What's new

Babur praised South-Asian caste system as an advantage

Don't worry, we'll set up a refugee camp in Dolmen Mall for you when the Hindus burn your houses down.

Make sure it is next to the food court.


@xeuss your masters approve of your behaviour. Maybe they'll spare you the beating.

Stuff we have to do from time to time to keep our houses from being burnt down. It's like a monthly premium on an insurance policy.

Bad mouthing Pakistanis is always appreciated by all sections of society in India. Thanks for giving me this opportunity.
 
.
Till which period? Quoting from Wikipedia -

It sounds about right (17th - 18th century)....after the stuff I mentioned really started to kick in

Comparing to India we had 12% in 1947.

Yes largely because of (arguably on purpose) total non-attention to it by the British colonialists. I am not giving them any free pass here....but its not like Qing empire in China for example was doing much better either. Left to own devices its very unlikely (in my estimation) a Mughal or Maratha empire or whatever domestic empire of enough scope and size in India (to rally against any colonial power) would have created a mass literacy movement and huge breakthrough. It needs a big branch in hypotheticals for sake of argument....lot of things going right. It would have been better than colonisation thats for sure, but how much better....is matter of debate, it would depend on very many factors up in the air.

Also remember mere basic literacy rate is not a total picture of education either (and today's India is quite striking and continuing example of this along with developing world in general)...though its generally correlated.

That's a highly debatable part but I see it this way - most of the Indians who had served under the Mughals end up being Muslims, that's why we see a lot of Ms Rajputs in and around Delhi to this day, education needed not to be neutral - it was not in Europe, they could have added Islamic themes under it and the resistance of downtrodden is usually minimal - like we see in the missionary activities in tribals.

Thats the thing "islamic themes" would have faced resistance since it would bring some form of compulsion (if you want families to send children to it away from say helping in the fields or household).

That changes the equilibrium drasitcally from ideally expansive and secular public education (with freedom for private religious schools as well) that made the hallmark of European enlightenment regd education. It thus would bring things we cannot really model and project that well.

Till that point Japan was closed. Heck, they even traced and burnt down the Christians till that point but when the Japan was opened forcefully, they immediately realised the need of change and abolished danka system, patronised Shintoism, persecuted Buddhist dogmas - as a result Buddhism was reformed and later devolved into Zen Buddhism. Not only this, they continuously sent their men to Europe to learn their ways, India was much richer than this, what stopped us (collectively) to do this?

The geography should be apparent as to why Japan was able to easily unite and stay united in very homogeneous way (both in size of land, orientation of land, lack of flat land and relative isolation w.r.t major world geogprahy..and existence as island group on top).

Indian river systems and agricultural output on other hand are many many times the size of Japan, thus many times the historic total wealth and thus many times the attraction for every invader or domestic polity churn. Not to mention its a huge landmass connected especially to Persia and Central asia by large broad access to both for trade and invasion.

Japan and India are simply not comparable...given the basic throughput flux that one can expect simply by the geography.

Indian subcontinent itself is a very very unique case study for civilisation, polity and culture and both promotion and defense of those 3.

India was a trade point that too very active one, François Bernier was a European physician to Mughals not the other way round, Mughals imported arms from England, not the other way round.

Not sure where you want to go with that. By the time of the mughals, things in India had reached somewhat of a stasis much like the ottoman empire. There was not much suitable churn and revolutions going on like in Europe that would ultimately produce a strong winning formula for human and then industrial and scientific development and sustained breakout.

It was the regular thing to be found for vast time and space of humankind's history. This final tier breakout needed lot of different things to happen. It happened in Europe and thus they get the naming rights and most influence on the whole thing to this day (case in point I am using a European script and European language to type this to you...and you back to me).

Rest of world there wasnt enough, the wood was too damp and the sparks were too limited to create the fire. It needs lot of backward revision and hypotheticals of making that wood more dry and what would be needed for more sparks for the fire to catch like it did...and its somewhat a futile subject to really get into since its way upstream now and we are downstream and better to implement things that work well in our optimised way than focus too much on what could have been if only A B and C happened etc.
 
.
By the time of the mughals, things in India had reached somewhat of a stasis much like the ottoman empire.
Though I agree with the rest of your post but even this scenario would have been preferred over what actually happened.

Edit : I meant the Ottomans reformed eventually starting from the Tanzimat.
 
. .
Though I agree with the rest of your post but even this scenario would have been preferred over what actually happened.

Yes I would have preferred a domestic empire...say around Qing-like in scope but the equivalent for us....continuation of Mughal would have been fine..or replacement with Marathas etc or some new alternative altogether....as long as either kept good sense of perspective and stability (to the sensitivities of different peoples that populate it as best they can...with enough concrete to bind together too)...and sustained that basic recipe for that to keep the landmass fairly united as far as possible....and not have areas for foreign powers to "seed" initially and then use as launchpads pitting brother against brother on this here land.

Eventually they would have played catch up (I feel) when things were visibly so dissonant with the military power European colonial powers could exert at will and force terms of trade in awful ways (like they did with Qing China)....so neither would we have had such a pitiful state of matters in the 20th century (esp first half) nor wrecked by something as awful as partition (imo). Hopefully as early as possible.

But finding and basing that hypothetical is the hard bit given its so specific and cocooned in conception given the vast size and exposure of India.

Bringing in Japan is actually apt contrast imo. They had some pretty extreme xenophobia to begin with and the geography and isolation lent itself well to it naturally (unlike India). So when they got the first major warning call of how behind they were, they simply realised they needed to start the copy paste job as far as possible...and they could actually exert this fast if you study Meiji era. There was no need for colonialism at all because there simply was no sustained initiation point (of enough weakness like first domino to fall) that would serve as breakout/takeover (domino chain falling).

But put Japan somewhere like say where Afghanistan is today, and you get totally different picture of things happening. So many things are connected to basic geography in how cultures and histories turn out, evolve and are downstream today, its uncanny.

EDIT:

would have been preferred over what actually happened.

specifically what I said:

It would have been better than colonisation thats for sure, but how much better....is matter of debate, it would depend on very many factors up in the air.
 
.
But put Japan somewhere like say where Afghanistan is today, and you get totally different picture of things happening.
But if we put Afghanistan where Japan is, will it evolve to the same way as Japan? The Manila was captured, that too was an Island far away in east.
Secondly, first Japanese to go for an official visit of western world was Hasekura Rokuemon Tsunenaga, in the same timeline when Portuguese were capturing Indian ships under Jahangir, the Mughals were willfully ignoring the threat and the Japanese were taking great pains to study them. That extreme xenophobia was a direct result of that studying imo.
 
.
Make sure it is next to the food court.




Stuff we have to do from time to time to keep our houses from being burnt down. It's like a monthly premium on an insurance policy.

Bad mouthing Pakistanis is always appreciated by all sections of society in India. Thanks for giving me this opportunity.


Sure, whatever you have to do to earn your dog meal of the day.
 
.
Babur was also homosexual or at least bisexual. Let's take his opinions less than seriously.
Expressing love for same sex didnt necessarily mean homosexuality in Central Asian culture of that time but a platonic thing. In case you dont know persian poetry the literal translation with no background on Central Asian culture can be misleading..
They expressed love for everything they had an emotional conenction for.. This includes flora and fauna,birds, young children, adult men/women, fruits, drink/food etc.
If you go to Pakistan you would sometimes see men holding hands , they are not homosexuals but fraternal friends but even its glimpse would be misleading for any outsider..Similar analogy holds for culture of that time reflected in persian poetry being understood out of context..
Some say Ayaz was sex slave of Mehmud after reading similar poetry but theres little truth to it.Mehmood was a beloved man for Mehmud who loved him for his qualities and was ready to give life for him.. isqe(love) has many forms in this part of the world that are outlandish to alien cultures and this should not be confused with dancing boys of Afghanistan.
 
Last edited:
.
But if we put Afghanistan where Japan is, will it evolve to the same way as Japan?

Sure (imo)....root homo sapiens "ingredients" are very very alike...its one species after all.

My theory is that geography imprint (combined with time and certain inertial drift factors) is one big thing that creates lot of differences we see. Never has the interaction of these differences (and all the study and discussion it creates both positive and negative, both true and untrue..and all in between) been so broad and intense either since this modern age.

There are lot of other perturbations (stuff that impacts things as big and vague as society "psyche" and sometimes as minute as 5HT receptor tendencies in a population and how this all changes with time too) that make for a long convo, but I won't get into those here...but holding all these things equal, I say largely people turn out the same.

The Manila was captured, that too was an Island far away in east.

Yah but pinoys had their very different flux of experience to Japanese (for example what was relation of the Chinese empire "domino" influence to Japan compared to PH islands in basic setup during crucial iron age and post iron age era)...again it creates different specific unique environment.

The biggest civilisations (largely dictated by river valley productivity and size) and those in clearest proximity/aegis to them simply had advantages that other "off the beaten path" ones didnt have.

A big exception is of course the new world, where things largely stayed pretty neolithic for the most part (around the biggest river valleys of note)...though this is large ongoing study and analysis as to why.

Secondly, first Japanese to go for an official visit of western world was Hasekura Rokuemon Tsunenaga, in the same timeline when Portuguese were capturing Indian ships under Jahangir, the Mughals were willfully ignoring the threat and the Japanese were taking great pains to study them. That extreme xenophobia was a direct result of that studying imo.

Well the xenophobia precedes that by far in Japanese case (I refer to the interaction with China earlier...it had its waxing but also waning at great consequence on the Japanese especially being the smaller population...the episodes of these are well known to the Japanese especially that study their history well). The very name Nippon/Nihon means Eastern kingdom (in relation to.....you guessed it) since the sun rises in the east (land of the rising sun etc etc)....for a reason.

Probably none comes to mind more than the (much storied) attempted mongol invasions (since by this time Mongols had taken over China) of Japan. Though Japan staved it off (by what they refer to as essentially divine intervention given the odds)...it created a massive psyche in Japan I would think, of basically confirmation bias that they were island people that should remain island people...no matter what the big guys to the west (shared with Korea too) thought of the eccentrisms and them being "bandits" and "pirates".

This is also large part why Japan continued the shogunate system as long as they did (during the bulk of their formative medieval period) but did not remove the emperor (who served something like a nominal but important unifying "pope" for the greater polity/nation).

You seem to be quite fascinated with Japan btw. Its a very interesting topic and country to me as well. Again no country quite like it...its very unique set up.
 
. . .
it created a massive psyche in Japan I would think, of basically confirmation bias that they were island people that should remain island people...no matter what the big guys to the west (shared with Korea too) thought of the eccentrisms and them being "bandits" and "pirates".
In Japan, an ambivalent tone was set early in its relationship with China. Shōtoku Taishi (574–622), Prince Regent of Japan, is famous for having sent a letter to the Emperor of China starting with the words: "The Emperor of the land where the sun rises sends a letter to the Emperor of the land where the sun sets to ask if you are healthy" (日出處天子致書日沒處天子無恙云云). This is commonly believed as the origin of the name Nihon (source of the sun), although the actual characters for Nihon (日本) were not used.

Not long after this, however, Japan remodeled its entire state and administrative apparatus on the Chinese system under the Taika Reform (645), the beginning of a period of Chinese influence on many aspects of Japanese culture until Imperial Japanese embassies to China were abolished in 894.

In 1401, during the Muromachi period (室町時代), the shōgun Yoshimitsu (足利義満) restarted the lapsed tribute system (1401), describing himself in a letter to the Chinese Emperor as "Your subject, the King of Japan" while also a subject of the Japanese Emperor. The benefit of the tribute system was a profitable trade. The trade was called Kangō[31] trade (means tally trade[31]) and Japanese products were traded for Chinese goods. This relationship ended with the last envoy of Japanese monk Sakugen Shūryō in 1551,[32][33] which was Ashikaga Yoshiteru's era, including a 20 years suspension by Ashikaga Yoshimochi.[clarification needed] These embassies were sent to China on 19 occasions.

During the Mongol-led Yuan dynasty of China, Japan thought of China as no longer a genuine Chinese land.[34] Subsequently, Japan often used the names "China" and "Huaxia" to refer to itself.[34]

In the years 1592–1593 Toyotomi Hideyoshi, having unified Japan, tried to conquer Korea as a prelude to conquering Ming China. The attempt to conquer "all under heaven" (itself a sinocentric concept identifying China as "the world") ended in failure.

Japanese responses to Sinocentric concepts have not always been so straightforward. The Mongol invasions in 1274 and 1281 evoked a national consciousness of the role of the kamikaze (神風) in defeating the enemy. Less than fifty years later (1339–43), Kitabatake Chikafusa wrote the Jinnō Shōtōki (神皇正統記, 'Chronicle of the Direct Descent of the Divine Sovereigns') emphasizing the divine descent of the imperial line. The Jinnō Shōtōki provided a Shinto view of history stressing the divine nature of Japan and its spiritual supremacy over China and India.

In the Tokugawa era, the study of Kokugaku (国学) arose as an attempt to reconstruct and recover the authentic native roots of Japanese culture, particularly Shintoism, excluding later elements borrowed from China. In 1657, Tokugawa Mitsukuni established the Mito School, which was charged with writing a history of Japan as a perfect exemplar of a "nation" under Confucian thought, with the emphasis on unified rule by the emperors and respect for the imperial court and Shinto deities.

In an ironic affirmation of the spirit of Sinocentrism, claims were even heard that the Japanese, not the Chinese, were the legitimate heirs of Chinese culture. Reasons included that the Imperial House of Japan never died out comparing to the rise and fall of Chinese monarchs in the past, and that Japan was free of barbarism like Qing Dynasty's forced adoption of Manchu queue and clothing on Han Chinese after 1644. Combined with Shintoism, came the concept of "Shinkoku/the Divine Kingdom (神國). In the early Edo period, neo-Confucianist Yamaga Sokō asserted that Japan was superior to China in Confucian terms and more deserving of the name "Chūgoku". Other scholars picked this up, notably Aizawa Seishisai, an adherent of the Mito School, in his political tract Shinron (新論 New Theses) in 1825.

As a country that had much to gain by eclipsing Chinese power in East Asia, Japan in more recent times has perhaps been most ardent in identifying and demolishing what it dismissively calls Chūka shisō (中華思想), loosely meaning "Zhonghua ideology". One manifestation of Japanese resistance to Sinocentrism was the insistence for many years in the early 20th century on using the name Shina (支那) for China, based on the Western word 'China', in preference to Chūgoku (中国 Central Country) advocated by the Chinese themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism#Japan
So, I think you're broadly right.
Though Vietnam also avoided Mongol conquests but yup, geography + psyche + historical experiences, all contributed into later development.
You seem to be quite fascinated with Japan btw. Its a very interesting topic and country to me as well. Again no country quite like it...its very unique set up.
Haha, I like history generally but you're correct I am fascinated (primarily because of anime).. My username is Japanese too.:D:D
 
.
Say people who are followers of a foreign origin Arab religion, Arab culture, keep Arab names and even bow to pray looking towards Arabia and dwell in the glory of Turkish rulers of their land. The same Arab and Turks who pay scant regard for these Hindi Muslims. Where is your self respect and dignity guys ??


First of all, your post is so disrespectful to a good percentage of pdf community. Well that doesn’t surprise me, after all, you’re Modi mindset.
Let’s come to the point, does that really matter where this religion started from? Your tunnel vision wouldn’t be able to understand it. The religion we follow and the prophet we follow wasn’t merely sent to Muslims but the whole world so it’s irrelevant wether he was an Arab or non- Arab.
Secondly, this religion works like a bridge between all the other Muslim countries. They share plethora of cultural and religious values. Lastly, my Islam is a religion beyond caste, color, creed, etc unlike your extremist mindset.
Your hatred speaks high about your character & your mindset.
 
.
In 1929, he recommended his readers to convert to Islam but I think later the Mulla hegemony (Madudi and likes) and caste system in the Muslims themselves appalled him. Similarly, from Sikhism.

Ambedkar had unreal expectations. His story of how he went to Sikhs and Buddhists is very interesting. Seems almost cartoon-like.


Maududi was an opportunist. He opposed Pakistan right uptil Partition and when he realized ke ab India mein uski daal nahi galni he jumped ship.

You keep trashing Maulana Maududi's reputation. He was a mu'min and gifted person. Anyone who read his books or tafsir would be awestruck by his brilliance.

He made mistakes and apologized for his wrong conclusions after coming to Pakistan. He made amends by pushing strong Islamic identity in Pakistan and giving us some of the greatest scholars we had like Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani (who read Quaid's janazah) and Dr. Israr Ahmad (who had a huge affect on ISI, military, media, journalists, scholars, and even Imran Khan.)

Expressing love for same sex didnt necessarily mean homosexuality in Central Asian culture of that time but a platonic thing. In case you dont know persian poetry the literal translation with no background on Central Asian culture can be misleading..
They expressed love for everything they had an empotinal conenction with.. This includes animals young children, adult men/women fruits drink/food etc.
If you go to Pakistan you would sometimes see men holding hands , they are not homosexuals but fraternal friends but even its glimpse would be misleading for any outsider..Similar analogy holds for culture of that time reflected in persian poetry being understood out of context..
Some say Ayaz was sex slave of Mehmud after reading similar poetry but theres little truth to it.Mehmood was a beloved man for Mehmud who loved him for his qualities and was ready to give life for him.. isqe(love) has many forms in this part of the world that are outlandish to alien cultures and this should not be confused with dancing boys of Afghanistan.

These people do not understand Islamic culture. They would think that when we talk about wine and wine-pourers, we are discussing alcohol. They think when we talk about going crazy in ecstasy, somewhere it is a drug or we need psychiatric treatment.

The nuances of our culture are lost on such people.
 
.
It's very useful if you are a ruler who wants to exploit the resources/people of the land for personal/dynastic benefit. It's a terrible curse if you want to engage in an exercise of nation building. Something the Mughals, and most other rulers, were clearly not interested in.
 
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom