Aussies F35 will lose out to PAK FA

[ptldM3]

SU-35, it's an upgraded Flanker; no matter how much you tart it up it's still a 40 year old basic design, it's in the same class as SHornet, I would back any Euro-canards (Gripen, Rafale, Typhoon) against it let alone F-35.

The same flanker that set 27 world records between 1986-1988? Can you explain how an aircraft all of the sudden becomes a world beater just because it's airframe is a delta and it's newer? Remember the SH and SU-35 are new aircraft thus they use the latest avionics. The SH and SU-35 should be able to hold their own against any of the delts you mentioned.

Both the SH and the SU-35 have redesigned airframes which not only improve their performance but also reduce their RCS. I really don't see what all the fuse about te Typhoon is, yes it has supercruis but so does the SU-35 and yes it is manuverable but so is the SU and SU-35.

Doesn't the Typhoon have a radar detection range of 160km? and donest the SU-35 and SH have a detection range of around 400km and a very low power output?

Unless the Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen have alien technology i doubt they can walk over the SH or SU-35 as easily as you think.

 

[desiman]

hmmm interesting comments for sure, gud work guys

 

[amalakas]

http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/rtnwcm/groups/rms/documents/content/rtn_rms_ps_aim9x_datasheet.pdf

AIM-9 Sidewinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"AIM-9X Sidewinder The AIM-9X is the newest member of the AIM-9 Sidewinder short-range missile family in use by more than 40 nations around the world. This next-generation Sidewinder missile passed operational evaluation in November 2003 and was approved for full-rate production in May 2004."

However upon further investigation it should be noted the AIM9-X is only being looked at for mounting on hard points of the F-35.
Perhaps you could enlighten us on off bore-sight air to air thrust vectoring missiles currently in Russian inventory?

That is what I mean, plus european countries favour the asraam, that would tell me something.

As for the russian counterparts..I am afraid the west was beaten there too.. heard of the Vympel R-73 before ? and when it actually entered service ? before that missile the term high off boresight was not in the vocabulary of most flyers...

 

[amalakas]

The same flanker that set 27 world records between 1986-1988? Can you explain how an aircraft all of the sudden becomes a world beater just because it's airframe is a delta and it's newer? Remember the SH and SU-35 are new aircraft thus they use the latest avionics. The SH and SU-35 should be able to hold their own against any of the delts you mentioned.

Both the SH and the SU-35 have redesigned airframes which not only improve their performance but also reduce their RCS. I really don't see what all the fuse about te Typhoon is, yes it has supercruis but so does the SU-35 and yes it is manuverable but so is the SU and SU-35.

Doesn't the Typhoon have a radar detection range of 160km? and donest the SU-35 and SH have a detection range of around 400km and a very low power output?

Unless the Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen have alien technology i doubt they can walk over the SH or SU-35 as easily as you think.

SH ????? ??????????????

 

[Thomas]

That is what I mean, plus european countries favour the asraam, that would tell me something.

As for the russian counterparts..I am afraid the west was beaten there too.. heard of the Vympel R-73 before ? and when it actually entered service ? before that missile the term high off boresight was not in the vocabulary of most flyers...

Actually I wasn't familiar with the R-73 thanks for the info. Russian air munitions are not my strong suit. Now ask me questions on Russian tanks or small arms and I can talk all day.

As far as the ASRAAM it has been in the field longer then the AIM-9X. And it is made by BAE Systems a European company. Just as the U.S. tends to buy more from U.S. companies in defense spending. The Europeans like to buy from their own companies when possible. Which is understandable. Though some Europeans do use the AIM-9X.


back to the topic of F-35 capabilities though. Especially in regards to close in combat. This was never a conversation on who had what first. I was simply reminding people that the F-35 (or any other aircraft) doesn't need to be the most maneuverable aircraft in the world to fight off opposing thrust vectoring aircraft like the Sukhoi's. The newest generation of avionics and missiles negate the advantages of thrust vectoring. Unless of course it's Gun v Gun dog fighting. Then maneuverability plays a huge role.

 

[ptldM3]

SH ????? ??????????????

F-18 Super Hornet

 

[rubyjackass]

That is what I mean, plus european countries favour the asraam, that would tell me something.

As for the russian counterparts..I am afraid the west was beaten there too.. heard of the Vympel R-73 before ? and when it actually entered service ? before that missile the term high off boresight was not in the vocabulary of most flyers...

You are very informative. May be you should start a thread about aams, their history, manoeuvre capability of aircrafts and their counter measures to aams. Please write an article or essay. At least point to some good ones which are comprehensive enough to not need looking up several sources.


Thanks,
Ruby.

 

[amalakas]

It is interesting to note, that recent developments mean that the F35 is indeed in front of the very real threat of cancelation.

According to the latest infothat reached my ears, the entire project is rapidly approaching the limit set by Nunn-McCurdy law/ legislation or whatever.

interesting to see if the lighting ii will go the way of the commanche ... ..!!

 

[Thomas]

It is interesting to note, that recent developments mean that the F35 is indeed in front of the very real threat of cancelation.

According to the latest infothat reached my ears, the entire project is rapidly approaching the limit set by Nunn-McCurdy law/ legislation or whatever.

interesting to see if the lighting ii will go the way of the commanche ... ..!!

lol, your over reaching now.......

while the production numbers may vary. The F-35 is in absolutely no danger of being canceled. They simply have to re certify the program. The Nunn-McCurdy law requires the programs that fall under it to be reexamined and decision made if the program merits further funding or termination. In the F-35 case it is already on the road for re certification. The production line is still pumping out aircraft as we speak.

 

[amalakas]

re certification

Could have put it better myself... that re certification is a bit... iffy at best..

that plane ( however good) was never meant to be this expensive...

 

[Thomas]

Could have put it better myself... that re certification is a bit... iffy at best..

that plane ( however good) was never meant to be this expensive...

Please explain why it is "iffy at best" do you know something that the rest of us do not?

The higher program costs is not something that came out of the clear blue. Yet while the media sensationalized the cost over runs there has been no credible call within congress or the pentagon to scrap the program. Why? It is becuase the program is considered vital to the U.S. national defense.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09303.pdf

"The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is the Department of Defense’s (DOD) most complex and ambitious aircraft acquisition, seeking to simultaneously produce and field three aircraft variants for the Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, and eight international partners. The JSF is critical to our nation’s plans for recapitalizing the tactical air forces and will require a long-term commitment to very large annual funding outlays. The total expected investment is now more than $1 trillion—more than $300 billion to acquire 2,456 aircraft and $760 billion in life cycle operation and support costs, according to official program estimates."

 

[amalakas]

As I was arguing with Gambit before, I am not a repeater of press releases or any of the like.

what I know is that the decisions made on the JSF program are now a few years old. The situation has changed with 3 major factors driving developments.

1) Criticism coming from techno-minded people not just politicians
2) The world economic crisis
3) The tactical requirements as set in the world stage.

The JSF is NOT an american program, it was never meant to be, other countries have a share in developing and producing the aircraft.
This besides being a lever for growth and speedy development and assured foreign sales also means that the "board of directors" has different schooled minds than the usual all american approach.
The other participating countries are not happy on many levels.
let me list a few
1) Overall progress
2) Overall cost (first and foremost)
3) Overall mutual disclosure of key technologies involved in the program
4) Souce code development for the JSF has not been "shared source" as it was implied at the start of the project so far.
5) US has hinted that the Source codes for the planes OS will remain locked to LM and the US, something israel for example won't like
6) Only one support and repair center of the crucial RAM coating for the plane is planed (my latest info told me this) to be based in Italy alone, servicing easily what is supposed to be two of the assured customers (Turkey & Italy) one SCP (Israel) and possibly one of the traditional foreign LM large export customers (Greece). That has made none of the other members happy, neither did it make Israel or Greece as both of these two countries have a long standing requirement that their planes are serviced, maintained and updated (soft/hard) in house, for different reasons. ( Israel develops its own systems, while Greece needs to modify and update its systems differently to maintain heterogeneity with similar systems equiped and traditional rival Turkey)
7) The 4+ and 5th generation aircraft (EF2000) are maturing and showing that the battlespace is not going to be easy for the JSF alone . A lot of US decision making people have begun to realise this.
--( I was sitting in a EADS presentation for the push of the EF2000 to the Greek AF, and a very assured and detailed part of the presentation was about how the EF2000 will have no problem as a superiority fighter over the JSF when Turkey gets it over the aegean, even before its AESA is fielded, marketing ploy ?? perhaps.. but the info was convincing to a lot of air force brass in the there) ---The French have made similar claims about the rafale...

The re certification will be subject to a whole lot of factors LM is eager and desperate to see the plane through, but the partners are not impressed so far, and they are not buyers, they are strategic partners.. and the cost even for the US goverment standards is spirraling out of control.

 

[Thomas]

LM is eager and desperate to see the plane through, but the partners are not impressed so far, and they are not buyers, they are strategic partners.. and the cost even for the US goverment standards is spirraling out of control.

I think you fail to understand how strong support is with the people who hold the purse strings for the F-35. And why they are understandably upset over the cost spikes. They understand how important the F-35 is to U.S. defense. They could not say the same for the Comanche, or Crusader artillery system, ect. And while you may see public bluster over the increased costs in the end the program will continue. Even if some of the partner nations back out.

I do keep up on political issues on defense programs. And even lobby the senators and congressmen that represent where I live. Lately I have been lobbying one senator that is on the armed services committee. To push for an exemption for the F-22. So it can be exported to other nations.

 

[amalakas]

I do keep up on political issues on defense programs. And even lobby the senators and congressmen that represent where I live. Lately I have been lobbying one senator that is on the armed services committee. To push for an exemption for the F-22. So it can be exported to other nations.

Really? I can't tell how successful you attempts would be, but such a move ( albeit very hard to make, the production is almost stopped) would change a lot on the international arms market.
who wouldn't want a few F22's in their AF ?

 

[Thomas]

Really? I can't tell how successful you attempts would be, but such a move ( albeit very hard to make, the production is almost stopped) would change a lot on the international arms market.
who wouldn't want a few F22's in their AF ?

I am just one small voice in a very large crowd. I am lucky that my local senator already was a proponent of the F-22. And he is pushing for the exemption. It's still an uphill fight though. Some democrats do not want to see the production line to remain open for fears of a later push to increase U.S. F-22 procurements. The Pentagon and many senators and congressmen are in favor.

Jim Murtha was Chairman of the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense And one of the main congressmen blocking the F-22 exemption. With his recent death it might have a chance.

On a side note I thought you might like to see the 2010 defense appropriation bill. Notice the funding that is included for the F-35. Even though they knew then about the increased costs. A couple items were stricken out eventually like the F-22

http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Murtha_Unveils_FY10_DoD_Bill_07.16.2009.pdf