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Right! So I reckon its going to be Chinese. Isn't it @Michael Corleone?

Also, anyone remember the tender we issued for light tanks and Chinese were the primary contender. Any idea how that has progressed?
 
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I really like the derivatsya, if it can be equipped with some ATGMs and 105mm guns, then it will become one of the most capable weapons systems in our army.

Yes the ZAK-57 Derivatsya (true to its name) is a radical derivative of a BMP3 chassis (Hull). The road-wheels have been modernized, modern side armor panels added (I believe this may be identical to the ones used in the T-14/15 called Afghanit). There is more discussion on the new armor here (they say they have AESA panels on all four sides of the T-14/15).

https://defense-update.com/20150509_t14-t15_analysis.html

The autocannon (and the Remote control turret) in the Derivatsiya is the largest modern Russian autocannon so far I have seen at 57mm (I could be wrong). Of course there are smaller 30mm autocannon designs by Shipunov such as the 2A42 and the 2A72 used in more compact remote control turrets for newer Russian IFV's and APC's.

Modern clean sheet Russian armor designs (T14/15, Kurganets, Bumerang) have disrupted armor design status quo radically, offering hard-to-beat challenges to Western armor designs like the M1s, Bradleys, Challengers and Leopards, not only in the ATGM capabilities, but armor-protection wise. The T-14 was offered to the Egyptians as well, we shall see what happens.

But I fear all of these ultra-modern hi-tech designs may be too expensive for users in countries such as ours and frankly too far ahead of the curve and overkill for the challenges and risks we face. We need more cost-effective and bang-for-the-buck solutions i.e. typical of garden variety armor from China, which rings true in this new RFP for light tanks as well. But a good mix (some from Russia) may be better than putting all our eggs in the China basket (no offense to our Chinese brothers).

Something that really amazes me - is that how can BA want everything in one platform? A light 20 ton tank hull will typically not have a 125mm cannon unless you configure it as a tank killer. Then you handicap it for other functions such as protection. Aluminium alloy hulls are not exactly the best protection against a 100 mm AP shell much less a 125 mm calibre one. If you have to add reactive armor and sensors for protection and survivability then you add weight and cost.

But you do need a light hull (20 tons max) for amphibious tank capabilities - that is the end-game.

As for the Sprut it feels like a souped up T55 :D

The Sprut is probably a dated design. I bet they will come up with a traditional 125mm large cannon turret on a Derivatsiya hull, that is what we largely need. Then maybe SOME with remote control ATGM and autocannon equipped Anti-air/drone turret capabilities.

By the way, this expeditionary light tank (ELT) design (Called the M8) has been on the minds of Pentagon planners too, they see it as a pretty nice export item. We could look at it, but maybe re-bore the 100/105mm cannon for Russian/Chinese ammo. It is air-droppable (just like the M551 Sheridan light tank in Vietnam) behind enemy lines using a C-130.

 
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As far as remote control turrets go, I really like this one with a kind-of-improvised SHORAD option. They are using it smaller platforms like the M-ATV and the LAV-25.

https://www.moog.com/content/sites/global/en/markets/defense/turreted-weapon-systems.html



Reconfigurable Integrated-weapons Platform (RIwP)


Rolling Arsenal

Put together by Leonardo DRS and then installed on the Stryker by the vehicle’s original manufacturer, General Dynamics Land Systems, the package includes an intimidating arsenal of weapon — and the flexibility to add more:
  • Two Hellfire missiles, capable of hitting both air and ground targets. Hellfire has not only a larger warhead than the Army’s standard Stinger anti-aircraft missile (18-20 pounds vs. 6.6) but a long range than the TOW anti-tank missiles on its M2 Bradleys and ATGM Strykers (5 miles vs. at most 2.8).
  • Four Stinger missiles for less well-armored aircraft targets, in a new quad launcher put together by Raytheon.
  • A 30mm automatic cannon, an upgraded model (M230LF) of the gun on the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter and considerably more powerful than the Bradley’s 25 mm.
  • A standard 7.62mm machinegun as backup and to kill targets that don’t merit a 30 mm round, such as slow-moving drones and infantry in the open.
  • An electronic warfare package to jam drones’ control links without having to shoot them.
  • A Rada multi-mission radar to track both air and ground targets.
What’s more, the weapons are all mounted on a multipurpose unmanned turret, Moog’s Reconfigurable Integrated-weapons Platform (RIwP, pronounced “rip”), which House said could take a wide range of alternative layouts as technology, tactics, and threats evolve. It could also be adapted to other vehicles, with Leonardo having tried a counter-drone version on an M-ATV truck.
 
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What about the armour protection level?
Problem with older Russian designs are, the level of armour protection is next to nothing, don't provide any easy way for troop exit. Trying to get out through the top hatch during a amphibious landing is suicide.

Don't know about Chinese designs. But the possible theater of operation will be heavily contested. They might have considered that during design.

Can anyone shed some light here?
well, you shouldn't even consider armor on a amphibious tank.... armored amphibious light tanks are made to stop absolute minimum... like bullets and such... and there main advantage is speed and firepower... especially high reload and accuracy
Right! So I reckon its going to be Chinese. Isn't it @Michael Corleone?

Also, anyone remember the tender we issued for light tanks and Chinese were the primary contender. Any idea how that has progressed?
i think it will be chinese.... i'm not sure but if what "you know who" said about the six regiments of tanks to be sourced from russia, i would also go russian for the light tanks... especially those with t90 125mm guns... and get a barrel/ shell making factory in bd
 
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well, you shouldn't even consider armor on a amphibious tank.... armored amphibious light tanks are made to stop absolute minimum... like bullets and such... and there main advantage is speed and firepower... especially high reload and accuracy

i think it will be chinese.... i'm not sure but if what "you know who" said about the six regiments of tanks to be sourced from russia, i would also go russian for the light tanks... especially those with t90 125mm guns... and get a barrel/ shell making factory in bd
APS on an amphibious tank should work very well but I agree they aren't supposed to be heavily armored.
 
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well, you shouldn't even consider armor on a amphibious tank.... armored amphibious light tanks are made to stop absolute minimum... like bullets and such... and there main advantage is speed and firepower... especially high reload and accuracy

Well I don't want Armata level protection on these thing either. But not being able to stop a fifty cal is simply put... absolute disgrace. That should be the bare minimum.
 
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Well I don't want a Armata level protection on these thing either. But not being able to stop even a fifty cal is simply put... absolute disgrace. That should be the bare minimum.
oh c'mon its certainly not that bad!?
let me read up on that
 
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APS on an amphibious tank should work very well but I agree they aren't supposed to be heavily armored.
Don't think BA will spend that much. They are ready to spend 1.5 million per vehicle max. Don't think Russians will sell any APS package on that price range. Indonesia is buying new BMP 3 latest version for 2 million per unit. AFAIK their package doesn't include APS.

oh c'mon its certainly not that bad!?
let me read up on that
Oh come on they are notorious. Specially the Sprut design. BMP 3 so far is the only design that provides the most protection, even that isn't combat proven.
 
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Yes the ZAK-57 Derivatsya (true to its name) is a radical derivative of a BMP3 chassis (Hull). The road-wheels have been modernized, modern side armor panels added (I believe this may be identical to the ones used in the T-14/15 called Afghanit). There is more discussion on the new armor here (they say they have AESA panels on all four sides of the T-14/15).

https://defense-update.com/20150509_t14-t15_analysis.html

The autocannon (and the Remote control turret) in the Derivatsiya is the largest modern Russian autocannon so far I have seen at 57mm (I could be wrong). Of course there are smaller 30mm autocannon designs by Shipunov such as the 2A42 and the 2A72 used in more compact remote control turrets for newer Russian IFV's and APC's.

Modern clean sheet Russian armor designs (T14/15, Kurganets, Bumerang) have disrupted armor design status quo radically, offering hard-to-beat challenges to Western armor designs like the M1s, Bradleys, Challengers and Leopards, not only in the ATGM capabilities, but armor-protection wise. The T-14 was offered to the Egyptians as well, we shall see what happens.

But I fear all of these ultra-modern hi-tech designs may be too expensive for users in countries such as ours and frankly too far ahead of the curve and overkill for the challenges and risks we face. We need more cost-effective and bang-for-the-buck solutions i.e. typical of garden variety armor from China, which rings true in this new RFP for light tanks as well. But a good mix (some from Russia) may be better than putting all our eggs in the China basket (no offense to our Chinese brothers).

Something that really amazes me - is that how can BA want everything in one platform? A light 20 ton tank hull will typically not have a 125mm cannon unless you configure it as a tank killer. Then you handicap it for other functions such as protection. Aluminium alloy hulls are not exactly the best protection against a 100 mm AP shell much less a 125 mm calibre one. If you have to add reactive armor and sensors for protection and survivability then you add weight and cost.

But you do need a light hull (20 tons max) for amphibious tank capabilities - that is the end-game.



The Sprut is probably a dated design. I bet they will come up with a traditional 125mm large cannon turret on a Derivatsiya hull, that is what we largely need. Then maybe SOME with remote control ATGM and autocannon equipped Anti-air/drone turret capabilities.

By the way, this expeditionary light tank (ELT) design (Called the M8) has been on the minds of Pentagon planners too, they see it as a pretty nice export item. We could look at it, but maybe re-bore the 100/105mm cannon for Russian/Chinese ammo. It is air-droppable (just like the M551 Sheridan light tank in Vietnam) behind enemy lines using a C-130.


If I am not wrong, Afghanit is an hard measure APS, that tracks and intercepts incoming projectiles,not really a side armor, in that sense.

Btw, I didn’t know that the T14/15 is equipped with AESA radar. Damn, they are even more juiced up than our air force lol. Derivatsya seems like a bang for the buck type of vehicle, esp when it comes to its intended role of air defence. I read somewhere that these 57mm guns have very kill probability similar to SAMs, especially sub sonic projectiles.

1 good thing about the T14/15/etc type armoued vehicle is that they are modular and the parts are streamlined. This was hardly the case for other type of Russian armoured vehicles. Really helps with the logistics and turnaround time for either preventive or corrective maintenance.

I agree with your that these war machines are expensive for us to run and maintain, especially given the fact that Bangladesh do not have any existential threats. However, i would definitely prefer having t15s in our arsenal though. Not only does it have exceptional firepower, it increases troop survival rate exponentially with its rws and hard kill systems. If a fight takes place in a urban or built up area, this is the vehicle I would feel the most safest in.

I feel like BA is focusing on the amphibious part rather than the armour or survivality part. Bangladesh being a riverine country has its disadvantages as well. We already have a shortage of bridges and if they are blown it will seriously impede our mobility. Recently the army has been active in purchasing LCUs as they have released a few tenders for it.

I have a theory about this purchase. Most light tanks are used marines or airborne troops who use them and act as shock troops. I don’t think BA intends to use them as a main fighting vehicle but rather use them to storm from riverbanks and establish defensive position in order for the main amour and infantry to arrive and retake the area. I think they are using 105/125mm guns for cost reductions as the inclusion of ATGM on this vehicle is not clear yet.
 
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1 good thing about the T14/15/etc type armoured vehicle is that they are modular and the parts are streamlined. This was hardly the case for other type of Russian armoured vehicles. Really helps with the logistics and turnaround time for either preventive or corrective maintenance.

Yes that is the exciting part about the T14/15 designs, even the commander, [gunner/comm./nav. expert] and driver all ride in the front part of the vehicle in a separate blastproof pod. Which is the safest part with the thickest armor against the glacis plate.

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I agree with your that these war machines are expensive for us to run and maintain, especially given the fact that Bangladesh do not have any existential threats. However, i would definitely prefer having t15s in our arsenal though. Not only does it have exceptional firepower, it increases troop survival rate exponentially with its rws and hard kill systems. If a fight takes place in a urban or built up area, this is the vehicle I would feel the most safest in.

Yeah T14 unit cost is estimated at USD7.5 million a copy. Not cheap. That is why they are also looking at adding these Prima Donna glamour high-tech whizbang features (sensors, auto loaders, countermeasures) into modernized T64's and T72's which will turn out to be a lot cheaper. Armata is far larger/expensive than those two tanks and induction in large numbers may be foolish, especially when this design exceeds M1 and Leopard specs by quite a bit. The Russian designers outdid themselves, literally. :-)

Here are some of the future T-64B version called 'Bulat'
bulat03l.jpg


Here is another recent disclosure for a modernized Ukrainian T64, which mimics the design of the t14
12967357_856962964431530_809462644151131274_o.jpg


For a T15, which will also be quite expensive, is also heavy at 48 tons. For us it will be a liability because half of our bridges will not support it, like the Indians had their problem with their heavy Arjun tanks. The protection is almost overkill, (from wiki),
"The T-15 has "an unprecedented level of armor protection," including improved passive steel and ceramic composite plate armor and a slat armor cage at the rear. Its new Malakhit (Malachite) ERA is claimed to protect against ATGMs like the FGM-148 Javelin and Missile Moyenne Portée (MMP) and 120 mm tank rounds like the German DM53/DM63 and American M829A3 APFSDS sabots. In addition to hard-kill and soft-kill APS, the developer uses a special paint that significantly reduces the vehicle's infrared signature. The floor is reinforced with an additional armor plate for counter-mine and counter-IED protection, and it has a jamming system to detonate radio-controlled anti-tank mines. The T-15 has an NBC protection system.[1]"

So for us, if we want a tracked platform, the best choice will be a Kurganets 25, which is the 25-ton modular IFV and APC. The Kurganets-25 variants will gradually replace various tracked Russian amphibious BMP and BMD armored platforms.

If we want wheeled IFV and APC, then the choice is the Bumerang and in the same weight range. These are the successors for the BTR-80 type platform which we have numbering near a thousand.

For a country like ours - Kurganets and Bumerang will be a heck of a lot cheaper and simpler to operate/maintain (and even assemble/manufacture locally) compared to something like the T15 (especially in larger numbers).

Kurganets 25 Amphibian IFV/APC
4mayrehearsal_10.jpg
4mayrehearsal_17.jpg

m02016051000013.jpg


Bumerang Amphibian AFV (notice the rotating and positionable prop shrouds in the rear).
1024px-4mayrehearsal_21.jpg

1024px-4mayrehearsal_24.jpg


Future Bumerang versions could include one with a large gun turret (100mm up) like the Italian B1 Centauro.
1024px-Centauro01.JPEG


Or like the new Centauro version Centauro II
screenshot-www.youtube.com-2018.07.27-18-06-00.jpg


Or like the Japanese JGSDF Type 16 Maneuver Combat Vehicle
1024px-JGSDF_Type_16.jpg


Why a wheeled tank, one might ask?

Well for starters - they are far faster than tracked vehicles and much more maneuverable. Some of these vehicles have a 125mm gun but most use 105 mm rounds. Using sabot and APFSDS rounds your hits may be just as effective, not to mention with special remote control rounds, you can even go around bends. But yes, cost is a huge barrier.

I feel like BA is focusing on the amphibious part rather than the armour or survivality part. Bangladesh being a riverine country has its disadvantages as well. We already have a shortage of bridges and if they are blown it will seriously impede our mobility. Recently the army has been active in purchasing LCUs as they have released a few tenders for it.

Well if we plan to buy the Kurganets and Bumerang platforms, we should plan on designing the LCUs with those and other platforms in mind. 25 tons in weight each and 26 feet length X 10 feet wide etc. and 2-5 per LCU depending on size of LCU. But both platforms are amphibious capable and will fulfill the Bangladesh tender requirement.

I have a theory about this purchase. Most light tanks are used marines or airborne troops who use them and act as shock troops. I don’t think BA intends to use them as a main fighting vehicle but rather use them to storm from riverbanks and establish defensive position in order for the main amour and infantry to arrive and retake the area. I think they are using 105/125mm guns for cost reductions as the inclusion of ATGM on this vehicle is not clear yet.

Using ATGM as artillery is quite expensive, not to mention field maintenance for launchers is neither easy nor cheap. You are absolutely right that this is the doctrine that is driving the purchase of these 'light amphibian tanks'.
 
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Today 41 pilots from the Bangladesh Army graduated from the Army Aviation Basic Course-10.

59285755_719445198453025_3606318381562593280_n.jpg
 
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Yeah T14 unit cost is estimated at USD7.5 million a copy. Not cheap. That is why they are also looking at adding these Prima Donna glamour high-tech whizbang features (sensors, auto loaders, countermeasures) into modernized T64's and T72's which will turn out to be a lot cheaper. Armata is far larger/expensive than those two tanks and induction in large numbers may be foolish, especially when this design exceeds M1 and Leopard specs by quite a bit. The Russian designers outdid themselves, literally. :-)
the tank factory has said that prices are high right now because only a part of the factory is tooled for making the new tank and so are the people who make them... very few... also new tech so the price is steep... but they intend to slowly retool the factory for complete t14 production and move t90 production to a smaller factory the price is estimated to come down to 3.7-4 million a piece... not much from latest variants of t90...
problem is there is less investment rn in retooling factory... part of sanctions i guess
 
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