Bell 412EP - Update

[fatman17]

Pakistan is interested in Mi-17s, has ordered some for the last few years and am not fully sure, but i believe they have few on order for now also.

Problem is, requirement, do we need more of the heavy lift helicopters in the category of Mi-17s or something in medium lift category like the Bell 412s.

Answer is, we need a good amount of the medium lift category helicopters, as they are used more and are needed more compared to heavy lift category ones. And for tribal areas, and WoT operations, these Bell 412s can play a very effective role, dual role, as an attack heli also.

So we need a mix, 50-60 medium lift ones, similar number of Mi-17s type or even more, and then the light ones for high altitude air lift.

But having 50-60 Bell 412s, nearly majority of the medium lift helicopters of US origin, is very dangerous. We need as again, diversification.

30 or so Bell's, rest of the force should have been some other origin.

I am in no favor to rely on the US for such huge number of helicopters.

dont disagree but why 'complicate' the supply chain/logistics - maintaing different types is a 'nightmare' for the ground maintainers.

 

[TaimiKhan]

dont disagree but why 'complicate' the supply chain/logistics - maintaing different types is a 'nightmare' for the ground maintainers.

Yesh, agreed Sir, but what if tomorrow something happens from the west, then what will we be doing then, whole fleet will get in trouble.

What other option do we have left ??

I have been reading about the Chinese ones since a long time and they have come a long way into making their licensed produced helicopters good ones. Lot of modifications done and different versions available.

Do check out the Z-9 licenced copy of the French Daulphin, its specifications are very much near to or in some cases superior to the Bell 412, it can be operated and can be cheap also. Plus, it has many variants, can be used for transport, as well as attack purposes.

It can carry the same or more armament compared to Cobra at the heights which are required, and has night attack capability also.

Had it been me, would have looked at this option, could have gotten then for cheap, spare parts would also not have been that expensive, plus could have gotten some local parts making capability too and would have made it a standard helicopter for majority of the services as well as civilian use, so that number would have grown, thus local production of some spare parts would have been economical.

 

[Arsalan]

many Mi-17 are available in the former 'Warsaw pact' countries which are 'upgraded' and put to good use in afghanistan (from Czeck) and Pakistan (Ukraine/Romania/Russia). 4 were returned by the PAA as the 'upgraded' helos were not up-to-standard.

thank you sir for sorting it out nicely!
as always

@ Sir Muse
ir here are a few links regarding the Mi-17 procurement that we have already discussed:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...nt-deliver-2-mi-171-helicopters-pakistan.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ort-mi-17-transport-helicopters-pakistan.html
the one regarding the over haul in US:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...elicopters-return-after-overhaul-upgrade.html

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

@ TaimiKhan
discussing chines options, not only in medium lift category where you have pointed out Z-9, we also have options in medium-to-heavy lift catgory from china.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ort-mi-17-transport-helicopters-pakistan.html

moreover the new AC313 is a good option, it is currently in civilian role reported to have payload of 13 ton.
can handle 5 ton internally that is good enough!

if we can get it modified for transport role it can be a bright prospect!

regards!

 

[fatman17]

Yesh, agreed Sir, but what if tomorrow something happens from the west, then what will we be doing then, whole fleet will get in trouble.

What other option do we have left ??

I have been reading about the Chinese ones since a long time and they have come a long way into making their licensed produced helicopters good ones. Lot of modifications done and different versions available.

Do check out the Z-9 licenced copy of the French Daulphin, its specifications are very much near to or in some cases superior to the Bell 412, it can be operated and can be cheap also. Plus, it has many variants, can be used for transport, as well as attack purposes.

It can carry the same or more armament compared to Cobra at the heights which are required, and has night attack capability also.

Had it been me, would have looked at this option, could have gotten then for cheap, spare parts would also not have been that expensive, plus could have gotten some local parts making capability too and would have made it a standard helicopter for majority of the services as well as civilian use, so that number would have grown, thus local production of some spare parts would have been economical.

we really need to 'decide' what we want - we dont want to be dependent on the west (read US and sanctions) and we also dont want to be overly dependent on the east (read china and greater influence) - so what do we want to do???

 

[TaimiKhan]

we really need to 'decide' what we want - we dont want to be dependent on the west (read US and sanctions) and we also dont want to be overly dependent on the east (read china and greater influence) - so what do we want to do???

Well best option would have been develop locally, which we can't.

So, i would go for a mix, US, European would favor the AW-139/149 as Turkey may buy this one with local production and in numbers too, Turkish one would be designated TUHP 149, and the manufacturer is AgustaWestland, a Finmeccanica company, with whom we have already good relations and many defence deals plus they have supplied us know how of certain products too, Falco UAV, Grifo radars, their Vixen series a contender for the JF-17 AESA option, ATR turbo props with PIA, joint project owner of MBDA from whom we bought the Spada system and in future may be other missiles. And if we go for T-129, then another Turkish / Italian product.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_htvjsmtPrmc/Sfbgz6AziZI/AAAAAAAABp4/n71M28okBWI/s1600-h/img7073h.jpg

With it, Russian / Chinese if possible Mi-17s and may be some lighter ones from them.

I know you are gonna say over burden with multiple sources and operational issues, but this is the safest bet to have a good reliable fleet.

Bell 412s are coming from US with their money, and most of their use is in WoT related operations, thus their spares cost would be coming from the US also, thus this heli is not that much of a financial burden on us.

So, we can go for another type of heli and AW-149 with its specifications looks a perfect choice.

 

[fatman17]

I know you are gonna say over burden with multiple sources and operational issues,

these are practical issues. we cant wish them away.

 

[Arsalan]

Well best option would have been develop locally, which we can't.

So, i would go for a mix, US, European would favor the AW-139/149 as Turkey may buy this one with local production and in numbers too, Turkish one would be designated TUHP 149, and the manufacturer is AgustaWestland, a Finmeccanica company, with whom we have already good relations and many defence deals plus they have supplied us know how of certain products too, Falco UAV, Grifo radars, their Vixen series a contender for the JF-17 AESA option, ATR turbo props with PIA, joint project owner of MBDA from whom we bought the Spada system and in future may be other missiles. And if we go for T-129, then another Turkish / Italian product.

img7073h.jpg (image)

With it, Russian / Chinese if possible Mi-17s and may be some lighter ones from them.

I know you are gonna say over burden with multiple sources and operational issues, but this is the safest bet to have a good reliable fleet.

Bell 412s are coming from US with their money, and most of their use is in WoT related operations, thus their spares cost would be coming from the US also, thus this heli is not that much of a financial burden on us.

So, we can go for another type of heli and AW-149 with its specifications looks a perfect choice.

but taimi dont you think that saving money in Bell 412 deal not necessarily mean we shoul go for another platform as well.
i mean, as ir Fatman said, we must figure out what we really want. there willbe amny other more important sections of forces that would require more fundings.

as for helos are concerned, for time being, the Bwll 412 and Mi17 are doing good enough in transport wing. specially keepng in view that they are comming in cheap/being paid from US funds!

i think this is how the military top brass is thing right now, there has been nothing regarding purchase of a different and new transport choppers. i think Sir Fatman can confirm this!

regards!

 

[TaimiKhan]

but taimi dont you think that saving money in Bell 412 deal not necessarily mean we shoul go for another platform as well.
i mean, as ir Fatman said, we must figure out what we really want. there willbe amny other more important sections of forces that would require more fundings.

as for helos are concerned, for time being, the Bwll 412 and Mi17 are doing good enough in transport wing. specially keepng in view that they are comming in cheap/being paid from US funds!

i think this is how the military top brass is thing right now, there has been nothing regarding purchase of a different and new transport choppers. i think Sir Fatman can confirm this!

regards!

And what happens when tomorrow US sanctions us, what will happen, whole fleet of 60 helicopters grounded or majority of them grounded or we gonna go for expensive spare parts off the black market ??

We need something on our own and to be reliable.

 

[Zulfiqar]

And what happens when tomorrow US sanctions us, what will happen, whole fleet of 60 helicopters grounded or majority of them grounded or we gonna go for expensive spare parts off the black market ??

Bell 412s are used by a number of muslim countries, its spares can procured without much problem. If Pakistan can maintain F-16s in the 90s then this should not be much of a problem. However, we should use the eastern route for further acquisitions in order to diversify the risk.

We should also keep in mind that anything concrete has not happened yet. They have yet to manufacture the additional choppers and we have yet to pay them for these choppers (i.e if they are not coming through military aid).

 

[Super Falcon]

I still bellieve that black hawk is better than aold Bell 412 if you add few millions more and get a heli which is generation ahead of what you are getting is not a bad deal too and NH 90 is also suiting pakistan's liking and suited our SSG more than any helicopter available in the world

 

[TaimiKhan]

Bell 412s are used by a number of muslim countries, its spares can procured without much problem. If Pakistan can maintain F-16s in the 90s then this should not be much of a problem. However, we should use the eastern route for further acquisitions in order to diversify the risk.

We should also keep in mind that anything concrete has not happened yet. They have yet to manufacture the additional choppers and we have yet to pay them for these choppers (i.e if they are not coming through military aid).

Yeah, we did maintained the F-16s during the 90's sanction time period, but do remember, they were flown less and during the Kargil conflict, their true nature of operational ability was shown when in few days time, we had used up quiet good amount of spares and the situation had gone critical.

AW-139/149 is a much better option and is superior in performance to Bell 412.

And only the military of KSA & UAE i believe use them. So not many option, if Turkey opts for AW-149, we may not have to worry for spare parts much.

And i believe the additional Bell 412s would be coming from the US through the COIN funds or something like that, thus having 60 Bell 412s can have problems.

 

[Zulfiqar]

I do agree that AW-139/149 is a better option but most likely we are not paying for the bell-412 and right now money is a major issue. US is not going to provide european choppers to us (securing jobs in their own states and keeping the money within the US e.t.c e.t.c) so our options are limited.

The only other option is if PRC provides us Z-9s on soft term loans (just like JF-17s, F-22Ps e.t.c).

 

[TaimiKhan]

I do agree that AW-139/149 is a better option but most likely we are not paying for the bell-412 and right now money is a major issue. US is not going to provide european choppers to us (securing jobs in their own states and keeping the money within the US e.t.c e.t.c) so our options are limited.

The only other option is if PRC provides us Z-9s on soft term loans (just like JF-17s, F-22Ps e.t.c).

Well i am not asking for a big order, small orders, which we can pay.

We already have 5-6 AW-139s, thus we can order them in 4-5 helicopter batches, and have a force of 20-25 helicopters within 4-5 years time.

Build this helicopter force slowly, since we have other platform in service.

 

[Penguin]

13m per plus logistic support is not a bad deal - these will be in the LAH config used for recee and light attack.

13x30=390

$13million is the price per aircraft INCLUDING spare and repair parts, support equipment, ferry services, air worthiness certification, publications and technical data, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor logistics, engineering, and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support.

SH-60 unit cost varies, with the version due to the varying specifications, equipment and quantities. For example, the unit cost of the Army's UH-60L Black Hawk is $5.9 million while the unit cost of the Air Force MH-60G Pave Hawk is $10.2 million. In 2008, the unit cost of a SH-60 Blackhawk was $14million (EXCLUDING all the above extra's).