Battle of Kursk 1943 - World War II

[dexter]

After the defeat at Stalingrad (https://goo.gl/RvGTL8) and the loss of the 6th army, German Wehrmacht needed a decisive victory to get the initiative back and turn the tide of the World War II. The concentration of the Soviet troops around the Kursk salient offered that opportunity and Hitler ordered the operation Citadel with a goal of cutting the salient and surrounding the Red Army forces defending it. This would be one of the last German offensives on the Eastern Front and would culminate at the arguably biggest tank battle in history - Prokhorovka and Soviet counter-attacks during the operations Rumyantsev and Kutuzov.

 

[waz]

Just insane the amount of men and machines involved on this battle. We will never again see such events again. You just need to see the footage of the fighting to see what I am writing about.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Just insane the amount of men and machines involved on this battle. We will never again see such events again. You just need to see the footage of the fighting to see what I am writing about.

Agreed. The amount of steel clashing with steel with soldiers being torn apart on industrial scale that even the earth cried .....

King Tigers.

 

[dexter]

Just insane the amount of men and machines involved on this battle. We will never again see such events again. You just need to see the footage of the fighting to see what I am writing about.

Not to forget that the Germans being outnumbered did very well against Soviets but still it's amazing the Soviets having sustained heavy losses in terms of manpower and machinery compared to German, were able to absorb these losses, reform the army, and go on the offensive while the Germans lost their offensive capabilities and turned defensive.

 

[Army research]

This battle proved that defense with variable depth, and powerful reserve shock troops waiting for the counter attack
Basically make the enemy attack you, ie in your territory,
Don't concentrate defensive structures but spread them,
Have strong but stretched fortifications with defensive reserve in central positioned and not entrenched , so it can entrench at any point enemy threatens,
These forces and defences remove the shock or blitz from the enemy attack, bog or slow them over own territory which is mined , anti tank obstacles and AT teams,
Once the enemies shock or steam is slowed or ruined , and since attacks are concentrated to break your defence from a single point (ardennes example) , that means attacking forces concentrated too , and in enemy territory, and bogged down ( even if for a really short time )
A strong offensive reserve can now attack this force from any friendly direction, perform a pincer movement and surround it and what would follow would be a blood bath of trapped force.
Though in modern battles there are many more variables, yet this is the core defensive strategy for the 21st century , allowing smaller forces to thwart large attacks by using assymetric techniques ,
The only way to defeat this strategy is either overwhelming air superiority or
Attack before the enemy fortifications are ready
In indo Pak case, in Kashmir the strategy of strong of spread bunkers and observations posts, with a battalion reserve in a central position along with fire support company , so if any single lightly manned post ( although the fortifications are built to host a strong force ) or area is attacked , immediately battalion reserves can reach the place within in minutes if not then under an hour,
Also we can see army establishing strong reserve groups ie army reserve north and south , which is the same battalion concept I outlined but scaled up to divisions,

This perfect strategy was first effectively used in the kursk salient, although here the Russians knew the attack was coming and the Germans delayed it as well , allowing the red army to construct trenches which if layed out as a single road would stretch from Moscow to Berlin.
Personally this has been my favourite war documentary series

 

[waz]

This battle proved that defense with variable depth, and powerful reserve shock troops waiting for the counter attack
Basically make the enemy attack you, ie in your territory,
Don't concentrate defensive structures but spread them,
Have strong but stretched fortifications with defensive reserve in central positioned and not entrenched , so it can entrench at any point enemy threatens,
These forces and defences remove the shock or blitz from the enemy attack, bog or slow them over own territory which is mined , anti tank obstacles and AT teams,
Once the enemies shock or steam is slowed or ruined , and since attacks are concentrated to break your defence from a single point (ardennes example) , that means attacking forces concentrated too , and in enemy territory, and bogged down ( even if for a really short time )
A strong offensive reserve can now attack this force from any friendly direction, perform a pincer movement and surround it and what would follow would be a blood bath of trapped force.
Though in modern battles there are many more variables, yet this is the core defensive strategy for the 21st century , allowing smaller forces to thwart large attacks by using assymetric techniques ,
The only way to defeat this strategy is either overwhelming air superiority or
Attack before the enemy fortifications are ready
In indo Pak case, in Kashmir the strategy of strong of spread bunkers and observations posts, with a battalion reserve in a central position along with fire support company , so if any single lightly manned post ( although the fortifications are built to host a strong force ) or area is attacked , immediately battalion reserves can reach the place within in minutes if not then under an hour,
Also we can see army establishing strong reserve groups ie army reserve north and south , which is the same battalion concept I outlined but scaled up to divisions,

This perfect strategy was first effectively used in the kursk salient, although here the Russians knew the attack was coming and the Germans delayed it as well , allowing the red army to construct trenches which if layed out as a single road would stretch from Moscow to Berlin.
Personally this has been my favourite war documentary series

Good post, the same trenches, canals, tank traps and manned positions also face attacking Indian armour.
But anyway, that's for another thread.

 

[Army research]

Good post, the same trenches, canals, tank traps and manned positions also face attacking Indian armour.
But anyway, that's for another thread.

Yeah I was just explaining how zhukovs strategy for kursk is used in modern times,
Kudos

 

[MBT 3000]

no one can invade russia during the winter except
wait for it
the mongols
(if you dont understand watch crash course history on youtube)

i love that history channel on battles

 

[Army research]

no one can invade russia during the winter except
wait for it
the mongols
(if you dont understand watch crash course history on youtube)

i love that history channel on battles

Yeah I've seen it but napolean was successful , what beat him were bagrations strategy of scorched earth where the Russians essentially burnt their own country men's farms on a large large scale , to starve the French.
The French army faced the winter and was able to capture Moscow, yet a burnt city with burnt farms can't feed an army of 600,000

 

[MBT 3000]

Yeah I've seen it but napolean was successful , what beat him were bagrations strategy of scorched earth where the Russians essentially burnt their own country men's farms on a large large scale , to starve the French.
The French army faced the winter and was able to capture Moscow, yet a burnt city with burnt farms can't feed an army of 600,000

true nearly the same happened with germany(except schorched earth and some things). They were first succesful but later started to fail and then got defeated.

 

[Signalian]

Good post, the same trenches, canals, tank traps and manned positions also face attacking Indian armour.
But anyway, that's for another thread.

Not changing topic, but the figures of Germany reflect those of Pakistan, while Soviets reflect those of India.
The difference is that German Army was experienced, just like Pakistani General Staff say Pakistan Army battle hardened, whereas most of Russian Army was not that experienced, still the numbers overwhelmed the experience. The reserves played their role.

There was one decisive factor that could have helped the Germans; By-passing defenses after breaking through from north or south, and then either flanking or continuing advance onto thinly defended positions but it didnt happen. They took all the defensive lines head-on, recipe for disaster, and on top of it kept facing Soviet counter attacks.

In today's scenario; Gunships, UAV/UCAV's, special forces (airborne/air assault) will play a major role.

This battle proved that defense with variable depth, and powerful reserve shock troops waiting for the counter attack
Basically make the enemy attack you, ie in your territory,
Don't concentrate defensive structures but spread them,
Have strong but stretched fortifications with defensive reserve in central positioned and not entrenched , so it can entrench at any point enemy threatens,
These forces and defences remove the shock or blitz from the enemy attack, bog or slow them over own territory which is mined , anti tank obstacles and AT teams,
Once the enemies shock or steam is slowed or ruined , and since attacks are concentrated to break your defence from a single point (ardennes example) , that means attacking forces concentrated too , and in enemy territory, and bogged down ( even if for a really short time )
A strong offensive reserve can now attack this force from any friendly direction, perform a pincer movement and surround it and what would follow would be a blood bath of trapped force.
Though in modern battles there are many more variables, yet this is the core defensive strategy for the 21st century , allowing smaller forces to thwart large attacks by using assymetric techniques ,
The only way to defeat this strategy is either overwhelming air superiority or
Attack before the enemy fortifications are ready
In indo Pak case, in Kashmir the strategy of strong of spread bunkers and observations posts, with a battalion reserve in a central position along with fire support company , so if any single lightly manned post ( although the fortifications are built to host a strong force ) or area is attacked , immediately battalion reserves can reach the place within in minutes if not then under an hour,
Also we can see army establishing strong reserve groups ie army reserve north and south , which is the same battalion concept I outlined but scaled up to divisions,

This perfect strategy was first effectively used in the kursk salient, although here the Russians knew the attack was coming and the Germans delayed it as well , allowing the red army to construct trenches which if layed out as a single road would stretch from Moscow to Berlin.
Personally this has been my favourite war documentary series

your thinking at level of 800-1000 troops level is good, but this scenario is about 0.7 to 1 million troops. You need to think about Theater Army level tactic and strategy.

 

[Army research]

Not changing topic, but the figures of Germany reflect those of Pakistan, while Soviets reflect those of India.
The difference is that German Army was experienced, just like Pakistani General Staff say Pakistan Army battle hardened, whereas most of Russian Army was not that experienced, still the numbers overwhelmed the experience. The reserves played their role.

There was one decisive factor that could have helped the Germans; By-passing defenses after breaking through from north or south, and then either flanking or continuing advance onto thinly defended positions but it didnt happen. They took all the defensive lines head-on, recipe for disaster, and on top of it kept facing Soviet counter attacks.

In today's scenario; Gunships, UAV/UCAV's, special forces (airborne/air assault) will play a major role.


your thinking at level of 800-1000 troops level is good, but this scenario is about 0.7 to 1 million troops. You need to think about Theater Army level tactic and strategy.

I do, I was just talking about the only ongoing indo pak active warfront , anything above battalion level ops in those areas are not possible due to terrain

 

[vostok]

hardened, whereas most of Russian Army was not that experienced, still the numbers overwhelmed the experience. The reserves played their role.

Numbers are nothing in modern days wars. Red Army was well experienced in the middle of 1943 and our commanders were smarter.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Numbers are nothing in modern days wars.

Modern. As in today. In WW2 they still carried weight. The fact was Germans were outnumbered, outgunned and outfronted.

 

[Armchair]

Not changing topic, but the figures of Germany reflect those of Pakistan, while Soviets reflect those of India.
The difference is that German Army was experienced, just like Pakistani General Staff say Pakistan Army battle hardened, whereas most of Russian Army was not that experienced, still the numbers overwhelmed the experience. The reserves played their role.

There was one decisive factor that could have helped the Germans; By-passing defenses after breaking through from north or south, and then either flanking or continuing advance onto thinly defended positions but it didnt happen. They took all the defensive lines head-on, recipe for disaster, and on top of it kept facing Soviet counter attacks.

In today's scenario; Gunships, UAV/UCAV's, special forces (airborne/air assault) will play a major role.


your thinking at level of 800-1000 troops level is good, but this scenario is about 0.7 to 1 million troops. You need to think about Theater Army level tactic and strategy.

This is why I was noting that is PA were expanded as we were discussing, the independent brigades would be difficult to manage. With large number of formations, the most useful unit on the board stops being the brigade and becomes the division (and in larger settings become the Corps or even Army group).

Industrial warfare needs an industrial strategy to get the scale. Buying foreign arms can never give you that scale...

Kursk goes against every principle of blitzkreig. This was a serious mistake on the part of Germany - they invented maneuver warfare, then abandoned its principles just when they needed to stick to it most. At Kursk it was a major blunder. Meanwhile, in North Africa, the Germans destroyed their army holding a static defensive line against a significantly superior force with air superiority. Again a failure of blitzkreig principles. But I guess hindsight is always 20/20.