Ben Affleck gets worked up defending Islam on Bill Maher's show

[Mercenary]

Israel is one of many constructs that sprang forth from the dying British Empire. If you want to say that it was done without the consent of the Palestinians, please also note that the partition of India was done without the consent of a majority of the Hindus and many Muslims too.



The same mechanisms that were used to create Israel were also used to create Pakistan, and are just as valid and equal.



Being aware of the wider scenario is good, but the core issues and the corrective actions remain rooted within Muslim countries, not imposed from without.



The coverage is pretty balanced, given that the acts of the extremists are designed by them very cleverly to attract attention and media coverage. If the moderates want more coverage, they must step up their game.

Good response Syed.

I assume you are responding to the Troll Developero.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Good response Syed.

I assume you are responding to the Troll Developero.

If you are curious, you can always click on "show ignore content" to the upper right of the reply box... but why bother?

 

[iPhone]

Hmm, thanks Ben. Nice fella. But doesn't make any difference. With Steven Hawking just recently disproving the existence of God, going in depth into the actual creation of the universe, pretty much means every religion in the world is invalid and a sham.

 

[Developereo]

Israel is one of many constructs that sprang forth from the dying British Empire. If you want to say that it was done without the consent of the Palestinians, please also note that the partition of India was done without the consent of a majority of the Hindus and many Muslims too.

Factually incorrect.

Show me any other colonialist scenario where 90% of the future residents of the created territory were shipped in against the wishes of the indigenous people.

Before you mention Pakistan, be aware that the political division was accorded on the basis of people already living there. Everywhere around the world, the lands were ceded to people living on the land. The _ONLY_ exception was Israel.

The same mechanisms that were used to create Israel were also used to create Pakistan, and are just as valid and equal.

See above.

Being aware of the wider scenario is good, but the core issues and the corrective actions remain rooted within Muslim countries, not imposed from without.

Read my post again.

I did not say the divisions were imposed -- although various colonialist-imposed political divisions, from the Sykes-Picot agreement to the division of East Asian lands, remain a strong factor in the internal troubles of Muslims.

What I wrote is that there are strong forces, both internal and external, reinforcing the divisions. It is simplistic to say that we should ignore the external forces and focus internally. Reality tends to be much more complex than simplistic answers.

The coverage is pretty balanced, given that the acts of the extremists are designed by them very cleverly to attract attention and media coverage. If the moderates want more coverage, they must step up their game.

Once again, you ignored what I wrote and are just repeating in circles.

The fact remains that the dominant pro-Israeli Western media exerts a strong bias against Muslims and has a clear agenda to demonize Muslims. It is not a question of anybody "stepping up" their game.

I already explained the pro-Israeli bias. Nowhere else does the media legitimize the colonial exploits based on racial superiority. Ir is the intellectual fascism imposed by the Western media where any equal criticism of a Jewish person is drowned down by shrill rants of anti-Semitism, and anyone who dares oppose Israel is demonized.

Naturally, you will dismiss this as "Muslim paranoia" -- you have to, in order to be perceived as a progressive (i.e. obedient) person -- but the facts of the intellectual double standard stand, regardless of the denials.

I already gave one example where the Jewish bigot, Sacha Baron Cohen, can make racist generalizations about Iranians, Arabs and Kazhaks, but the reverse would not be tolerated.

I asked you earlier to show me any serious criticism of Jews or Judaism by a non-Jewish person in the mainstream Western media. I am still waiting to see this example of "open and balanced" intellectual discourse...

It takes a strong commitment to fairness and a willingness to break open the chains of brainwashing imposed by the Western fascist media to hold Jewish fanatics to the same standards as any other fanatics, and to have the intellectual courage and honesty to criticize a person even if they are Jewish.

 

[VCheng]

Factually incorrect.
Show me any other colonialist scenario where 90% of the future residents of the created territory were shipped in against the wishes of the indigenous people.
Before you mention Pakistan, be aware that the political division was accorded on the basis of people already living there. Everywhere around the world, the lands were ceded to people living on the land. The _ONLY_ exception was Israel.

No Sir. The immigration that you protest happened only AFTER Israel was formed and was the result of the policies of a sovereign state, not of the British Empire. The partition was done according to the administrative authority of the legal government over those areas from London, in BOTH cases in the Middle East and in India.

I did not say the divisions were imposed -- although various colonialist-imposed political divisions, from the Sykes-Picot agreement to the division of East Asian lands, remain a strong factor in the internal troubles of Muslims.
What I wrote is that there are strong forces, both internal and external, reinforcing the divisions. It is simplistic to say that we should ignore the external forces and focus internally. Reality tends to be much more complex than simplistic answers.

What I said was not to ignore the external forces, but to realize that the path to corrective action begins internally.

The fact remains that the dominant pro-Israeli Western media exerts a strong bias against Muslims and has a clear agenda to demonize Muslims. It is not a question of anybody "stepping up" their game.

No Sir, I would disagree. There is no agenda to demonize Muslims. Western media does a more balanced job of coverage than just about any other media around the world. It is not perfect, but it is still better than just about all the rest.

It takes a strong commitment to fairness and a willingness to break open the chains of brainwashing imposed by the Western fascist media to hold Jewish fanatics to the same standards as any other fanatics, and to have the intellectual courage and honesty to criticize a person even if they are Jewish.

It also takes the same commitment to fairness to realize that the Western media is not fascist, but quite fair and open, and that Muslims should also apply the same standards of judging their own behavior towards others, specially Jews, as they would wish to see apply to them by others

 

[Developereo]

No Sir. The immigration that you protest happened only AFTER Israel was formed and was the result of the policies of a sovereign state, not of the British Empire. The partition was done according to the administrative authority of the legal government over those areas from London, in BOTH cases in the Middle East and in India.

Again, facts dispute your claims.

We are not talking about the total population of Israel after creation, but the percentage Jewish population in the land that was carved out as a "Jewish State" by the colonial authorities.

Jewish migration to Palestine was in play since the late 19th century, long before 1948. British commitment to create a Jewish state happened in 1917, when the Jewish population was 7-15% (dependig on whom you believe),

You are welcome to keep repeating Israelii apologist propaganda, but the population statistics and facts will not change.

Israel is the _ONLY_ creation of colonialism where the land was ceded to people who were shipped in (90%) against the wishes of the local peoples.

What I said was not to ignore the external forces, but to realize that the path to corrective action begins internally.

Be that as it may, the point where this line of discussion started was the claim that most Muslims want to convert the rest of the world to Islam. That is false.

No Sir, I would disagree. There is no agenda to demonize Muslims. Western media does a more balanced job of coverage than just about any other media around the world. It is not perfect, but it is still better than just about all the rest.

You are free to disagree, but I am still waiting for you to product a serious criticism of Jews and Judaism by a non-Jewish person in the mainstream Western media.

I am still waiting for you to show me where a racist stereotype of Jews by an Iranian/Arab/Kazakh is treated with the same levity and acceptance as was accorded to Sacha Baron Cohen.

Until you can produce these two pieces of evidence to demonstrate the "balance" within Western media, you claims will be nothing more than apologist denials.

It also takes the same commitment to fairness to realize that the Western media is not fascist, but quite fair and open, and that Muslims should also apply the same standards of judging their own behavior towards others, specially Jews, as they would wish to see apply to them by others

I already asked you to produce two pieces of evidence to match the anti-Muslim speech in Western media.

I eagerly await your evidence to support your claims..

 

[VCheng]

Again, facts dispute your claims.
We are not talking about the total population of Israel after creation, but the percentage Jewish population in the land that was carved out as a "Jewish State" by the colonial authorities.
Jewish migration to Palestine was in play since the late 19th century, long before 1948. British commitment to create a Jewish state happened in 1917, when the Jewish population was 7-15% (dependig on whom you believe),
You are welcome to keep repeating Israelii apologist propaganda, but the population statistics and facts will not change.
Israel is the _ONLY_ creation of colonialism where the land was ceded to people who were shipped in (90%) against the wishes of the local peoples.

Look at it this way: The percentage of Jews was around 25-30% at the time of partition, which is about the same percentage as that of Muslims in United India at the time of its partition. One cannot call Israel's creation any different than that of Pakistan's.

Be that as it may, the point where this line of discussion started was the claim that most Muslims want to convert the rest of the world to Islam. That is false.

There are many Muslim scholars on records negating your position. What do we make of them?

I am still waiting for you to show me where a racist stereotype of Jews by an Iranian/Arab/Kazakh is treated with the same levity and acceptance as was accorded to Sacha Baron Cohen.

There is nothing to stop a cinematic production that is financed, directed, produced and acted by Muslims to make fun of Jews, is there? That is more a proof of the lack of creativity in the Muslim world than of any anti-Muslim conspiracy.

I already asked you to produce two pieces of evidence to match the anti-Muslim speech in Western media.
I eagerly await your evidence to support your claims.

Considering that anti-Muslim speech in Western media is still more civilized by leaps and bounds than the anti-Jew speech abundantly spouted by Muslims, the overall balance in Western media on this topic is self-evident.

 

[Cherokee]

This thread was very entertaining .

 

[Developereo]

Look at it this way: The percentage of Jews was around 25-30% at the time of partition, which is about the same percentage as that of Muslims in United India at the time of its partition. One cannot call Israel's creation any different than that of Pakistan's.

The percentage of Jews in Palestine was the result of large scale migration of Jews into Palestine, starting about mid-late 19th century, sanctioned by the various colonial rulers against the wishes of the local Palestinians. It is nothing like the creation of Pakistan. The people of Pakistan were living within British India for centuries, long before the Brits came.

There are many Muslim scholars on records negating your position. What do we make of them?

Who are these mainstream Muslim scholars who claim to speak for the majority of the world's Muslims? What evidence do they provide for their claim that most Muslims want to convert the whole world to Islam?

There is nothing to stop a cinematic production that is financed, directed, produced and acted by Muslims to make fun of Jews, is there? That is more a proof of the lack of creativity in the Muslim world than of any anti-Muslim conspiracy.

We are not talking about the Muslim media or the Mongoliam media.

The clip in the OP is from Western media and you denied my claim that the Western media has double standards..

Considering that anti-Muslim speech in Western media is still more civilized by leaps and bounds than the anti-Jew speech abundantly spouted by Muslims, the overall balance in Western media on this topic is self-evident.

Once again, I am not interested in empty statements.

The OP shows two ethnic Jews, hardcore Zionists, making sweeping claims against Islam and Muslims. That claim is considered legitimate political discourse, not hate speech.

I asked you to show me a similar clip where some ethnic Arab, hardcore Islamist, makes sweeping claims against Judaism and Jews, and those claims are considered by mainstream Western media as legitimate political discourse, not hate speech.

I also asked you to show me a counterexample to the rabid Jewish comedian Sacha Baron Cohen's racist portrayal of Iranians, Arabs and Kazhaks, where such portrayal is promoted globally by the Western media.as legitimate entertainment, not racist hate speech.

So, once again, please provide specific evidence to back up your claims, not empty statements.

 

[VCheng]

The percentage of Jews in Palestine was the result of large scale migration of Jews into Palestine, starting about mid-late 19th century, sanctioned by the various colonial rulers against the wishes of the local Palestinians. It is nothing like the creation of Pakistan. The people of Pakistan were living within British India for centuries, long before the Brits came.

Human migration has changed the demographics of regions throughout history. Immigrants have usually not been welcomed by natives in most areas. You have no point here. The percentages I quoted are correct at the time of partition, not before or after.

Who are these mainstream Muslim scholars who claim to speak for the majority of the world's Muslims? What evidence do they provide for their claim that most Muslims want to convert the whole world to Islam?

Oh yes, any scholar I quote will either be "not a scholar" or "not a true Muslim".

We are not talking about the Muslim media or the Mongoliam media.
The clip in the OP is from Western media and you denied my claim that the Western media has double standards..

That is correct: Western media is by and large well balanced and fair. For example, I quoted Bill Maher previously saying that the 9/11 hijackers were not cowards, but USA were. He was lauded at that time. This is the same man who is now saying things about what is being done by Muslims. What is his unfairness here?

Once again, I am not interested in empty statements.
The OP shows two ethnic Jews, hardcore Zionists, making sweeping claims against Islam and Muslims. That claim is considered legitimate political discourse, not hate speech.
I asked you to show me a similar clip where some ethnic Arab, hardcore Islamist, makes sweeping claims against Judaism and Jews, and those claims are considered by mainstream Western media as legitimate political discourse, not hate speech.
I also asked you to show me a counterexample to the rabid Jewish comedian Sacha Baron Cohen's racist portrayal of Iranians, Arabs and Kazhaks, where such portrayal is promoted globally by the Western media.as legitimate entertainment, not racist hate speech.
So, once again, please provide specific evidence to back up your claims, not empty statements.

But what passes for legitimate discourse in hardcore Islamist circles is actually hate speech. Western media is balanced enough to allow people like Reza Arslan refute what Bill Maher said on major outlets, openly and fairly. It is also the same media where Ben Affleck presented his counter arguments against the host, openly and fairly, in support of the Muslims. And all without any censorship.

What is your objection based on the above? It seems to me you have no case to argue.

 

[Developereo]

Human migration has changed the demographics of regions throughout history. Immigrants have usually not been welcomed by natives in most areas. You have no point here. The percentages I quoted are correct at the time of partition, not before or after.

We are talking here of migration imposed by colonial rulers, with a view to creating a country for the migrants and expelling the locals.

Once again, please provide specific, comparable examples, not empty rhetoric.

Oh yes, any scholar I quote will either be "not a scholar" or "not a true Muslim".

Provide the examples and let the readers decide.

That is correct: Western media is by and large well balanced and fair. For example, I quoted Bill Maher previously saying that the 9/11 hijackers were not cowards, but USA were. He was lauded at that time. This is the same man who is now saying things about what is being done by Muslims. What is his unfairness here?

Again, I await the examples I mentioned to substantiate your claim of equal treatment.
Your example does not equate to an ethnic Arab, hardcore Islamist criticizing Jews and Judaism,. Nor does it equate to Cohen's racial stereotyping of Iranisns, Arabs and Kazakhs.

But what passes for legitimate discourse in hardcore Islamist circles is actually hate speech. Western media is balanced enough to allow people like Reza Arslan refute what Bill Maher said on major outlets, openly and fairly. It is also the same media where Ben Affleck presented his counter arguments against the host, openly and fairly, in support of the Muslims. And all without any censorship.

Again, please provide the specific examples that provide a direct comparison to the example in the OP. I already listed what constitutes a direct comparison.

Reza Aslan and Ben Affleck are not attacking Jews and Judaism, nor do they represent hardcore Islamists.

Readers can see when, and why, you are evading the simple questions and spinning around with empty rhetoric..

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

I clicked 'quote me' and wrote responses, then thought why expand this thread another 14 pages?

 

[VCheng]

I clicked 'quote me' and wrote responses, then thought why expand this thread another 14 pages?

I just did the same thing. I agree with your decision.

 

[VCheng]

Good response Syed.

I assume you are responding to the Troll Developero.

Thank you, but please note the @Developereo is an exalted blue label PDF Think Tank Consultant, not a troll.

 

[fallstuff]

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