forces on the bengali population. Muslims slaughtering muslims and then hindus sacrificing their lives to liberate bangladehs.

3. India wants an integrated south asia like eu. It is pakistan which has thrown the wrench in almost always. Recently there was an agreement related to free movement of motor vehicles and pakistan stalled it. India has now excluded pakistan and is intergrating south asia bilaterally. Read about BBIN.

4. The core problem is that pakistan tries to seek parity, parity with india in every stage. This has led it to use pressure tactics like terrorist as a bargaining chip with india as well as us and i think against china as well, like the uighur situation.
Pakistan is able to blackmail every country and get away with it. But hopefully countries will become dissilusioned.

And finally, a country with an army aso disproportionately large for its size, or an army with a country..... will not be stable every, the army wants a continous turmoil so the civilians can be kept weaker. They have a vested interest in hostilities, which keeps them relevent.
1 So Has India , Raw Funded , Supported , LTTE , Mukhti Bhani , Sikkim List Goes on And On
i dont No much About hafeez Saeed so i wont comment About Him , There are some nut jobs in every Country Do you See India arresting all those nuts Jobs who threat Pakistan ? No
Sartaj Aziz said that Because Most of Them are in Afghanistan , TTP is a terrorist group and Pakistan is going after TTP In Pakistan but they Cant Go after and fight it in Afghanistan
2 Reference Flawed Buddy Do you Even Know what is strategic Depth ?
What Did india into Bangladesh , They Captured and created a Small India Dependent Country I think This Sums of Pretty Much
3 India wants To integrate ? Thats Why india has Problem with all small countries be it , Nepal , Bangladesh , Pakistan , Sri lanka List goes on buddy . No india wants to represent the Boss of South Asia ,
Free Movement ? When Two Countries are hell bent on Destroying each other There is major Land Problem , Majority of Population hate each other Because of attitude of both countries i dont think this steps Can work
4 You need to Face The Truth buddy Pakistan has its Own Problem as India has its own Problem
if you go 70 years ago These People were one its Not That Simple , Pakistan blackmailing every country and getting away with it I didn't knew Pakistan was that Power full that it can blackmail any country
Pakistan army large in its Size ? in sense That Goes for India too it Goes for all the country
have you Seen The land mass of Pakistan , the Key Points ,and Rivals Standing army it is facing

To Sum it Up all For you
You Like Majority Indian Think Pakistan is the Evil
and Mighty India is just a simple innocent baby cow in this Evil world of monsters
No matter what Pakistan Do its some of it is always bad so Buddy
i have a believe that You cant Win against idiots in argument its better To Walk Away and Save Your time for something Positive
 
1) name any country whose military don't have influence over foreign policy and security issues,media.
2) pakistan army lost only 71 war. in kashmir war they took half of kashmir and the 65 war was a victory as a defenders from indian aggression on international border.
3) no army has as much popularity in its country as pakistan army does. even the staunch members of political parties supports army when they need it.
4) pakistan faces an enemy far bigger than its size, an unstable western front and nuclear weapons which west thinks of as an islamic bomb which creates an extra threat. under such circumstances its a blessing to have an army with that much influence.
5) this book is one of those books and articles which came out when pakistan was under propaganda war from west and india on its nuclear weapons and support to taliban in afghanistan.
 
1 So Has India , Raw Funded , Supported , LTTE , Mukhti Bhani , Sikkim List Goes on And On
i dont No much About hafeez Saeed so i wont comment About Him , There are some nut jobs in every Country Do you See India arresting all those nuts Jobs who threat Pakistan ? No
Sartaj Aziz said that Because Most of Them are in Afghanistan , TTP is a terrorist group and Pakistan is going after TTP In Pakistan but they Cant Go after and fight it in Afghanistan
2 Reference Flawed Buddy Do you Even Know what is strategic Depth ?
What Did india into Bangladesh , They Captured and created a Small India Dependent Country I think This Sums of Pretty Much
3 India wants To integrate ? Thats Why india has Problem with all small countries be it , Nepal , Bangladesh , Pakistan , Sri lanka List goes on buddy . No india wants to represent the Boss of South Asia ,
Free Movement ? When Two Countries are hell bent on Destroying each other There is major Land Problem , Majority of Population hate each other Because of attitude of both countries i dont think this steps Can work
4 You need to Face The Truth buddy Pakistan has its Own Problem as India has its own Problem
if you go 70 years ago These People were one its Not That Simple , Pakistan blackmailing every country and getting away with it I didn't knew Pakistan was that Power full that it can blackmail any country
Pakistan army large in its Size ? in sense That Goes for India too it Goes for all the country
have you Seen The land mass of Pakistan , the Key Points ,and Rivals Standing army it is facing

To Sum it Up all For you
You Like Majority Indian Think Pakistan is the Evil
and Mighty India is just a simple innocent baby cow in this Evil world of monsters
No matter what Pakistan Do its some of it is always bad so Buddy
i have a believe that You cant Win against idiots in argument its better To Walk Away and Save Your time for something Positive
Thank you for your advice at the end :sarcastic:

Well, the indian groups have just threatened pakistan and have nothing more than sticks with themselves. Cant say that for the other side.
American diplomates have commented that pakistan comes to the negotiating table with a gun to its head.

Also india does not want to occupy or break up pakistan. It is in indias interest to have a stable and sane neighbour at its border. We dont wanna deal with refugees at all.

There are terrorist training camps active in p0k and punjab area and are not a hidden fact.
A man convicted in india for terrorism and released after a plane was hijacked, he roams free in pakistan and has one of the biggest militant outfits in bahwalpur of pakistan. He has even threatened pakistan iteslf but pakistan has not taken any action. Against him.
And if you think mukti bahini is a terrorist organisation, i pity u. Cant really say much on that.

And yes foreign policy is for nationak interest. But pakistan's foreign policy has lead it to one disaster after another and has cost more lives than it intended to save. The terrorists they nurtured to strike india and afghanistan and turning on them and killing their people.

And we dont think the avg pakistani is evil. He is not, but he has been mislead by the mullah military nexus. Their history has been manipulated, they have been brainwashed into blowing themselves up based on distorted history. Who sends their own citizens to die?
India never sent any of its citizens to fight wars, they just exploited the fault line of the enemies.
Pakistan on the other hand, sent its own citizens to fight other's wars. So u can imagine
 
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