Boeing Expands India Alliance

[Capt.Popeye]

That actually is an example why we do need closer relations to the US, since there was no alternative, before the US boxed us to an official nuclear power status, even against the will of other NATO partners. Neither Russia, nor UK or France could have done that and all the countries that now wants to deal with us, do it because they are allied with the US (Canada, Australia, Japan...).
The same can be seen wrt to IN and the limited option they have, if we keep the US arms and techs out. No CATOBAR carriers, limited capable Russian MPAs, no capable AWACS, limited options for ASW..., so we don't gain by keeping them away from us, but by letting them get closer according to our conditions. It's a give and take, we have a lot to give and they have a lot to offer, we now need to find compromises wrt the conditions and that's where it lacks so far.

Not in the least. When we were poorer and weaker; we did not agree to compromise on our ideas. There is even lesser incentive to do so now. Getting hold of these "Biggest and Best Boys Toys" is not critical to our existence. We are under no threat of being swamped by anybody. Hence no changes seem to be in the offing.
Where the "123 Agreement" was concerned; who did the major climb-down and who was the major beneficiary?

So:

Far from limiting our options; we are in fact setting up our own "red-lines". We will neither beg nor demand anything from them; simply because we do not need to. We will talk to them; if they listen to our point of view-then great!

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/246647-boeing-expands-india-alliance.html#ixzz2QqPk53Zs

Inspite of all that you claim; we have got the Poseidons, Apaches, Chinooks, Herks and C-17s from the American. For the AWACs; we have already got viable alternatives. India is still not fishing for Sentry's or Wedgetails. The Hawkeye has been on offer; it is the IN that has NOT frozen their decision on that. About CATOBAR, the IN desires it; but it will not be be-all/end-all of their future Carrier aspirations.
Because the GoI and IN do not have global ambitions. They are concentrating on the Sea Area:Hormuz-Bab el Mandeb-Seychelles-W Sumatera-Malacca Straits. If 'push comes to shove'; they will make do with STOBAR carriers. Neither is the IN salivating over the prospects of owning Ospreys; it has not even entered their wish-list.
And you can be pretty sure that the IN is not considering the F-35!

So where is the catch? There is none. Just watch; no changes seem visible.

 

[sancho]

Where the "123 Agreement" was concerned; who did the major climb-down and who was the major beneficiary?

Obviously they, for good reasons (with China in mind), but the fact remains, we wouldn't get there without US approval, so there was no alternative for us either.

Inspite of all that you claim; we have got the Poseidons, Apaches, Chinooks, Herks and C-17s from the American.

Not inspite, but because of the closer relations that led to the 123 pact we got all this now! Before, we didn't even get normal F16s, let alone F16INs or F35s, which again shows that we would limit ourselfs. Instead we need to have all options on the table and choose the best according to our needs, that's the biggest advantage that we have today, since there is hardly any other country in the world, with such a variety of access to foreign arms and techs.

About CATOBAR, the IN desires it; but it will not be be-all/end-all of their future Carrier aspirations.
Because the GoI and IN do not have global ambitions. They are concentrating on the Sea Area:Hormuz-Bab el Mandeb-Seychelles-W Sumatera-Malacca Straits. If 'push comes to shove'; they will make do with STOBAR carriers. Neither is the IN salivating over the prospects of owning Ospreys; it has not even entered their wish-list.

CATOBAR design has nothing to do with operating globally, but with using carry aircrafts as effective as possible! STOBAR carrier fighters can operate with much less payload only than STOBAR carriers, they are limited to VTOL AEW options, of which we got the least capable one as of now and that's why IN wants catapults since years and are pushing now even for the latest EMALS system. They know the benefits and the fact that they want it although they had pretty bad experience with US arms in the past, shows how important it is to keep this option open, or to convince them to compromise more to our needs.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Obviously they, for good reasons (with China in mind), but the fact remains, we wouldn't get there without US approval, so there was no alternative for us either.

Not inspite, but because of the closer relations that led to the 123 pact we got all this now! Before, we didn't even get normal F16s, let alone F16INs or F35s, which again shows that we would limit ourselfs. Instead we need to have all options on the table and choose the best according to our needs, that's the biggest advantage that we have today, since there is hardly any other country in the world, with such a variety of access to foreign arms and techs.


CATOBAR design has nothing to do with operating globally, but with using carry aircrafts as effective as possible! STOBAR carrier fighters can operate with much less payload only than STOBAR carriers, they are limited to VTOL AEW options, of which we got the least capable one as of now and that's why IN wants catapults since years and are pushing now even for the latest EMALS system. They know the benefits and the fact that they want it although they had pretty bad experience with US arms in the past, shows how important it is to keep this option open, or to convince them to compromise more to our needs.

Inspite of your desires; fervent or otherwise, I just spelt out the reality of what is happening or what is likely to happen.
And you did'nt really answer my "123 question" !
Nothing is likely to change and for precisely the reasons that I have enumerated above. Enough evidence of that is already there. CISMOA etc etc and yet the world has not come to an end.
American investment and involvement in India will still continue. More American Aerospace companies will set up shop in India. That process will continue anyway. However Americans will remain locked out of NP contracts till they factor the Nuclear Liability requirements that India wants.

 

[sancho]

Inspite of your desires; fervent or otherwise, I just spelt out the reality of what is happening or what is likely to happen.

My desire is the best for India and Indian forces, that's why I don't simply deny US techs and capabilities (although I am considered as a US hater). If they suit our requirements and we can live with certain restrictions (remember, give and take) they add a good punch for us. That's why the C130Js will be a great addition for us to support our special forces, something that hardly any other country could offer us, same goes for C17s or P8Is. But so far we denied the big ticket deals like MMRCA, or LUH to them, since they deny critical techs. So when we will find more compromises in future, we might get over that as well and both sides can benefit even more.

And you did'nt really answer my "123 question" !

Who benefits more? As I said, obviously we, because we get access to crucial supplies for nuclear reactors, but we were disscussing about the limitations we have without the US, so that example of you proves you actualy wrong.

American investment and involvement in India will still continue. More American Aerospace companies will set up shop in India. That process will continue anyway.

Of course, but now ask yourself in return, who benefits more? We that we don't buy Black Hawks, S92 or F18SHs, or the US, that can sell these aircrafts at lower costs, by benefitting from our low production costs?
Access to our defence market, as well es to our production capabilities in India were also reasons why the US wanted closer relation to India, but if we want to benefit more of these relations and not only by adding some arms in low numbers here and there, we need to find solutions and compromises.

Btw, how is CISMOA an evidence that nothing has changed? They haved reduced the restrictions in this case lower than to some of their closes allies. So once again, you are proving yourself wrong and showing that there is a way, but it needs time and negotiations.