Boeing-777 was downed by Ukrainian MiG-29 flown by Polish Pilot, Romanian expert says

[Penguin]

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his articles Réseau International | Valentin Vasilescu Réseau International
his outlet Réseau International (english) | Reflexion & reinformation website

"Ainsi, les responsables russes ont prouvé l’existence d’un avion de combat ukrainien qui aurait intercepté le Malaysia Airlines, trois minutes avant l’accident, estimant la distance qui le séparait de la Malaysia Airlines à 3-5 km."
Le vol MH-17 abattu par un avion de chasse ukrainien ? | Réseau International (with question mark)

 

[Penguin]

"If the minimum separation technique for the radar of civil aviation between planes is a range of 11 km, we can assume that the Russian military radars are more efficient, with a similar American, 4 km minimum. When the distance between two aircraft is less than 4 km, the two signals merge on the radar screen. Yet the Russians claim that, according to its speed, the aircraft Ukrainian fighter has exceeded the threshold of 4 km, continuing its approach to flying MH-17 to enter the ZAP (Zone possible attack) for artillery weapons he has on board."

"How far the plane Ukrainian fighter has he approached the flight MH-17? Before aim and open fire on the flight deck, a length of 6 m section, the B-777, which has a length of 64.8 m, is to enter into a whole line sight of a fighter pilot. As the best way to hit the cockpit was an approach almost perpendicular to the direction of flight of MH-17, the pilot of the fighter jet was in the right conditions to superimpose the focus of its weapons on the firing point from the distance of 900 m from B -777. If the approach speed was about 280-300 m / s, the repetition of the attack is impossible, the fighter pilot had 3-4 seconds to all these maneuvers, since it must be released from the attack at a distance of 150m. This implies an automatic result of dozens of hours of training in simulators and flight conditions similar to those when the flight MH-17 was shot down conditions."

The author Valentin Vasilescu states Ukrainian military pilots, fly on average less than 40 hours / year and do not have the skills needed for close air combat (dual) enabling them to shoot down Flight MH-17... He notes Polish military pilots do have those skills. And that is where he leaves is. No explanation of why or how Polish military pilots would get involved in this. Nor any proof of it.

 

[bobo6661]

"How far the plane Ukrainian fighter has he approached the flight MH-17? Before aim and open fire on the flight deck, a length of 6 m section, the B-777, which has a length of 64.8 m, is to enter into a whole line sight of a fighter pilot. As the best way to hit the cockpit was an approach almost perpendicular to the direction of flight of MH-17, the pilot of the fighter jet was in the right conditions to superimpose the focus of its weapons on the firing point from the distance of 900 m from B -777. If the approach speed was about 280-300 m / s, the repetition of the attack is impossible, the fighter pilot had 3-4 seconds to all these maneuvers, since it must be released from the attack at a distance of 150m. This implies an automatic result of dozens of hours of training in simulators and flight conditions similar to those when the flight MH-17 was shot down conditions."

and how about airborne collision avoidance system there should be some traces in black boxes if it come so close

 

[Penguin]

Wow. The level of your ignorance runs deep. In flight recorders as in the recordings between kiev towers and pilot before the plane was shot down by the ukrainian fighter jet. They unkraine interior ministry confiscated them and never released them. Where are they? Why havent they been released. Lol. Ill wait for your pitiful excuse. I need something to laugh at today.


Like i said. You only want to believe what your nato masters tell you. Thats okay. You can stick to that story. The rest of the world who has a functioning brain. Well, we already know what happened.

Again you resort to personal attack. Which is against forum policy.
And FYI ...

A flight recorder is an electronic recording device placed in an aircraft for the purpose of facilitating the investigation of aviation accidents and incidents. Commonly referred to as a black box, there are two common types of flight recorder, the flight data recorder (FDR) and the cockpit voice recorder (CVR). In some cases, the two recorders may be combined in a single unit.
...
A flight data recorder (FDR) (also ADR, for accident data recorder) is an electronic device employed to record any instructions sent to any electronic systems on an aircraft. It is a device used to record specific aircraft performance parameters. Another kind of flight recorder is the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), which records conversation in the cockpit, radio communications between the cockpit crew and others (including conversation with air traffic control personnel), as well as ambient sounds.
...
physical possession of the flight recorder device is necessary to help investigate the cause of an aircraft incident

Flight recorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AGAIN:

On 18 July, it was reported that the flight recorders had been recovered by separatists.[107] On the same day, the head of Donetsk Regional State Administration, Kostiantyn Batozky, stated that both flight recorders had been found.[108]
On 21 July, Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said that he had been told by Alexander Borodai, leader of the Donetsk People's Republic, that the black boxes would be handed over to Malaysian authorities.[109][110] Later that day, the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder were handed over to Malaysian officials in Donetsk by rebels. The black boxes were examined at a facility operated by the UK AAIB.[111] On 23 July it was reported that the CVR was damaged but there was no evidence that it had been tampered with; it was also reported that valid data had been downloaded.[112][113]

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Malaysia Airlines MH17 black boxes reportedly recovered, Russia denies it will take them from rebels | National PostUkrainian rescuers find two black boxes at crash site, but their location is secret – Donetsk authorities
'Valid Data' Downloaded From MH17 Black Box
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm/2014_07_24_PB_flight_data_recorder_downloaded_ENG.pdf

 

[invinciblesgunner]

These are the facts. The ukrainian military has the PROVEN military capability to bring that plane down. They have both mig29 and buk. This is a proven fact. Not speculation or hearsay. Secondly. The ukrainian military has been targeting civilians since the beginning of this war. This is also a fact. That means their leadership doesnt care about human lives. This is conjecture. But with thousands of dead civilians. Its obvious.

The Donbass defenders on the otherhand have neither migs nor buks nor the necessary expert teams to man them. Nor the radars to effectively bring down a plane at 11000 meters in the air. This is also a fact unless shown otherwise by proof. Secondly, the Donbass defenders have NEVER targeted or killed civilians. How could they, their own families are the civilians.

Lastly. Where are the flight recorders? Why werent they released? Why are they being kept secret? If youre too stupid to figure out the answer yourself, you deserve to remain oblivious. And just look. After Russia released the radar info about the ukie jet shadowing the passenger plane. America nato and ukraine all became instantly silent and all the nato news stations just forgot about the plane.

And a last piece of food for thought, not for you but for a thinking human. Why was a mig29 just a few kilometers away from and following that plane on that day and why were american satelites positioned exactly on the spot of the plane downing. And why hasnt the US released their sat data?

Anyway. Its nice you want to continue to put doubt onto this subject but intelligent thinking individuals can see right through this farce.

Sometimes i ask myself. Are people really this stupid or are they just pretending for a paycheck. I dont think youre doing this for a pay check.

It seems like you suffer from the small man syndrome. Do you always get personal when you argue?

 

[notgoodenough]

Lol. I think you are too stupid to see the irony in your statement.

So answer the question. Where are the recording from flight control and the cockpit? Why were they confiscated and made secret? What are they hiding? If youre not smart enough to ask these questions yourself then you are either to dumb to take seriously or you are purposely beating around the bush. Ie wasting my time. If you want to speak facts. Do so. But all of them. Especially the inconvenient ones.

Where are the transcripts? What are they hiding? Why did it disappear from the news the minute Russia started releasing evidence? Why was a ukie fighter jet stalking a passanger plane. What was it doing so close to the airplane when the plane went down? Where is the us sat data that would prove their purported assertions? Why did ukrainian secret services release youtube videos to the media purporting to be a recording between the Donbass defenders and Russian handlers? Why did they upload this " evidence " on youtubea day before the plane was shot down?

Rank amateurs


Answer these questions honestly and I might take you seriouy. But if you dont want the answers to these questions. They you clearly arent interested in the truth.


Anyway. I reply based on my posters intellect and intellectual honesty. As of right now youve shown you posess neither.


...

It seems like you suffer from the small man syndrome. Do you always get personal when you argue?

 

[Penguin]

Lol. I think you are too stupid to see the irony in your statement.

So answer the question. Where are the recording from flight control and the cockpit? Why were they confiscated and made secret? What are they hiding? If youre not smart enough to ask these questions yourself then you are either to dumb to take seriously or you are purposely beating around the bush. Ie wasting my time. If you want to speak facts. Do so. But all of them. Especially the inconvenient ones.

Where are the transcripts? What are they hiding? Why did it disappear from the news the minute Russia started releasing evidence? Why was a ukie fighter jet stalking a passanger plane. What was it doing so close to the airplane when the plane went down? Where is the us sat data that would prove their purported assertions? Why did ukrainian secret services release youtube videos to the media purporting to be a recording between the Donbass defenders and Russian handlers? Why did they upload this " evidence " on youtubea day before the plane was shot down?

Rank amateurs


Answer these questions honestly and I might take you seriouy. But if you dont want the answers to these questions. They you clearly arent interested in the truth.


Anyway. I reply based on my posters intellect and intellectual honesty. As of right now youve shown you posess neither.


...

Can't lay off the personal attack, can you? That is very telling.

Well, not where you claim they are ("unkraine interior ministry confiscated them and never released them"), obviously. That question was answered. You don't recognize facts when they are put in front of you.

Assuming there was a Ukrainian Mig stalking the Boeing (there may be other reasons for its presence, if indeed there was a Mig-29 rather than a SU-25), why would it be flown by a Polish pilot? And if Polish military pilot, why not a Polish Mig 29? If Polish involvement, then why focus blaim on Ukraine government? Explain that. Why would the US have to provide sat data? The Russians don't release theirs either (they would have some too if the Americans have some).

Again, I don't have to solve a case to disprove a particular theory about a case.

I don't care whether you take me seriously, or what you base your replies on. It is of no importance, not to me nor to anyone else here.

 

[Penguin]

Some holes bend inwards (e.g. bottom left), other outwards (e.g. bottom right,next to big hole)

Perhaps 2 jets involved in gunning, some claim.

THen again, others claim

"This is a sign the missile, most probably fired by an SA-11 system according to almost all reports to date, equipped with a proximity fuse, detonated on the right side of the aircraft not too far from the nose, scattering several fragments of shrapnel so fast that they traversed the plane from side to side: they entered through the right side of the airframe and got out from the left one."
The Aviationist » Analysis: what these signs on the wreckage tell us about the missile strike that downed MH17

"Photographs of a piece of wreckage found by two reporters for The New York Times and analyzed by Reed Foster, a defense analyst with IHS Jane’s, offers some clues about what could have caused Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 to crash.

While it is impossible from the photographs to determine that a specific missile was used, Mr. Foster said, the damage is consistent with the effects of a fragmentary warhead carried by an SA-11, the type of missile that American officials have said was most likely behind the attack.

The shrapnel came from outside the plane.
Mr. Foster said the contour of the aluminum and the blistering of the paint around many of the holes indicate that small pieces of high-velocity shrapnel entered the aircraft externally. Mr. Foster said the two most likely causes were an engine explosion or an exploding missile. "
Guitar 123 Singapore Food and Travel Blog! : MH 17 Shot Down by Missile - Clues from Wreckage

 

[notgoodenough]

Yeah. I cant really take you seriously. You arent disproving anything youre choosing to accept some peoples opinions over others. Basically you choose to believe whatever fits in with your predetermined end result.

And yes, you do have to give explanations for the holes in your theories. But you cant. So you clam up. Youre a waste of time basically

Some holes bend inwards (e.g. bottom left), other outwards (e.g. bottom right,next to big hole)

Perhaps 2 jets involved in gunning, some claim.

THen again, others claim

"This is a sign the missile, most probably fired by an SA-11 system according to almost all reports to date, equipped with a proximity fuse, detonated on the right side of the aircraft not too far from the nose, scattering several fragments of shrapnel so fast that they traversed the plane from side to side: they entered through the right side of the airframe and got out from the left one."
The Aviationist » Analysis: what these signs on the wreckage tell us about the missile strike that downed MH17

"Photographs of a piece of wreckage found by two reporters for The New York Times and analyzed by Reed Foster, a defense analyst with IHS Jane’s, offers some clues about what could have caused Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 to crash.

While it is impossible from the photographs to determine that a specific missile was used, Mr. Foster said, the damage is consistent with the effects of a fragmentary warhead carried by an SA-11, the type of missile that American officials have said was most likely behind the attack.

The shrapnel came from outside the plane.
Mr. Foster said the contour of the aluminum and the blistering of the paint around many of the holes indicate that small pieces of high-velocity shrapnel entered the aircraft externally. Mr. Foster said the two most likely causes were an engine explosion or an exploding missile. "
Guitar 123 Singapore Food and Travel Blog! : MH 17 Shot Down by Missile - Clues from Wreckage

 

[boomslang]

So whats your assesments of the analysis presented by the Romainian ex military officer and pilot? ...

My 'assessment' is that it's BULLSHIT, just like EVERYTHING else you post.

 

[invinciblesgunner]

Lol. I think you are too stupid to see the irony in your statement.

So answer the question. Where are the recording from flight control and the cockpit? Why were they confiscated and made secret? What are they hiding? If youre not smart enough to ask these questions yourself then you are either to dumb to take seriously or you are purposely beating around the bush. Ie wasting my time. If you want to speak facts. Do so. But all of them. Especially the inconvenient ones.

Where are the transcripts? What are they hiding? Why did it disappear from the news the minute Russia started releasing evidence? Why was a ukie fighter jet stalking a passanger plane. What was it doing so close to the airplane when the plane went down? Where is the us sat data that would prove their purported assertions? Why did ukrainian secret services release youtube videos to the media purporting to be a recording between the Donbass defenders and Russian handlers? Why did they upload this " evidence " on youtubea day before the plane was shot down?

Rank amateurs


Answer these questions honestly and I might take you seriouy. But if you dont want the answers to these questions. They you clearly arent interested in the truth.


Anyway. I reply based on my posters intellect and intellectual honesty. As of right now youve shown you posess neither.


...

All I said was that there is much more to the story than we know. I haven't made up my mind yet on who it blame. In time things will become more clear. Do you always insult people who disagree with your views or is that just on the keyboard?

 

[notgoodenough]

Why are you still addressing me ? If you want to talk facts. Go for it. If you want to regurgitate nato story lines. Find another person to waste time with.

All I said was that there is much more to the story than we know. I haven't made up my mind yet on who it blame. In time things will become more clear. Do you always insult people who disagree with your views or is that just on the keyboard?

 

[Penguin]

Yeah. I cant really take you seriously. You arent disproving anything youre choosing to accept some peoples opinions over others. Basically you choose to believe whatever fits in with your predetermined end result.

Assuming I am, you seriously state that you are not?
What did this thread start out with? References to various experts....

Beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

And yes, you do have to give explanations for the holes in your theories. But you cant. So you clam up. Youre a waste of time basically

Well, no, and not in the last place because I didn't put forward theories. Rather, I checked to see if theories put forward at the start of the thread made sense.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Penguin , I have a question . Do you really believe that a gun can't be used outside its effective range ?

And honestly even a world war 2 Radar have better separation distance than 4km. Maybe you are mistaking 4m with 4km.

 

[Penguin]

Penguin , I have a question . Do you really believe that a gun can't be used outside its effective range ?

Even the Romanian expert speaks of the question of the Mig getting within 900m...
Surely you can use it at longer range, but as indicated while the max range is 4km, the effective ranges given for these guns (different on su-25 and mig-29, while using same ammo) is much less, with the shortest effective range for A2A. Getting the cockpit requires precision (the cabin width of a 777-200ER is 6.2m, to get an idea)

And honestly even a world war 2 Radar have better separation distance than 4km. Maybe you are mistaking 4m with 4km.

I merely quoted from the article of the Romanian expert (to be precise, from the English translation of his French text)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_(aeronautics)