Azerbaijan's JF-17 Thunder Acquisition: Updates & Discussions

[Dreamer.]

War against soviets many of the weapons came from Israel
2007 Earthquake
2013 there was a leak many of international news agencies reported about israel selling weapons to M.E countries as well as Pakistan

There was also news about india helping pakistan in the earthquake which did not happen in 2007. I think pakistan did not accept, but it's the thought that counts, right? I am sure they have also helped us many more times aswell if you only dig through the news. Perhaps we can buy indian made Su-30 and T-90 at cheaper price compared to russia. Or else look at Tejas or the Arjun or even the LCH in place of T-129.

Isreal is india's ally not pakistan's. They have helped them immensely in kashmir as well as selling advanced weaponry to their military.

That's absolutely incorrect. Israel was one of the countries where the americans bought captured soviet weapons, during the cold war the americans were literally shopping all around the world for soviet small arms and supplying those to various militias in south america, east asia and in afghanistan. As far as Israel was concerned, it didnt matter where these were sold, as long as they didn't end up in the hands of palestinians or lebanese.

The rest of what you say is just untrue.

Correct. During Afghan war in 80's CIA wanted to provide mujahideen with soviet made weapons. Israel is one of the places they got them. Isrealis gave them to CIA to help their biggest ally US of A defeat the soviets, not to help us or the afghans even.

 

[wulff]

There was also news about india helping pakistan in the earthquake which did not happen in 2007. I think pakistan did not accept, but it's the thought that counts, right? I am sure they have also helped us many more times aswell if you only dig through the news. Perhaps we can buy indian made Su-30 and T-90 at cheaper price compared to russia. Or else look at Tejas or the Arjun or even the LCH in place of T-129.

Isreal is india's ally not pakistan's. They have helped them immensely in kashmir as well as selling advanced weaponry to their military.


Correct. During Afghan war in 80's CIA wanted to provide mujahideen with soviet made weapons. Israel is one of the places they got them. Isrealis gave them to CIA to help their biggest ally US of A defeat the soviets, not to help us or the afghans even.

Funny thing i remember is that even the Indians had sold the americans weapons which they knew were going to be used against their allies the Soviets in Afghanistan. Something that led to the remark by i think Kissinger, that the indians would even sell their mothers for money (his words, not mine)

I guess that's one solid reason to claim Indians have helped Pakistan in the Afghan war in the 80s

OK PEOPLE. Enough said can we move on. Agree to disagree.. However @denel I strongly disagree with your assertions about the utility of JH7s for PAF. I understand the logic by which the need has been stated but barring situations where thers has been no other choice PAF has avoided one trick Ponies. The discussion is now mute as the JH7 assembly line has been wound up and PLAAF has moved on to J11 series. The JH 7 was evaluated and was gound lacking by PAF nearly 3 decades ago. The main bugbear the engine has hardly been upgraded so the platform is incapable of living upto its potential.
A

The JH-7 is indeed a one trick pony and quite obsolete now. However, the PAF still lacks a strike aircraft which can fly nap of the earth profiles and has extended range in A2G missions plus the ability to take off and land from unprepared grass strips. The mirages are soldiering on in this role for now, but soon enough they will need to be replaced.

Correct me if i am wrong here, but I dont think the JF-17 is suited for this role.

The IAF understand the value of such a low level strike aircraft, which is why they spend a fortune in upgrading their Jaguar fleet. Pakistan is mountainous territory, and so is almost all India's border with China, such aircraft are literally flying stealth machines when they fly pre-planned low level routes in such terrain. The jaguar is truly an exceptional a2g aircraft in this role, and a real threat to Pakistan's assets, especially when it approaches through mountain valleys. The investment they made upgrading the fleet was probably the best bang for the buck they ever got, after the MKI deal. The Rafale is a Jaguar on steriods in the A2G role and it really gives the IAF the best A2G platform for strike missions short of an F-35.

 

[araz]

Funny thing i remember is that even the Indians had sold the americans weapons which they knew were going to be used against their allies the Soviets in Afghanistan. Something that led to the remark by i think Kissinger, that the indians would even sell their mothers for money (his words, not mine)

I guess that's one solid reason to claim Indians have helped Pakistan in the Afghan war in the 80s



The JH-7 is indeed a one trick pony and quite obsolete now. However, the PAF still lacks a strike aircraft which can fly nap of the earth profiles and has extended range in A2G missions plus the ability to take off and land from unprepared grass strips. The mirages are soldiering on in this role for now, but soon enough they will need to be replaced.

Correct me if i am wrong here, but I dont think the JF-17 is suited for this role.

The IAF understand the value of such a low level strike aircraft, which is why they spend a fortune in upgrading their Jaguar fleet. Pakistan is mountainous territory, and so is almost all India's border with China, such aircraft are literally flying stealth machines when they fly pre-planned low level routes in such terrain. The jaguar is truly an exceptional a2g aircraft in this role, and a real threat to Pakistan's assets, especially when it approaches through mountain valleys. The investment they made upgrading the fleet was probably the best bang for the buck they ever got, after the MKI deal. The Rafale is a Jaguar on steriods in the A2G role and it really gives the IAF the best A2G platform for strike missions short of an F-35.

Isuspect PAF will retain a couple 9f squadrons of M3s/M5s for this role till 2023-25. I wonder if this is the reason for them reconsidering the J10C.
A

 

[Darth Vader]

That's absolutely incorrect. Israel was one of the countries where the americans bought captured soviet weapons, during the cold war the americans were literally shopping all around the world for soviet small arms and supplying those to various militias in south america, east asia and in afghanistan. As far as Israel was concerned, it didnt matter where these were sold, as long as they didn't end up in the hands of palestinians or lebanese.

The rest of what you say is just untrue.

You are contradicting yourself.
Pakistan military ( isi ) had build relationship with israel ( mossad ) since late 80s in Zia time, everyone involved knew where everything was coming from
Including Pakistan, israel,Uncle Sam
Jews supporting muslim in so called holy war against evil russians
Regarding israel supporting India you do know that Russia is selling engine for this bird while selling weapons to India , and russia has harmed Pakistan more than israel ever did but pakistan still trying to buy more weapons openly .

Its all about national interests and geo poltics
Why wouldnt they sell there weapons to both parties and make twice the money.

Might wanna read mossad and israels involvement in operation cyclone
Just few examples for you
FYI next time before you say others dont know what they are talking about please do little research

And Pakistan should add israels system if they can increase this birds capability as they do produce decent systems. Will only help these birds.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/84508/wikileaks-isi-chief-met-israelis-to-stop-india-attack/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1017515

There was also news about india helping pakistan in the earthquake which did not happen in 2007. I think pakistan did not accept, but it's the thought that counts, right? I am sure they have also helped us many more times aswell if you only dig through the news. Perhaps we can buy indian made Su-30 and T-90 at cheaper price compared to russia. Or else look at Tejas or the Arjun or even the LCH in place of T-129.

Isreal is india's ally not pakistan's. They have helped them immensely in kashmir as well as selling advanced weaponry to their military.


Correct. During Afghan war in 80's CIA wanted to provide mujahideen with soviet made weapons. Israel is one of the places they got them. Isrealis gave them to CIA to help their biggest ally US of A defeat the soviets, not to help us or the afghans even.

 

[wulff]

You are contradicting yourself.
Pakistan military ( isi ) had build relationship with israel ( mossad ) since late 80s in Zia time, everyone involved knew where everything was coming from
Including Pakistan, israel,Uncle Sam
Jews supporting muslim in so called holy war against evil russians
Regarding israel supporting India you do know that Russia is selling engine for this bird while selling weapons to India , and russia has harmed Pakistan more than israel ever did but pakistan still trying to buy more weapons openly .

Its all about national interests and geo poltics
Why wouldnt they sell there weapons to both parties and make twice the money.

Might wanna read mossad and israels involvement in operation cyclone
Just few examples for you
FYI next time before you say others dont know what they are talking about please do little research

And Pakistan should add israels system if they can increase this birds capability as they do produce decent systems. Will only help these birds.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/84508/wikileaks-isi-chief-met-israelis-to-stop-india-attack/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1017515

I see you are repeating your idiotic claims again and again. For example, can you tell me exactly what system Pakistan brought from Israel that needed the israelis to buy parts from the British? Go ahead, name the weapon or radar system that you think was secretly exported by Israel to Pakistan. If you can't then re-read my reply on the previous page that you seem to have failed to fully comprehend. I will repeat it again in easier language for you: Israel exported those parts to the americans because israeli firms happen to be suppliers for many american weapon systems. One of those weapons is the F-16 Block 52.

your tribune article is a funny sensationalist piece. If Gen Pasha "had been in direct touch with the Israelis" over a possible terrorist threat, then it could have been as simple as a phone call made to clear the air and warn them that a threat may arise which has nothing to do with the Pakistan government. A reasonable way to de-escalate possibility of tensions with a nuclear power. The americans and soviets have such lines of communication, as do the americans and the chinese, and surprise... india and pakistan also have such channels of communication. It dont make them best buddies.

the rest of your post i wont bother about.

 

[Darth Vader]

I see you are repeating your idiotic claims again and again. For example, can you tell me exactly what system Pakistan brought from Israel that needed the israelis to buy parts from the British? Go ahead, name the weapon or radar system that you think was secretly exported by Israel to Pakistan. If you can't then re-read my reply on the previous page that you seem to have failed to fully comprehend. I will repeat it again in easier language for you: Israel exported those parts to the americans because israeli firms happen to be suppliers for many american weapon systems. One of those weapons is the F-16 Block 52.

your tribune article is a funny sensationalist piece. If Gen Pasha "had been in direct touch with the Israelis" over a possible terrorist threat, then it could have been as simple as a phone call made to clear the air and warn them that a threat may arise which has nothing to do with the Pakistan government. A reasonable way to de-escalate possibility of tensions with a nuclear power. The americans and soviets have such lines of communication, as do the americans and the chinese, and surprise... india and pakistan also have such channels of communication. It dont make them best buddies.

the rest of your post i wont bother about.

Please keep living in your shell of denial ,
"You cant fix stupid"

 

[wulff]

a meme cat, okay.
That is an argument i cannot counter. you got me. lol

 

[Trango Towers]

War against soviets many of the weapons came from Israel
2007 Earthquake
2013 there was a leak many of international news agencies reported about israel selling weapons to M.E countries as well as Pakistan

They didnt help pakistan but israel actively supplied weapons for the mujahdeen with full knowledge of gen zia. They did it foe their own good

 

[Darth Vader]

They didnt help pakistan but israel actively supplied weapons for the mujahdeen with full knowledge of gen zia. They did it foe their own good

LETS USE THE TERM SUPPLIED instead of help

Pakistan Army has dealt with them in past couple of times already directly and indirectly.
And i would say no harm in using these systems for exporting this bird as it will just generate more revenue for pakistan.

This is quite a game , politics. There are no permanent friends and no permanent eneimes ,
only permanent interests.
William clay.

 

[wulff]

Isuspect PAF will retain a couple 9f squadrons of M3s/M5s for this role till 2023-25. I wonder if this is the reason for them reconsidering the J10C.
A

I dont think it would be a very wise move to procure the J-10C at this time, when the next version of J-10 is just around the corner. Consider that the J-10A first flew in 1997, the J-10S in 2003, J-10B in 2008 and the J-10C in 2013, it indicates a well planned iterative development program, and my belief is that the next iteration should show up sometime in 2019, certainly no later than 2020. This also fits in with the following statement of huitong:

A recent rumor (April 2016) suggested that 611 is developing another upgraded variant (J-10D?) which might feature CFTs to increase its range as well as a more powerful WS-10IPE (14t class?) turbofan engine with a stealth TVC nozzle to reduce its radar and IR signatures.

We have already seen the TVC engine, and i suspect that by now the development of the J-20's sensor suite having reached an advanced stage and the tech developed is likely to trickle down to other aircraft programs now. IMVHO the J-10D's EW suite is likely to be a big leap over that of the J-10C. Makes sense to wait for the J-10D or better still try to get the J-16.

Either way, the PAF will have its hands full with the JF-17 Block 3 for the next couple of years, untill the first squadron is stood up procurement of a completely new aircraft is highly unlikely. Once the Block 3 settles in, things should become interesting..

 

[Dreamer.]

You are contradicting yourself.
Pakistan military ( isi ) had build relationship with israel ( mossad ) since late 80s in Zia time, everyone involved knew where everything was coming from
Including Pakistan, israel,Uncle Sam
Jews supporting muslim in so called holy war against evil russians
Regarding israel supporting India you do know that Russia is selling engine for this bird while selling weapons to India , and russia has harmed Pakistan more than israel ever did but pakistan still trying to buy more weapons openly .

Its all about national interests and geo poltics
Why wouldnt they sell there weapons to both parties and make twice the money.

Might wanna read mossad and israels involvement in operation cyclone
Just few examples for you
FYI next time before you say others dont know what they are talking about please do little research

And Pakistan should add israels system if they can increase this birds capability as they do produce decent systems. Will only help these birds.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/84508/wikileaks-isi-chief-met-israelis-to-stop-india-attack/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1017515

Don't be ridiculous, just because there an israeli newspaper mentions a british report about some supposed request for permission for a component does not conclude there was any direct sale made. And as wulff has asked, name the system that was actually exported as a result of these supposed requests. Your own link states the whole thing is denied strongly by ispr.

The other link given by you and indeed the rest of your entire post is simply irrelevant and useless.

Comparing russia with israel is also quite simplistic, even though I agree that we should be carefull with russia also but that situation is poles apart than the one with israel, there is simply no comparison.

 

[Darth Vader]

Don't be ridiculous, just because there an israeli newspaper mentions a british report about some supposed request for permission for a component does not conclude there was any direct sale made. And as wulff has asked, name the system that was actually exported as a result of these supposed requests. Your own link states the whole thing is denied strongly by ispr.

The other link given by you and indeed the rest of your entire post is simply irrelevant and useless.

Comparing russia with israel is also quite simplistic, even though I agree that we should be carefull with russia also but that situation is poles apart than the one with israel, there is simply no comparison.

I am being ridiculous ?
Yes a country buys weapon systems from a country they officially dont recognise will make sure to put a neon sign board ?
Pakistan cant buy openly bcz of backlash from public itself
Most of these news come from unofficial channels only ,
even after having weapon systems how many times you actually see Pakistan officially acknowledge the weapon system ,
last years military prade being the example.

As for russia situation has started to change in last decade bcz of uncle sam but pakistan was able to seal rd engine way before that in the end its alot about money.
If you guys are too blind to see reality good on you

 

[Dreamer.]

I am being ridiculous ?
Yes a country buys weapon systems from a country they officially dont recognise will make sure to put a neon sign board ?

Hence every rumour you hear must be true. Not ridiculous at all!! LOL.
It remains for you to identify the system, so talk further when you can.

As for russia situation has started to change in last decade bcz of uncle sam but pakistan was able to seal rd engine way before that in the end its alot about money.If you guys are too blind to see reality good on you

Again you continue with simplistic statements and also irrelevant to the actual point.

The actual point is not if pakistan can or can not buy anything from israel. Actual point is that israel won't do anything to help pakistan, and will not "supply" any significant piece of equipment without a price. And for any non-significant stuff who needs israel and wouln't be worth mentioning anyways.

 

[MastanKhan]

I am being ridiculous ?
Yes a country buys weapon systems from a country they officially dont recognise will make sure to put a neon sign board ?
Pakistan cant buy openly bcz of backlash from public itself
Most of these news come from unofficial channels only ,
even after having weapon systems how many times you actually see Pakistan officially acknowledge the weapon system ,
last years military prade being the example.

As for russia situation has started to change in last decade bcz of uncle sam but pakistan was able to seal rd engine way before that in the end its alot about money.
If you guys are too blind to see reality good on you

Hi,

Kids think that every defense deal has a google search link attached with all the details---.

 

[Darth Vader]

Hi,

Kids think that every defense deal has a google search link attached with all the details---.

Its just common sense
How many times you see Pakistani armed forces brag about deals
and when it involves one of the most hated country its just common sense to keep it under wraps
in the end Israel is just a arms seller just like many other countries if Pakistan can use that to its advantage why not.
Living for the benefit of Ummah hasnt helped pakistan its has only brought loss for them would be better to be little bit selfish.