bangladesh getting su-30mkk around 2016? wiki

[TopCat]

Aah just as i expected, you really dont know how this dictatorship thing goes.
I had this teacher back in 2nd semester of University, he's been teaching in different universities as visiting lecturer for over 25 years.
He used to be a part of a batch of Punjab University Lahore before The Dhaka Fall,
He shared quite a lot of his experiences with Benagli Students who studied there and lived in Surrounding areas.

He'd surely disagree to what youre saying.
I can even share his experiences and he just aint the only one.
but this is pointless and inconclusive. aint gonna change anything.

Brother it was Bhutto along with West Pakistani political establishment was behind the army in operation search light 25th March 1971. Bhutto observed the horror from the hotel Intercontinental Dhaka on that night and expressed satisfaction in the following days.

 

[damiendehorn]

Aah just as i expected, you really dont know how this dictatorship thing goes.
I had this teacher back in 2nd semester of University, he's been teaching in different universities as visiting lecturer for over 25 years.
He used to be a part of a batch of Punjab University Lahore before The Dhaka Fall,
He shared quite a lot of his experiences with Benagli Students who studied there and lived in Surrounding areas.

He'd surely disagree to what youre saying.
I can even share his experiences and he just aint the only one.
but this is pointless and inconclusive. aint gonna change anything.

As i expected another case of denial....its so easy to blame it all on "the general" it was "a dictatorship"....Pakistan isn't responsible for those mass murders, it was the general. Pakistani soldiers were just following orders when they were butchering innocent civilians, men, women and children...

And you wonder why we hate your kind?

 

[Max Pain]

Brother it was Bhutto along with West Pakistani political establishment was behind the army in operation search light 25th March 1971. Bhutto observed the horror from the hotel Intercontinental Dhaka on that night and expressed satisfaction in the following days.

oh I have his speech in which he passed derogatory remarks regarding the Bengalis in Sindh.
but the point is he wasnt ruling.

the very point where the disagreement is what the other guy said that the whole West used to think the same,
thats just not the case.
i hope i made myself clear.

 

[Nilgiri]

Bhutto was indeed quite the psychotic crook. Worst kind of politician, and thats saying something given the average politician out there.

It is hard to exactly say how many Pakistanis knew about the events on the ground leading up and during 1971 liberation war....the atrocities commited by their army etc....and what they would have thought/felt/acted if they knew.

However we can gauge that the majority supported in some fashion, seeing how regular Pakistanis even today continue to live in denial, blame India solely and cover up their glaring atrocities and refuse to even consider apology, much less perform war crimes trial and pay reparations.

You are free to do a poll among Pakistanis and see the results for yourself...and then ask is this the type of population that would have supported Yahya Khan in the name of a distorted iron fisted clench of "unity" or supported genuine aspirations and basic human rights (like that of the right to live) of fellow citizens.

 

[Max Pain]

As i expected another case of denial....its so easy to blame it all on "the general" it was "a dictatorship"....Pakistan isn't responsible for those mass murders, it was the general. Pakistani soldiers were just following orders when they were butchering innocent civilians, men, women and children...

And you wonder why we hate your kind?

oh thats the kind of denial Id certainly live with.
wont really change or refute to what I said.

and what made you say that we wonder why you hate our kind?
did I?No.
its all too apparent.
what happened there was well there to be seen.

kindly stick to what i said.

 

[damiendehorn]

India lost a lot of goodwill from Bangladesh when it did not run a war crimes trial similar to Nuremberg regarding the captured soldiers in East Pakistan. Bangladesh should have also been brought to run the proceedings together. Only after running through the appropriate screening should Pakistani soldiers have been released to West Pakistan. The witnesses were all still there and memories were still fresh....the time was right to put a complete nail in Pakistan delusions of superiority.

Bangladeshis have also often claimed that elements of Indian army looted Bangladeshi warehouses, depots and other storage venues...I am unsure how much truth lies behind these claims....but the perception persists nonetheless.

Anyways if we look at:

How Asians View Each Other | Pew Research Center

It can be seen that 70% of Bangladeshis have a favourable view of India but 27% also see India as the biggest threat. So you can see the population is quite polarized....but a solid few terms of Awami league rule now and improving economic performance should reduce the overall maneuvering space of the most avid India haters till they become irrelevant (and forced to seek refuge in the odd defence forum ).

Really? I live half of the year in Dhaka, I know what people think about India. the Awami league cant do jack about how people perceive india, the only ones that like your nation are the AL members and those that are over 70 (a group that's decreasing daily).

Trust me i speak a lot to ordinary Bangladeshis, they are polite to guests (even indians) but they hate india, specially the new generation

 

[Nilgiri]

Really? I live half of the year in Dhaka, I know what people think about India. the Awami league cant do jack about how people perceive india, the only ones that like your nation are the AL members and those that are over 70 (a group that's decreasing daily).

Trust me i speak a lot to ordinary Bangladeshis, they are polite to guests (even indians) but they hate india, specially the new generation

If that is your perception, so be it. I would rather stick to what a neutral survey gives as figures (in the survey link) than what a typical defence forum member claims.

No offence, most defence forum types all have to hate on a particular country or group of countries for some reason. It is often not representative of the average person's views.

 

[damiendehorn]

oh thats the kind of denial Id certainly live with.
wont really change or refute to what I said.

and what made you say that we wonder why you hate our kind?
did I?No.
its all too apparent.
what happened there was well there to be seen.

kindly stick to what i said.

Cant really understand your broken English, the truth is majority of Bangladeshis have very little love for Pakistan period.

 

[Max Pain]

Bhutto was indeed quite the psychotic crook. Worst kind of politician, and thats saying something given the average politician out there.

It is hard to exactly say how many Pakistanis knew about the events on the ground leading up and during 1971 liberation war....the atrocities commited by their army etc....and what they would have thought/felt/acted if they knew.

However we can gauge that the majority supported in some fashion, seeing how regular Pakistanis even today continue to live in denial, blame India solely and cover up their glaring atrocities and refuse to even consider apology, much less perform war crimes trial and pay reparations.

You are free to do a poll among Pakistanis and see the results for yourself...and then ask is this the type of population that would have supported Yahya Khan in the name of a distorted iron fisted clench of "unity" or supported genuine aspirations and basic human rights (like that of the right to live) of fellow citizens.

true true.
you might know of "Hassan Nisar"
there was a documentary that I saw on tv about Dhaka Fall there Hassan Nisar claimed that during the time when things became really tense, people here were not allowed to protest or speak against whats really Happening in East Pak.

even the Hamood Ur Rehman comission as a whole is yet to be read by majority of the people here

"Originally, there were 12 copies of the Report. These were all destroyed; except the one that was handed over to Government who disallowed its publication at the time. In 2000, parts of the commission report was leaked equally to Indian and Pakistaninewspapers, Dawn, in its editorial section. The full report was declassified by the government in 2000, with additional reports concerning the year of 1971"

Cant really understand your broken English, the truth is majority of Bangladeshis have very little love for Pakistan period.

cool.

 

[Nilgiri]

true true.
you might know of "Hassan Nisar"
there was a documentary that I saw on tv about Dhaka Fall there Hassan Nisar claimed that during the time when things became really tense, people here were not allowed to protest or speak against whats really Happening in East Pak.

even the Hamood Ur Rehman comission as a whole is yet to be read by majority of the people here

"Originally, there were 12 copies of the Report. These were all destroyed; except the one that was handed over to Government who disallowed its publication at the time. In 2000, parts of the commission report was leaked equally to Indian and Pakistaninewspapers, Dawn, in its editorial section. The full report was declassified by the government in 2000, with additional reports concerning the year of 1971"

Often average citizens are left to be blind about events before, during and after a traumatic incident brought on for whatever causes, especially when politics is involved....and war is just an extension of politics on the ground.

I would like to believe that even after seeing various types of vicious comments over the years by Pakistani people on defence forums and media channels etc regarding 1971 and Bangladesh...that the average guy on the street would still be open to realise the wrongs if confronted with the cold hard evidence.

But herd mentality, over-nationalistic fervour with or without religion in the mix...all makes this situation next to impossible to even attempt. So while the shroud of ignorance and blanket of denial exists, how can we gauge the content of the true character of people? There are entirely reasonable people within Pakistan for sure who are calm and capable of empathy and sympathy and have good morals and decency towards fellow human beings...but how many even get the opportunity to question why things are the way they are (regarding history and politics of Pakistan)....and seriously introspect events like 1971?

It is not just Pakistan, many many countries and societies worldwide are guilty of this kind of behaviour. Armenian Genocide, WW2 Holocaust, Japanese atrocities in WW2....they all have their various deniers. Pakistan and 1971 is just especially bad because the society as a whole is completely caught in a stasis as to the reason for Pakistan's existence, the narrative of the eternal Hindu enemy and the black and white picture rammed down formative minds to continue this cycle unabated on a persistent national level....compared to say Germany where such deniers are clearly in the minority and Japan where they are prevalent but not perpetuated to the same degree.

We are very quick to dismiss and live in a secured reality established by our immediate neighbourhood and family. Pakistan someday will have to find a way to break this mould just enough so that it can come to terms with why it was split into two...but the fact that right at the end of 1971 when the truth came crashing down after a week of reporting victory after victory in Pakistan newspapers.....the people still did not question the entire purpose of the conflict.....they could not come to believe that many soldiers had commited such sins....and some even justified that if they did....it was acceptable because Bengalis were traitors and secretly all hindus etc and there was always a conspiracy from the beginning etc etc.

It is a disease I have noted exists in various shapes and guises across the subcontinent....but an especially virulent strain of it has really taken hold in Pakistan.....and a cure does not seem to be coming soon unfortunately.

For that Pakistan must become a more educated and tolerant nation in its very raison d'etre....but this has all too often been hijacked by extremists and ultra-nationalists who have only one subject of focus - defeating India by some miracle.

 

[damiendehorn]

If that is your perception, so be it. I would rather stick to what a neutral survey gives as figures (in the survey link) than what a typical defence forum member claims.

No offence, most defence forum types all have to hate on a particular country or group of countries for some reason. It is often not representative of the average person's views.

The survey was conducted by who, when, where? I could conduct a survey today that show the whole of Bangladesh loves China, or Russia or X....I know the facts on the ground....they can be broken down as follows

those that have a positive view towards india are:

1. older generation (70+), who lived through the war of 71, who's numbers are decreasing each day.
2. AL members who have a personal interest to support a positive image of india to maintain their self interest.
3. most of the hindu population, though not all.

All in all no more the 20% of the people...outside of those groups, which is a vast majority really really dislike india....they even fly flags of pakistan in Bangladesh vs india sports matches (the AL gov had to ban students flying pakistani flags) just to piss you off.

 

[Nilgiri]

The survey was conducted by who, when, where? I could conduct a survey today that show the whole of Bangladesh loves China, or Russia or X....I know the facts on the ground....they can be broken down as follows

Heres the survey for your reference:

How Asians View Each Other | Pew Research Center

Pewglobal is quite reputable. Let me see what surveys you can bring up from neutral sources.

I trust pew to a large degree because they actually explain their methodology and you can plug in their sample size numbers into the appropriate statistical equations to get a confidence level quite easily.

Whenever one person claims to know the "facts on the ground", we are forced to take his word for it. Thats a sample size of effectively 1 which is a confidence level of next to 0. So no thanks! The inherent biases of defence forums are also quite strong and prevalent. They are good for exchanging views and having debates.....not for collating hard data and evidence...especially on divisive issues regarding national interest etc.

those that have a positive view towards india are:

1. older generation (70+), who lived through the war of 71, who's numbers are decreasing each day.
2. AL members who have a personal interest to support a positive image of india to maintain their self interest.
3. most of the hindu population, though not all.

All in all no more the 20% of the people...outside of those groups, which is a vast majority really really dislike india....

That's all well and good, but until you find a 3rd party neutral source....this is simply your opinion on the matter....and I will treat it as such.

 

[damiendehorn]

Heres the survey for your reference:

How Asians View Each Other | Pew Research Center

Pewglobal is quite reputable. Let me see what surveys you can bring up from neutral sources.

I trust pew to a large degree because they actually explain their methodology and you can plug in their sample size numbers into the appropriate statistical equations to get a confidence level quite easily.

Whenever one person claims to know the "facts on the ground", we are forced to take his word for it. Thats a sample size of effectively 1 which is a confidence level of next to 0. So no thanks! The inherent biases of defence forums are also quite strong and prevalent. They are good for exchanging views and having debates.....not for collating hard data and evidence...especially on divisive issues regarding national interest etc.



That's all well and good, but until you find a 3rd party neutral source....this is simply your opinion on the matter....and I will treat it as such.

Yes we read the Pew Report when it was published, it was very amusing and we also know who was contracted to carry out the report! look obviously your not going to believe me, you can live in the notion that 70% of Bangladeshis look at india favorably or you could visit Bangladesh and see for yourself (people will be polite)....just a suggestion.

 

[Nilgiri]

Yes we read the Pew Report when it was published, it was very amusing and we also know who was contracted to carry out the report! look obviously your not going to believe me, you can live in the notion that 70% of Bangladeshis look at india favorably or you could visit Bangladesh and see for yourself (people will be polite)....just a suggestion.

So if only 20% or so of Bangladeshis are supportive of India and the "vast majority really really dislike india" according to you....then why are 100 million or so adult working Bangladeshis not rising up to overthrow the Awami League which is clearly pro-India. Where are the daily protests, the overthrow of the AL and the resulting filling of power vacuum by leaders who are more reflective of the views of the "vast majority"?

One would assume if a "VAST" majority of a population really really (2 really's wow!) dislike another country, especially a much larger neighbour.....then the current political situation in Bangladesh would be quite untenable. But so far SHW looks quite comfortable in her rule and the economy is chugging along nicely and there is the odd BNP/Jamati disturbance....but so far no mass movement to get rid of the pro-India leadership.....issues like reduction of transit charges, power equipment transported over B'desh to Tripura, port given to Japan instead of China, Modi visit and clear Indian influence through credit and various initiatives.....none of these are angering the "VAST" majority that "really really" hate India enough to even just go on a strike or something?

Or are they too "polite" to do anything?

 

[damiendehorn]

So if only 20% or so of Bangladeshis are supportive of India and the "vast majority really really dislike india" according to you....then why are 100 million or so adult working Bangladeshis not rising up to overthrow the Awami League which is clearly pro-India. Where are the daily protests, the overthrow of the AL and the resulting filling of power vacuum by leaders who are more reflective of the views of the "vast majority"?

One would assume if a "VAST" majority of a population really really (2 really's wow!) dislike another country, especially a much larger neighbour.....then the current political situation in Bangladesh would be quite untenable. But so far SHW looks quite comfortable in her rule and the economy is chugging along nicely and there is the odd BNP/Jamati disturbance....but so far no mass movement to get rid of the pro-India leadership.....issues like reduction of transit charges, power equipment transported over B'desh to Tripura, port given to Japan instead of China, Modi visit and clear Indian influence through credit and various initiatives.....none of these are angering the "VAST" majority that "really really" hate India enough to even just go on a strike or something?

Or are they too "polite" to do anything?

You are assuming TOO much now. Seriously, you really over-estimate the importance of india to us....

You have to understand, during the BNP era, there was a lot of corruption, people were generally feed-up with the economic miss-management, corruption etc etc, during the following election they voted for the AL not because they liked india or hated pakistan, they voted for a change in gov....the people wanted a new government, period.

In Bangladesh, people don't vote on the basis of which foreign country they support. People tend now to support a government that can best build our ECONOMY....for us the economy has become the main factor, above everything else.

Voting for either the AL or BNP gives very little indication of whether they like or dislike a particular state. The majority of the grass root of the AL dislike india, where as the AL leadership (they tend to be a lot older and have emotional attachments) love india.