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[53fd]

It's funny how Indian members give their fellow countrymen "Thanks" for their posts, when all their arguments & points raised have been answered in the following posts, effectively nullifying their original argument.

 

[Roybot]

There is no doubt that there are some fighters of the Afghan Taliban hiding in the FATA regions of Pakistan. If you understand the FATA regions of Pakistan, you would understand that Pakistani Law does not apply in the Tribal Areas. Tribal Code or Pashtunwali applies there, and one of its tenants is hospitality of the utmost extreme. When the Afghan Taliban crossed from Afghanistan into FATA Pakistan, they met with their fellow Pakhtun people, and lived in the FATA regions of Pakistan as guests. The Afghan Taliban does not pose any threat to Pakistan, so Pakistan does not attack them. Neither does the Pakistani Army aid and safeguard them, Pashtunwali safeguards the Afghan Taliban. Pakistan does not see any reason to start a war against the Afghan Taliban, especially when it means Pashtunwali being brought into question.

Why do you think people in FATA need special tribal laws? Does having a lawless FATA help Pakistan in any way. Does it have strategic value? Why isn't FATA being assimilated with the rest of Pakistan? You can still be hospitable to people without harboring terrorists can you not? You think people in the rest of Pakistan and India don't have hospitality? In my opinion its time to over rule these obsolete laws by the rule of modern state of Pakistan.

Back in the days warring enemies would stop fighting in the evening, do we do the same now? No we don't cause it doesn't make sense anymore. You can't justify giving shelter to extremists by some tradition of hospitality.

hahahaha u r talking about afghanistan..,,,,,,,,,,not bangladesh,,,,u indians do ur bid waste ur money there,,and our babies hikmatyar and haqqani will take care or u,,,,

This is what a countryman of yours said in another thread? And this sorta behavior and claims aren't one off and certainly not baseless. If Pakistanis themselves claim that are backing certain elements of these extremists, how are we supposed to agree to what you are saying?

This is false. Pakistan has always been willing to seal the border with Afghanistan, Afghanistan hasn't. Afghanistan has always created separatist movements in Pakistan's KPK and FATA because it does not regard the Durand Line as valid. Najibullah, Karzai, Zahir Shah and other Afghan Pashtun nationalist leaders have always tried to separate Pakistan's KPK and FATA for a Pashtunistan or Greater Afghanistan. Karzai claimed the Durand Line as invalid, unacceptable, and something that separated Pashtun brothers on both sides of the border.

Pakistan has always offered to seal the border since day 1, but Karzai and his predecessors have always refused Pakistan's offer. Pakistan has more Pashtuns (28 million Pashtuns) than Afghanistan (12 million Pashtuns) does (& Pashtuns are the biggest ethnic group in Pakistan). Yet, there are always movements coming out of Afghanistan into Pakistan for Pashtunistan, not the other way round.

Sealing the border is one thing mate, and ensuring that Talibans don't escape into your territory while being pursued by ISAF from Afghanistan is another. What you are talking about is permanent sealing on the border.

 

[Roybot]

It's funny how Indian members give their fellow countrymen "Thanks" for their posts, when all their arguments & points raised have been answered in the following posts, effectively nullifying their original argument.

Don't worry too much about the thanks mate. Its all about the time zone. Wait till its night in the Pakistan am sure a lot of Pakistanis will thank your posts too. You know how it works here. Indians will thank Indian posts, Pakistani will thanks Pakistani posts, irrespective of right or wrong.

 

[Vinod2070]

Who are these most? It has not been accepted by anyone but Ahmed Rashid and his fanboys. Pakistan created the Mujahideen with the money of the CIA and ideological help from Saudi Arabia.

The correct term would be that Pakistan let the USA use the Afghans in return for a clean sum of money. It was not the driver at that time you make it out to be.

USA paid Pakistan billions to let it use Pakistani territory to avenge Vietnam.

The off-shoot of the Mujahideen is the Taliban. The Mujahideen were formed in the time of the Cold War, the Taliban were formed in 1996.

It's not as simple. Taliban is not a direct off shoot of those rebels. It was formed years after the Soviets had left and years of the Afghan civil war. The dynamics were totally different.

Pakistan supported the non-Taliban groups such as Hekmetyar and Ahmed Shah Masood (Northern Alliance) at that time against Najibullah, so how could it have created the Taliban?

Two different periods.

Before Soviet withdrawal: Pakistan distributed the supplies it got from USA, Saudis, Israel etc. to several groups before the Afghan war was over (it had to do that to get the supplies in the first place). USA is directly involved at this time and is playing the driver.

After the Soviet Withdrawal: Now, all foreign powers have left. The Afghans are murdering each other and the civilians. Kabul is shelled on a daily basis for years. Now Pakistan is the only foreign player and it supports the Pushtuns for its own games. The Tajiks and Uzbeks are totally anti Pakistan by now.

This is the time, several years after the Soviet withdrawal that Taliban emerges on the scene. Fully supported by Pakistan and its army and agencies.

Pakistan has never meddled in the Afghan affairs. The Afghan Taliban mean nothing to Pakistan. They are ethnic Afghan Pashtuns, and they can do what they please in Afghanistan. Pakistan meddling in Afghan affairs would mean Pakistan sending in troops in Afghanistan without Afghanistan knowing, like India sent troops in East Pakistan, or the US sending in troops in Afghanistan post 2001.

Explained above.

Writers/journalists are free to believe whatever they want: Arundhati Roy, Webster Tarpley & Ahmed Rashid are free to believe whatever they want. You have not given me one piece of evidence to indict the ISI or Pakistan.

Well, its now about belief. There is a lot of research involved and a lot many Pakistani writers also admit the same. Many of them former PA officers.

If you still want to deny the obvious, the choice remains yours.

 

[53fd]

Why do you think people in FATA need special tribal laws?

FATA doesn't need special tribal laws, Pashtuns don't even live according to Islam, they live by Pashunwali. Pashtunwali is a completely independent system, and is in the blood of every Pashtun, Afghan Pashtun or Pakistani Pashtun.

Why isn't FATA being assimilated with the rest of Pakistan? You can still be hospitable to people without harboring terrorists can you not?

Pakistan has tried integrating FATA into Pakistan, but the Pashtun people are fiercely independent. The people in FATA don't see themselves as Pakistanis. Pakistan has already assimilated most of KPK (formerly known as NWFP) into Pakistani law, which caused a huge uproar in FATA, as the Pashtuns in FATA saw the Pashtuns in KPK as slaves of the "Punjabi Pakistani regime". The Pashtuns in FATA & Afghanistan that live by Pashtunwali don't even call the Pashtuns in KPK 'real Pashtuns'. Btw, the tribal people in Chattisgarh and many states of India have not assimilated into mainstream India either, and live by their own tribal laws. It's not so simple.

Does having a lawless FATA help Pakistan in any way. Does it have strategic value?

You assume Pakistan has not tried to assimilate FATA into mainstream Pakistan. Pakistan assimilated KPK, the majority of the region into Pakistani law. If you think being the most backward area of Pakistan, with the least development, and most crime and violence in Pakistan means strategic value for Pakistan, I think you're nuts but you're free to believe what you want to. The statistics in FATA bring the national average in Pakistan down for everything.

Sealing the border is one thing mate, and ensuring that Talibans don't escape into your territory while being pursued by ISAF from Afghanistan is another. What you are talking about is permanent sealing on the border.

If you seal the Afghan-Pakistan border completely and permanently, which Pakistan has offered to do but the US or Afghanistan hasn't, there won't be cross-border infiltration from Afghanistan to Pakistan, or vice versa. ISAF and NATO can focus on defeating the Afghan Taliban in Afghanistan, Pakistan can focus on defeating Al-Qaeda and TTP in Pakistan; and even if there are Afghan Taliban left in Pakistan, they wouldn't be able to cross the border into Afghanistan. Problem solved. Why doesn't the US or Afghanistan agree to this?

 

[jayron]

You didn't provide any proof though, only conjecture and mere speculation by international & domestic thinktanks & journalists. Doesn't mean it's true for jack.

What is proof for you? You want the pic of Hamid Gul on stage with Let thugs or the interview of Mushraff?

Musharraf admits Kashmir militants trained in Pakistan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11474618

 

[53fd]

It's not as simple. Taliban is not a direct off shoot of those rebels. It was formed years after the Soviets had left and years of the Afghan civil war. The dynamics were totally different.

It's exactly that simple. The leaders of the Taliban, Mullah Umar, Haqqani and other people were part of the Mujahideen, and then later formed the Taliban. They split up from the Mujahideen after the Soviets lost, Ahmed Shah Masood and Hektmetyar who were also in the Mujahideen went their own ways, Haqqani and Umar went their own.

Now, all foreign powers have left. The Afghans are murdering each other and the civilians. Kabul is shelled on a daily basis for years. Now Pakistan is the only foreign player and it supports the Pushtuns for its own games. The Tajiks and Uzbeks are totally anti Pakistan by now.

Now this is where you are wrong and filled with propaganda. Pakistan did NOT support the Pashtuns, Pakistan supported the Tajik leader Ahmed Shah Masood and Hekmetyar against Pashtun leader Najibullah and Uzbek leader Dostum.

I don't know where you are getting your lessons from.

 

[53fd]

What is proof for you? You want the pic of Hamid Gul on stage with Let thugs or the interview of Mushraff?

Musharraf admits Kashmir militants trained in Pakistan
BBC News - Musharraf admits Kashmir militants trained in Pakistan

I can post pictures of Bush and Cheney meeting Taliban officials in America right before 9/11. Does it mean 9/11 was a false flag operation? And please, stick to Afghanistan here, we are talking about Afghanistan. Unlike Afghanistan, Kashmir is a disputed territory.

 

[Vinod2070]

It's exactly that simple. The leaders of the Taliban, Mullah Umar, Haqqani and other people were part of the Mujahideen, and then later formed the Taliban. They split up from the Mujahideen after the Soviets lost, Ahmed Shah Masood and Hektmetyar who were also in the Mujahideen went their own ways, Haqqani and Umar went their own.

I said the dynamic were different when Taliban was formed compared to when Afghans were fighting the USSR with the help of USA.

Some leaders were definitely common. The purpose of entities was totally different. The Taliban was only created to fight other Afghans and bring a Pushtun brand of Islamic rule over all of Afghanistan.

Now this is where you are wrong and filled with propaganda. Pakistan did NOT support the Pashtuns, Pakistan supported the Tajik leader Ahmed Shah Masood and Hekmetyar against Pashtun leader Najibullah and Uzbek leader Dostum.

Pakistan distributed the supplies it got from USA and others to non Pushtun factions as well (though there were accusations of favoritism even then) before the USSR withdrawal. After that it totally fell out with all non Pushtun factions.

Najibullah was a commie! He was not pro Pakistan so why would Pakistan support him? What has that got to do with anything?

Even Karzai is a Pushtun. Does Pakistan support him?

I don't know where you are getting your lessons from.

I am drawing my conclusions from the facts that I have read about.

 

[jayron]

I can post pictures of Bush and Cheney meeting Taliban officials in America right before 9/11. Does it mean 9/11 was a false flag operation?

You are in denial and take pride in arguing and not exactly comprehending what is being said. Instead of refuting everything being said go do some research your self. Watch Mushraf' and Gul's interviews and come back. Also be honest to yourself. Such redundant arguments don't really make any sense.

 

[Vinod2070]

I can post pictures of Bush and Cheney meeting Taliban officials in America right before 9/11. Does it mean 9/11 was a false flag operation? And please, stick to Afghanistan here, we are talking about Afghanistan. Unlike Afghanistan, Kashmir is a disputed territory.

It shows Pakistani support for acknowledged terrorists.

 

[Roybot]

FATA doesn't need special tribal laws, Pashtuns don't even live according to Islam, they live by Pashunwali. Pashtunwali is a completely independent system, and is in the blood of every Pashtun, Afghan Pashtun or Pakistani Pashtun.

Pakistan has tried integrating FATA into Pakistan, but the Pashtun people are fiercely independent. The people in FATA don't see themselves as Pakistanis. Pakistan has already assimilated most of KPK (formerly known as NWFP) into Pakistani law, which caused a huge uproar in FATA, as the Pashtuns in FATA saw the Pashtuns in KPK as slaves of the "Punjabi Pakistani regime". The Pashtuns in FATA & Afghanistan that live by Pashtunwali don't even call the Pashtuns in KPK 'real Pashtuns'. Btw, the tribal people in Chattisgarh and many states of India have not assimilated into mainstream India either, and live by their own tribal laws. It's not so simple.

See it doesn't matter if the people of FATA liked the integration of KPK into Pakistani law or not. Do you see whats happening here? A few thousand gun trotting tribals are making the whole country hostage. Its time to show these people who the boss is. If FATA people don't see themselves as Pakistanis, its high time to give them a belting and ensure that they see themselves as Pakistani. Whats in the blood of a Pashtun should not be bigger than the law of the land.

You assume Pakistan has not tried to assimilate FATA into mainstream Pakistan. Pakistan assimilated KPK, the majority of the region into Pakistani law. If you think being the most backward area of Pakistan, with the least development, and most crime and violence in Pakistan means strategic value for Pakistan, I think you're nuts but you're free to believe what you want to. The statistics in FATA bring the national average in Pakistan down for everything.

Its been more than 60 years now! More than enough time to have integrated couple of million FATA people into mainstream Pakistan. Aaj yeh aaphike diye hue choot ka faiyda utha rahen hain! And I said does Pakistan sees the lawless tribal areas as an asset, cause it has been used as an asset all along. From Afghanistan, to Chechenya, to Kashmir to Bosnia. You know exactly what am talking about. If all of Pakistan and its armed forces were sincere, it can get rid of this tribal menace in a matter of couple of years.

If you seal the Afghan-Pakistan border completely and permanently, which Pakistan has offered to do but the US or Afghanistan hasn't, there won't be cross-border infiltration from Afghanistan to Pakistan, or vice versa. ISAF and NATO can focus on defeating the Afghan Taliban in Afghanistan, Pakistan can focus on defeating Al-Qaeda and TTP in Pakistan; and even if there are Afghan Taliban left in Pakistan, they wouldn't be able to cross the border into Afghanistan. Problem solved. Why doesn't the US or Afghanistan agree to this?

If Pakistan wanted to seal the border it should have pestered the US, the NATO the whole word about it. Just saying it once that yes we want to seal the border doesn't mean anything. If Pakistan starts sealing its border today, do you think any country will oppose it?

 

[53fd]

Najibullah was a commie! He was not pro Pakistan so why would Pakistan support him? What has that got to do with anything?

If Pakistan wanted to support Pashtuns and gain the support of the Afghan Pashtuns, it would have supported Najibullah. It didn't. So your conclusion that Pakistan supports the Pashtuns is wrong. Pakistan also supported Ahmed Shah Masood (Tajik, non-Pashtun) against Najibullah.

I am drawing my conclusions from the facts that I have read about.

Your conclusions are wrong as I have explained to you over quite a few posts. You have tried to make your own simplified connections between past and present, but you are factually and historically wrong on many accounts. It's not a good thing reading conspiracy theories and believing in them when you do not the crux of the Afghan-Pakistan situation. I hope I have clarified your misconceptions and errors.

 

[KS]

A self-respecting nation like Pakistan will resist pressure from the US to release a known killer like Raymond Davis. A bootlicker like India would release & bail out Warren Anderson for killing thousands of Indians in the Bhopal Industrial Disaster. The US is killing the international network (not Pakistani citizens) of Al-Qaeda that crossed over from Afghanistan into FATA by the use of drone attacks, as well as the Afghan Taliban (Afghan citizens, not Pakistanis). Pakistan is conducting its own ground operations against the TTP (Pakistani citizens) that pose a threat to Pakistan (for example: in Swat, South Waziristan etc), just like India is conducting operations against the Maoists, Islamists & others in India.

Pakistan has an independent policy from China, India serves the orders of its master 'The US', especially in its relations with Pakistan. There are Indians who constantly claim India is a complete slave to the US when it comes to dealing with Pakistan. India is a wimp, and a slave to its masters. Pakistan does not think about China when it deals with other countries, India thinks about the US when dealing with Pakistan. India also receives more foreign aid than Pakistan or any developing country in the world. So it is indeed a boot licker and a slave. And you have just been totally OWNED

Do the words "Do More" and "We will bomb you back to stone age" ring any bells to you ??

And you are talking about India being slave ?? Funny.

 

[Vinod2070]

You are in denial and take pride in arguing and not exactly comprehending what is being said. Instead of refuting everything being said go do some research your self. Watch Mushraf' and Gul's interviews and come back. Also be honest to yourself. Such redundant arguments don't really make any sense.

You hit the nail on the head.

Denial: that is the word I was searching for.